How do I as a Catholic refute these Muslim claims

[Servant19]

I’ll play the Catholic’s advocate here and ask for a leader of the CC quoting the New Testament as an excuse for those things?

This is the point dear friend. If the whole world became Catholic tomorrow, boasting 90% affilliation to Catholicism in every country, what would happen if someone outside the Catholic Church committed murder and would not repent or ask forgiveness?

How would justice be carried out?

The point is that the punishment will be a man-made punishment. In fact, the only reason slavery torture and capital punishment occurred in the past was because the Catholic Church had no methodology to carry out God’s will in such cases where crimes were concerned.

Society has changed from simple villages and towns to a global society of incredible complexity and there is no room for man-made “guesswork”



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[Gabriel_of_12]

Therefore, what is the punishment for wilful murder according to the Catholic Church?

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The Cathoic Church never has no prisons, torture chambers or any forms of capital punishment.

The Catholic Church obeys the commandment “thou shall not kill (murder)”.

The Catholic Church follows and obeys her master to forgive those who persecute you, because the world has persecuted our master Jesus Christ.

God is the one the only judge, the Catholic Church does not pass judgement or punishment on any murderer. She calls these criminals to repentance, before God finds them guilty on judgement day, which is an eternal punishment.

The Catholic Church offers healing and life eternal in her Lord Jesus Christ. She does not fear man who can kill the body, but we Catholics fear God who can destroy both the body and the soul.

**When you speak of punishment in the case of murder of the body, you are looking to the Ceasar’s of the world.

When you speak of eternal punishment and damnation of the murderer’s soul, you look to the Catholic Church for repentance and God’s forgiveness.

Know this however, for which would you wish to be punished for your crimes? In this life, look for Ceasar’s punishment. For eternal punishment look to the Catholic Church for answers.**
Peace be with you

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Servant19;12197140] In fact, the only reason slavery torture and capital punishment occurred in the past was because the Catholic Church had no methodology to carry out God’s will in such cases where crimes were concerned.

Slow down there Servant, that is a false post about the Catholic Church and moves off subject from the OP.

For the sake of argument here is wisdom; “The Weeds grow with the Wheat”

Peace be with you Servant
Gabriel of 12

 

[Tomdstone]

The teachings and revelations of God handed down to the Catholic Church from the original apostles has not changed.

What you suppose to be a change (slavery, torture, capital punishment) has nothing to do with my post about the scriptures changing or the teaching and revelation of Jesus Christ.

For the record; The Catholic Church has never excercised and never has the power to excercise capital punishment.

Slavery, torture and capital punishment are human inventions. The Catholic Church has educated the world on all three subjects in respect to the dignity of human life. This the Church has never changed.

Know the difference between what is the Catholic Church in the things of God, and the secular powers who may have been Catholic members giving to Ceasar what belongs to Ceasar.

Most posters fail to know this history who result in a mutilated view of Church history. In summary it is the Catholic Church who suffers for our humanity with the Ceasars.

Peace be with you

Scriptures say that slaves should be subject to their masters, which is not the teaching today. Pope Innocent IV approved the use of torture, under restricted conditions, to extract confessions, but the teaching of the Catholic Church today is that torture is wrong.

 

[Servant19]

The Cathoic Church never has no prisons, torture chambers or any forms of capital punishment.

The Catholic Church obeys the commandment “thou shall not kill (murder)”.

The Catholic Church follows and obeys her master to forgive those who persecute you, because the world has persecuted our master Jesus Christ.

God is the one the only judge, the Catholic Church does not pass judgement or punishment on any murderer. She calls these criminals to repentance, before God finds them guilty on judgement day, which is an eternal punishment.

The Catholic Church offers healing and life eternal in her Lord Jesus Christ. She does not fear man who can kill the body, but we Catholics fear God who can destroy both the body and the soul.

**When you speak of punishment in the case of murder of the body, you are looking to the Ceasar’s of the world.

When you speak of eternal punishment and damnation of the murderer’s soul, you look to the Catholic Church for repentance and God’s forgiveness.

Know this however, for which would you wish to be punished for your crimes? In this life, look for Ceasar’s punishment. For eternal punishment look to the Catholic Church for answers.**
Peace be with you

Hello dear friend,

If the Catholic Church does not judge anyone dear friend, does that mean that in a Catholic country, if my child gets murdered. the murderer will be allowed to continue on his/her murderous rampage unhindered, and face judgement and punishment when he dies a natural death?

I am simply trying to correlate the reasons for Islam and its validity in society at the time. Laws were needed, and God’s punishment to be passed down to save the oppressed from continual oppression and the unjustly treated to find justice is provided.

Now I understand that Islam has not found its place in western civilization, however the need for laws (and not man made laws) are critical for this Age. However, this “principle” and “concept” is worthy of exploration to assess the validity and necessity for Islam in an increasingly complex world soon after Muhammad’s passing…

What a wonderful Age it is today

Peace to you too dear Gabriel.

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[Tomdstone]

The teachings and revelations of God handed down to the Catholic Church from the original apostles has not changed.

Here is what was taught in the past:
Ephesians 6:5
Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ.
Colossians 3:22
Slaves, obey your earthly masters in everything; and do it, not only when their eye is on you and to curry their favor, but with sincerity of heart and reverence for the Lord.

Today, it is taught that slaves should be free and not under the requirement to obey an earthly master.

 

[Servant19]

Here is what was taught in the past:
Ephesians 6:5
Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ.
Colossians 3:22
Slaves, obey your earthly masters in everything; and do it, not only when their eye is on you and to curry their favor, but with sincerity of heart and reverence for the Lord.

Today, it is taught that slaves should be free and not under the requirement to obey an earthly master.

Tom, are you implying that religious truth is relative, not absolute?



.

 

[Servant19]

For the sake of argument here is wisdom; “The Weeds grow with the Wheat”

I acknowledge this Truth you assert here dear Gabriel

May I ask, does the Catholic Church not condemn the “judgers” in society? Are there not Catholics in the man-made criminal justice system in every land on earth, handing down man-made punishments to those who commit grievous sins?

Why does the Catholic Church not condemn such opposers of God’s way of “non-judgementalism”?

Thankyou for your consideration dear friend

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[Tomdstone]

Tom, are you implying that religious truth is relative, not absolute?



.

It looks to me like the Scriptural teaching as given by Ephesians 6:5 and .Colossians 3:22 has changed.
Other Scriptural teachings have been changed also: for example, that women keep silent in Church or that women are to wear headcovering. For hundreds of years the teaching was that women were supposed to wear headcovering in Church.

 

[SteveVH]

It looks to me like the Scriptural teaching as given by Ephesians 6:5 and .Colossians 3:22 has changed.

That is why you cannot read Scripture without guidance from the Church who gave us the Scriptures.

“Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ.” (Ephesians 6:5)

“Slaves, obey your earthly masters in everything; and do it, not only when their eye is on you and to curry their favor, but with sincerity of heart and reverence for the Lord.” (Colossians 3:22)

What you do not understand is that Paul is in no way justifying slavery as we understand it. He is saying that we must obey Christ regardless of our station in life.

You must also understand that there were many called “slaves” that were nothing more than impoverished people who were taken in by a charitable family and given a place to live, food and clothing in return for working for the family.

 

[Estevao]

Oh man lol this thread got baha’i jacked.

 

[Estevao]

It looks to me like the Scriptural teaching as given by Ephesians 6:5 and .Colossians 3:22 has changed.
Other Scriptural teachings have been changed also: for example, that women keep silent in Church or that women are to wear headcovering. For hundreds of years the teaching was that women were supposed to wear headcovering in Church.

Like how long have you been here? Have you not understood yet that Catholics don’t do the whole proof texting thing?

 

[Tomdstone]

That is why you cannot read Scripture without guidance from the Church who gave us the Scriptures.

“Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ.” (Ephesians 6:5)

“Slaves, obey your earthly masters in everything; and do it, not only when their eye is on you and to curry their favor, but with sincerity of heart and reverence for the Lord.” (Colossians 3:22)

What you do not understand is that Paul is in no way justifying slavery as we understand it. He is saying that we must obey Christ regardless of our station in life.

You must also understand that there were many called “slaves” that were nothing more than impoverished people who were taken in by a charitable family and given a place to live, food and clothing in return for working for the family.

Please see: Development or Reversal by Avery Cardinal Dulles:
"Jesus, though he repeatedly denounced sin as a kind of moral slavery, said not a word against slavery as a social institution. Nor did the writers of the New Testament. Peter and Paul exhort slaves to be obedient to their masters. Paul urges Philemon to treat his converted slave Onesimus as a brother in Christ. While discreetly suggesting that he manumit Onesimus, he does not say that Philemon is morally obliged to free Onesimus and any other slaves he may have had.

For many centuries the Church was part of a slave-holding society. The popes themselves held slaves, including at times hundreds of Muslim captives to man their galleys. Throughout Christian antiquity and the Middle Ages, theologians generally followed St. Augustine in holding that although slavery was not written into the natural moral law it was not absolutely forbidden by that law."
firstthings.com/article/2005/10/development-or-reversal

 

[Tomdstone]

Like how long have you been here? Have you not understood yet that Catholics don’t do the whole proof texting thing?

I commented on the following which I read on this thread:

The teachings and revelations of God handed down to the Catholic Church from the original apostles has not changed.

I refer to the article mentioned in post #92.

 

[Estevao]

Please see: Development or Reversal by Avery Cardinal Dulles:
"Jesus, though he repeatedly denounced sin as a kind of moral slavery, said not a word against slavery as a social institution. Nor did the writers of the New Testament. Peter and Paul exhort slaves to be obedient to their masters. Paul urges Philemon to treat his converted slave Onesimus as a brother in Christ. While discreetly suggesting that he manumit Onesimus, he does not say that Philemon is morally obliged to free Onesimus and any other slaves he may have had.

For many centuries the Church was part of a slave-holding society. The popes themselves held slaves, including at times hundreds of Muslim captives to man their galleys. Throughout Christian antiquity and the Middle Ages, theologians generally followed St. Augustine in holding that although slavery was not written into the natural moral law it was not absolutely forbidden by that law."
firstthings.com/article/2005/10/development-or-reversal

Lol, that was Cardinal Dulles’ summary of Noonan’s book’s assertions. But did you notice the conclusion of the article you yourself linked for us?

The reader should be warned, however, that Noonan manipulates the evidence to make it seem to favor his own preconceived conclusions. For some reason, he is intent on finding discontinuity”but he fails to establish that the Church has reversed her teaching in any of the four areas he examines.

It seems that your own link doesn’t support your claims. Try better next time.

 

[Servant19]

Oh man lol this thread got baha’i jacked.

LOL…fascinating…

I guess Baha’is have a say in all things that alienate and separate and bring hate between different peoples of the world. Baha’is enjoy unity, understanding and collaboration.

Long may Baha’i jacking continue…

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[tonyfish58]

Which argument that you could put forward would invalidate the Bible? Which argument from history, archeaology or faith causes it to not stand up? Is it a source issue? A factual issue? Or merely that it holds the Truth not found in any other document?

clintonm - Thank you for the Question - That is Just it, I would not offer an Argument against the Holy Scriptures but there are many that would For instance this one person - humanknowledge.net/Philosophy/Metaphysics/Theology/Christianity.html

The statement was "what argument would a Christian bring up against another Holy Book to prove it False? For instance if you Think the Koran is not the Word of God, Why?

If you have one of these arguments, then that argument could be equally used to disprove the Bible.

God Bless and Regards Tony

 

[tonyfish58]

This OP is one of the more powerful reasons to reject Islam, the life of it’s prophet, unlike Jesus, cannot be said to be authentic in specific ways. Sure there probably was a guy called Muhammad who started a religion cantered around monotheism. But to say the Quran definitely came from him, I don’t believe we can know that for sure.

IgnatianPhilo - This is one of those arguments that when used is just as valid for the Bible.

I have heard these arguments used against Christianity.

History Proves equally that there was Jesus and the Gospels were written from His Word.

AND History Proves there was Muhummad and the Koran was Written from His Words.

It is easier to Prove they are all from the same Source, both those books tell you they are

God Bless and Regards Tony

 

[tonyfish58]

**There is a difference between who is preaching or giving lip service to the gospels and those who are actually living out the gospels and preaching the life of Christ from their own lifestyle.

The only true practicing Christians whom we learn from are those who have taken a vow of Chastity, Poverty, and Obedience to God’s Word and authority. These are not of the world but are in the world. These have given up everything for God and live a life of prayer.

Look to the Popes, bishops, priests, deacons and religious in the Catholic Church. This includes the Orthodox because they are Catholic themselves. History proves the above have changed the world in the positive**.

The Methodists and Baptists and all other faith communities with a valid baptism fall under the umbrella of the Catholic Church, though separated in communion, we all believe and proclaim Christ Crucified. And as lay persons, we all fail to live out the True gospel of Jesus Christ, that is why the ministry of reconciliation was given to the Church, so that sin can be forgiven from repentance.

As far as your poem is concerned; It has some elements that touch and go from the gospels of Jesus Christ. Therefore I can offer you my opinion that your poem or philosophical summary is never any gospel of Jesus Christ.

Who ever relates philosophy to the Truth? Philosophy never measures up to God’s Truth. Philosophy is never gospel, because it offers a view point to a subject, when many others can arrive at a supportive or opposing view from a different philosophical undertaking.

You present the same twist to the God’s Truth as Tonyfish58. When Truth or the Gospels of Jesus Christ stand by themselves as light to the darkness of man’s philosophical undertakings which remain grounded to the world.

Peace be with you

Dear Gabriel of 12 - There is no attempt to Twist any Words. But Gods Words contain more then we sometimes look for

Could not your arguments be just as valid to other Religious Leaders/Followers following other Faiths

The Jews

The Muslims

The Baha’is (There are no Priests in the Baha’i Faith)

The only true practicing Lover of God whom we learn from are those who have taken a vow of Chastity, Poverty, and Obedience to God’s Word and authority. These are not of the world but are in the world. These have given up everything for God and live a life of prayer.

History proves the above have changed the world in the positive as well History proves this as a fact

God Bless and Regards Tony

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Servant19;12197294]Hello dear friend,

If the Catholic Church does not judge anyone dear friend, does that mean that in a Catholic country, if my child gets murdered. the murderer will be allowed to continue on his/her murderous rampage unhindered, and face judgement and punishment when he dies a natural death?

Let me repeat what I covered for you in my previous posts;

The Catholic Church does not judge a murderer God does.
The secular powers in a Catholic/Christian society administered it’s own criminal laws of justice.

Because the one in a position of secular powers may be a Catholic member, but his/her secular powers never govern’s the Catholic Church nor the Catholic Church governs any secular powers. The Catholic Church is in the world but not of the world, She belongs to God, Secular powers belong to the world. God’s Kingdom is not of the world.

I am simply trying to correlate the reasons for Islam and its validity in society at the time. Laws were needed, and God’s punishment to be passed down to save the oppressed from continual oppression and the unjustly treated to find justice is provided.

You just proved Islam is a KIngdom of men and of the world and not of God. When Islam mixes secular powers with religion, Islam becomes a poison and destruction for peace and justice to freedom of humanity, when it exercises secular capital punishment and justifies it by blaming God for killing and punishing people, which makes them victims against God, this act of Islam does not administer justice. I hope your reading this so as not to repeat again.

Islam remains in it’s infant stage, when it punishes and kills people in the name of “Allah”. God’s punishment is eternal, Islam as a religion has no authority from God to Kill it’s enemies or exercise capital punishment. Man invented these, thus Islam becomes secular or worldly when it behaves this way in the name of It’s “Allah”.

Now I understand that Islam has not found its place in western civilization, however the need for laws (and not man made laws) are critical for this Age. However, this “principle” and “concept” is worthy of exploration to assess the validity and necessity for Islam in an increasingly complex world soon after Muhammad’s passing…

.

You prove your prophet Muhammad a false prophet when Islam fornicates itself with the world in the name of a divinity. Islam fulfills the prophecy of God in the anti-Christ in the way you have describe Islam and it’s prophet Muhammad.

God’s Kingdom is never secular. Islam has a lot of growing up to do.

No one can defeat providence in any age, when it is God’s will, God’s will be done.

Good to share with you, friend

Peace and charity be with you