How do I as a Catholic refute these Muslim claims

[Estevao]

Tony, I notice you think the Koran is God’s word, but if that’s the case then why does it get the trinity wrong? It seems to me that the Koran misstates the orthodox Christian conception of the trinity and attributes a tri-theism to what Christians believe, but Christians are monotheists. Why would the angel Gabriel/Jibril, conveying a message from God, not know what Christians believe?

“O People of the Scripture, do not commit excess in your religion or say about Allah except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was but a messenger of Allah and His word which He directed to Mary and a soul [created at a command] from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers. And do not say, “Three”; desist - it is better for you. Indeed, Allah is but one God. Exalted is He above having a son. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. And sufficient is Allah as Disposer of affairs.”

Koran 4:171

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

I commented on the following which I read on this thread:
I refer to the article mentioned in post #92.

Tomdstone; I see your references and quotes including the scriptures on slavery are all out of context.

You do know there are different forms of slavery recorded in the bible, some are enslaved for a debt to be paid and then released, this is not the same slavery you picture from hollywood movies. In fact many slaves had more rights than tribal Hebrew members when it came to family members. Some biblical slaves were paid. So please let’s pretend to generalize Hollywoods painted picture of biblical slavery to the True forms of slavery practiced in biblical times.

Please take into consideration that biblical slavery practice had laws that were adhered to from their masters.

Did slavery later become abused? Yes it did, and it is still abused today.

Slavery is an invention by man, not by God. Did the Catholic Church have to deal with slavery throughout the ages since the resurrection of Jesus Christ, Yes she did, and still does today.

As man degraded humanity, the only defense for the dignity of humanity and the slaves in most ages is the Catholic Church and you can take that to the bank.

Here is the official teaching of slavery from the Catholic Church;

CCC 2414…lead to the enslavement of human beings, to their being bought, sold, and exchanged like merchandise, in disregard for their personal dignity. It is a sin against the dignity of persons and their fundamental rights to reduce them by violence to their productive value or to a source of profit.** St. Paul directed a Christian master to treat his CHRISTIAN SLAVE “no longer as a slave but more than a slave, as a beloved brother… both in the flesh and in the Lord”.Philem.16**

I don’t know what human inventions such as slavery which are subject to change, have to do with the Catholic Church who lived in each of these different ages of slavery which ultimately the world received the Catholic Church’s unchanged teaching about slavery and was instrumental in removing the abuse of slavery and slavery itself from the West. But your at liberty to learn the Truth here about the Catholic Church. My advice to you is , don’t learn about the Catholic Church from those who oppose the Catholic church. There are two sides to every story and one Truth be told.

peace be with you

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

tonyfish58;12197601]Dear Gabriel of 12 - There is no attempt to Twist any Words. But Gods Words contain more then we sometimes look for

I understand; Jesus also spoke in parables, and there are many forms of literature in the scriptures. As it pertains to God’s Word. You complimented the Christian bible with nice human words. But do you measure the Christian bible as the Word of God? Can you be honest here, and state when you mention God’s Word are referencing the Christian bible or the Koran?

Could not your arguments be just as valid to other Religious Leaders/Followers following other Faiths

The Jews

The Muslims

The Baha’is (There are no Priests in the Baha’i Faith)

You forgot paganology and satanist who also have their so called priest’s.

NO the New Testament is clear on what a bishop, priest and deacon is in the Church. In the West the Catholic Church follows Jesus, Paul and Peter as celibate priesthood. The Jews, Muslims all have wives and children and are subject to secular laws which govern them.

The Christian disciplines of the Bishop, priesthood, diaconate do not follow the same disciplines of practice as to your list, and the Christian priesthood is not subject to secular powers only to God.

peace be to you Tony

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Scriptures say that slaves should be subject to their masters, which is not the teaching today. Pope Innocent IV approved the use of torture, under restricted conditions, to extract confessions, but the teaching of the Catholic Church today is that torture is wrong.

The definition of slavery is one who submits to his/her masters will.

The laborer today in the work force would be considered a slave, because the laborer submits to the will of his/her master (boss), the only difference is the laborer is compensated for his/her obedience to the master, and the laborer just as in biblical Hebrew slaves have laws which protect the slave and govern the master over his/her slave. Don’t paint hollywoods picture of slavery with biblical Hebrew slaves especially during first century times.

I know of no Pope Innocent IV approving the use of torture to extract confessions in the Church? I believe your context is misplaced here. Can you give your source for review?

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

QUOTE]Servant19;12197387]I acknowledge this Truth you assert here dear Gabriel

May I ask, does the Catholic Church not condemn the “judgers” in society? Are there not Catholics in the man-made criminal justice system in every land on earth, handing down man-made punishments to those who commit grievous sins?

Yes there are Catholic politicians, judges, lawyers etc… These are all secular jobs that adhere to the secular laws of their societies. The above members do not act in the capacity of the Catholic Church, but they govern and exercise their secular laws that govern the people.

Has the Catholic Church made efforts to prevent these secular powers from ever exercising capital punishment, abortion, euthanasia ? yes She still objects to capital punishment, abortions etc. today. Remember all secular powers have taken an oath to their laws of their land with the guidance of God to help them. When all have fallen short of the glory of God.

In another words, when these secular powers violate their duties to the people that is not seen, they fall under God’s judgement by their own confession and oath to God. When secular powers violate their oath God’s providence in time will reveal and pass judgement on them.

The Catholic Church is there to help those who have been violated and educate the violator to repentance and forgiveness.

Why does the Catholic Church not condemn such opposers of God’s way of “non-judgementalism”?

God did not give the keys of the Kingdom of God to the Church to bind and loose secular powers. God gave the keys to the Kingdom of God to the Catholic Church to bind and loose evil power and principalities. She does not fight against flesh and blood, Her fight is with the evil powers and principalities which try to infect humanity with heresies against God’s revelations and teachings of Justice, peace and Love.

The Catholic Church does not fornicate herself with secular powers with her divine keys in the Kingdom of God.

Peace be with you

 

[Tomdstone]

I know of no Pope Innocent IV approving the use of torture to extract confessions in the Church? I believe your context is misplaced here. Can you give your source for review?

Source: New Catholic encyclopedia (Green books) Look under Torture.

 

[jakasaki]

Every Muslim/Islam thread gets derailed with Ba’hai & Catholicism.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Source: New Catholic encyclopedia (Green books) Look under Torture.

As noted Tomdstone you misplaced the Pope Innocent’s IV rule on torture in the context of Hollywood’s depiction of torture.

The Popes rule was limited to Northern Italy, which secular powers had at their disposal ancient techniques to question the guilty party to search for the Truth. These common place secular practices fall under the title of torture. What you failed to realize in this well recorded history was that the secular powers applied this form of questioning or “torture” also to the witnesses of the case.

What Pope Innocent IV approved! was to allow the secular authorities to practice their “torture” form of questioning to the witnesses of the crime who were priests or of religious orders to be tortured by the secular authorities only once and when they tortured the priests or monks it had to be done in the presence of a bishop. The Pope’s bull made it clear that everything be recorded, which was something new to the secular powers exercising “torture” in the form of questioning witnesses and the accused during the Popes tenure

So please Tomdstone do not jump to conclusions of the Church who lived in different ages and times of antiquity which cannot be compared to our times of late as far as laws and practices of law are concerned.

Recorded history disproves your false accusation of torture being approved by a Pope has no grounds to today standards of the torture you falsely imply, from which you appear to misplace recorded historical acts of torture being applied to both the witnesses and the accused. The Pope approved the questioning or torture be applied to religious priests and clerics only once and in the presence of a bishop. This is a far cry from what your post original leads to a false pretense of the Church approving “Torture” or changing.

Peace be with you

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Source: New Catholic encyclopedia (Green books) Look under Torture.

Dear Tomdstone; St.Thomas Aquinas was a contemporary to Pope Innocent IV. To place this subject in relation to the OP, St. Thomas Aquinas scholastics form of arriving at a Truth, is the same form of questioning that is applied in our Court systems today and is used by the FBI agency in the U.S which replaced any form of physical "torture or questioning of witnesses used by secular authorities in ancient times.

As far as the Muslim claims as per the OP, when one applies St.Thomas Aquinas scholastic form of investigating Truth of a subject, will refute and disprove any false claim of a Muslim’s accusation of Christianity.

**St.Thomas Aquinas applied his form of scholastics to search and find the Truth of Jesus Christ and the Catholic faith which concluded with reason and logic that Jesus is Truth and the Catholic faith was founded by God in the person of Jesus Christ.

If one applies this same (St. Thomas Aquinas) scholastic form of questioning to arrive at Truth towards Islam, one will find that Islam is not reasonable and logical to the standards of God revelations to humanity.**

Peace be with you

 

[Tomdstone]

As noted Tomdstone you misplaced the Pope Innocent’s IV rule on torture in the context of Hollywood’s depiction of torture.

The Popes rule was limited to Northern Italy, which secular powers had at their disposal ancient techniques to question the guilty party to search for the Truth. These common place secular practices fall under the title of torture. What you failed to realize in this well recorded history was that the secular powers applied this form of questioning or “torture” also to the witnesses of the case.

What Pope Innocent IV approved! was to allow the secular authorities to practice their “torture” form of questioning to the witnesses of the crime who were priests or of religious orders to be tortured by the secular authorities only once and when they tortured the priests or monks it had to be done in the presence of a bishop. The Pope’s bull made it clear that everything be recorded, which was something new to the secular powers exercising “torture” in the form of questioning witnesses and the accused during the Popes tenure

So please Tomdstone do not jump to conclusions of the Church who lived in different ages and times of antiquity which cannot be compared to our times of late as far as laws and practices of law are concerned.

Recorded history disproves your false accusation of torture being approved by a Pope has no grounds to today standards of the torture you falsely imply, from which you appear to misplace recorded historical acts of torture being applied to both the witnesses and the accused. The Pope approved the questioning or torture be applied to religious priests and clerics only once and in the presence of a bishop. This is a far cry from what your post original leads to a false pretense of the Church approving “Torture” or changing.

Peace be with you

See the following link:
newadvent.org/cathen/08026a.htm

 

[tonyfish58]

Tony, I notice you think the Koran is God’s word, but if that’s the case then why does it get the trinity wrong? It seems to me that the Koran misstates the orthodox Christian conception of the trinity and attributes a tri-theism to what Christians believe, but Christians are monotheists. Why would the angel Gabriel/Jibril, conveying a message from God, not know what Christians believe?

“O People of the Scripture, do not commit excess in your religion or say about Allah except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was but a messenger of Allah and His word which He directed to Mary and a soul [created at a command] from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers. And do not say, “Three”; desist - it is better for you. Indeed, Allah is but one God. Exalted is He above having a son. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. And sufficient is Allah as Disposer of affairs.”

Koran 4:171

Estevao - Good Question - Basically I think the Koran is the Word of God, thus the warning is that the Christians has got the meaning of the Trinity wrong.

It is worth considering if you look at the Trinity with a different explanation, then it is possible to reconcile all Gods Words from all Religions.

Could this not be what is meant by Isaiah 11:6

“The wolf will live with the lamb, the leopard will lie down with the goat, the calf and the lion and the yearling together; and a little child will lead them”.

Note who will lead them - I think this is an interesting passage. The different animals could represent the different Faiths and the Child Leading them could reflect the level of conscious needed to achieve this. A young Child does not have preconceived Ideas and will learn what they are taught.

Notice this is supported in Matthew 18:3

"And he said: “Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven”.

Thus it is not easy for an adult that has been taught a specific way to believe, thus to consider a change to that belief!

If the path was to be so clear and it was going to be easy, why warn us! There is wisdom in all the warnings, but we as mankind really do not look deep enough into those warnings!

God Bless and Regards Tony

 

[tonyfish58]

I understand; Jesus also spoke in parables, and there are many forms of literature in the scriptures. As it pertains to God’s Word. You complimented the Christian bible with nice human words. But do you measure the Christian bible as the Word of God? Can you be honest here, and state when you mention God’s Word are referencing the Christian bible or the Koran?

Peace be to you Gabriel of 12

Firstly I appreciate that it is to the Bible you Call “Gods Word”, I understand how much this “Word” means to you and how the 'Word" imparts Joy to your Soul. Thus I use 'Gods Word" just to impart to you, as to what Height a Baha’i reverences all the Holy Scriptures. I apologize if this is offensive to you, please advise and I will think of another term

The great thing is Baha’u’llah has answered all the questions you could ask

Here is the explanation re understanding the Holy Word, be it in Any Holy Book. (I have added a note for easy reference, marked in Bracketed Blue and highlighted other parts blue and green)

“It is evident unto thee that the Birds of Heaven and Doves of Eternity (ie Christ) speak a twofold language. One language, the outward language, is devoid of allusions, is unconcealed and unveiled; that it may be a guiding lamp and a beaconing light whereby wayfarers may attain the heights of holiness, and seekers may advance into the realm of eternal reunion…”

"… "The other language is veiled and concealed, so that whatever lieth hidden in the heart of the malevolent may be made manifest and their innermost being be disclosed… “God verily will test them and sift them.” This is the divine standard, this is the Touchstone of God, wherewith He proveth His servants. None apprehendeth the meaning of these utterances except them whose hearts are assured, whose souls have found favour with God, and whose minds are detached from all else but Him. In such utterances, the literal meaning, as generally understood by the people, is not what hath been intended. Thus it is recorded: “Every knowledge hath seventy meanings, of which one only is known amongst the people. And when the Qá’im shall arise, He shall reveal unto men all that which remaineth.” He also saith: “We speak one word, and by it we intend one and seventy meanings; each one of these meanings we can explain.”

This is a powerful statement and is at the end of a Tablet that Proves all Gods Messengers including Christ. This is a wonderful read full of much Knowledge about God and His Messengers, well worth the read Link to book reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/KI/index.html

God Bless and Regards Tony

 

[tonyfish58]

Every Muslim/Islam thread gets derailed with Ba’hai & Catholicism.

Dear jakasaki - The Thread is not Derailed.

Someone has to defend Islam and as a person who is a Baha’i is also a Jew a Christian a Muslim and a Baha’i, we would reserve the right to defend any thread directed at refuting the Truth of any of these Faiths.

Dear Friend - God is One

I would also suggest that as we move on in to the future you will see millions more taking this stance

God Bless our Wonderful world and may we be given the Grace of God to appreciate all that it is - Regards Tony

 

[Servant19]

Yes there are Catholic politicians, judges, lawyers etc… These are all secular jobs that adhere to the secular laws of their societies. The above members do not act in the capacity of the Catholic Church, but they govern and exercise their secular laws that govern the people.

Has the Catholic Church made efforts to prevent these secular powers from ever exercising capital punishment, abortion, euthanasia ? yes She still objects to capital punishment, abortions etc. today. Remember all secular powers have taken an oath to their laws of their land with the guidance of God to help them. When all have fallen short of the glory of God.

In another words, when these secular powers violate their duties to the people that is not seen, they fall under God’s judgement by their own confession and oath to God. When secular powers violate their oath God’s providence in time will reveal and pass judgement on them.

The Catholic Church is there to help those who have been violated and educate the violator to repentance and forgiveness.

God did not give the keys of the Kingdom of God to the Church to bind and loose secular powers. God gave the keys to the Kingdom of God to the Catholic Church to bind and loose evil power and principalities. She does not fight against flesh and blood, Her fight is with the evil powers and principalities which try to infect humanity with heresies against God’s revelations and teachings of Justice, peace and Love.

The Catholic Church does not fornicate herself with secular powers with her divine keys in the Kingdom of God.

Peace be with you

Thank you Gabriel,

May I ask you what your understanding of the highlighted parts of this verse is please:

For a CHILD IS BORN to us, and a son is given to us, and the government is upon his shoulder: Isaiah 9:6

…and this passage also please

“your will be done,
on earth as it is in heaven.”

Matthew 6:10

Is God’s Kingdom solely in heaven, or does He intend to establish Himself on earth as well?

Thankyou

.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

See the following link:
newadvent.org/cathen/08026a.htm

Hello Tomdstone; I posted excerpts below from your recorded historical accounts confirmed from your source, both of your sources you provided do not support your false accusation. Please read them again.

The following comes from your own site you provided;

In these lines Lee has transferred to the pope words employed by the emperor. Moreover, it is simply the exact opposite of historical truth to assert that the imperial edicts punishing heresy with death were due to ecclesiastical influence, since we have shown that in this period the more influential ecclesiastical authorities declared that the death penalty was contrary to the spirit of the Gospel, and themselves opposed its execution. For centuries this was the ecclesiastical attitude both in theory and in practice.

Thus, in keeping with the civil law, some Manichæans were executed at Ravenna in 556. On the other hand. Elipandus of Toledo and Felix of Urgel, the chiefs of Adoptionism and Predestinationism, were condemned by councils, but were otherwise left unmolested. We may note, however, that the monk Gothescalch, after the condemnation of his false doctrine that Christ had not died for all mankind, was by the Synods of Mainz in 848 and Quiercy in 849 sentenced to flogging and imprisonment, punishments then common in monasteries for various infractions of the rule.

In short, no blame attaches to the Church for her behavior towards heresy in those rude days. Among all the bishops of the period, so far as can be ascertained, Theodwin of Liège, successor of the aforesaid Wazo and predecessor of Adalbero II, alone appealed to the civil power for the punishment of heretics, and even he did not call for the death penalty, which was rejected by all. who were more highly respected in the twelfth century than Peter Canter, the most learned man of his time, and St. Bernard of Clairvaux? The former says (“Verbum abbreviatum”, c. lxxviii, in P.L., CCV, 231):

Whether they be convicted of error, or freely confess their guilt, Catharists are not to be put to death, at least not when they refrain from armed assaults upon the Church. For although the Apostle said, A man that is a heretic after the third admonition, avoid, he certainly did not say, Kill him. Throw them into prison, if you will, but do not put them to death (cf. Geroch von Reichersberg, “De investigatione Antichristi III”, 42).

Hence, the occasional executions of heretics during this period must be ascribed partly to the arbitrary action of individual rulers, partly to the fanatic outbreaks of the overzealous populace, and in no wise to ecclesiastical law or the ecclesiastical authorities. There were already, it is true, canonists who conceded to the Church the right to pronounce sentence of death on heretics; but the question was treated as a purely academic one, and the theory exercised virtually no influence on real life.

Excommunication, proscription, imprisonment, etc., were indeed inflicted, being intended rather as forms of atonement than of real punishment, but never the capital sentence.

** The maxim of Peter Cantor was still adhered to: “Catharists, even though divinely convicted in an ordeal, must not be punished by death.”**

The present writer can find nothing to suggest that the accused were imprisoned during the period of inquiry. It was certainly customary to grant the accused person his freedom until the sermo generalis, were he ever so strongly inculpated through witnesses or confession; he was not yet supposed guilty, though he was compelled to promise under oath always to be ready to come before the inquisitor, and in the end to accept with good grace his sentence, whatever its tenor.

Curiously enough, ]torture was not regarded as a mode of punishment, but purely as a means of eliciting the truth. It was not of ecclesiastical origin, and was long prohibited in the ecclesiastical courts. Nor was it originally an important factor in the inquisitional procedure, being unauthorized until twenty years after the Inquisition had begun. It was first authorized by Innocent IV in his Bull “Ad exstirpanda” of 15 May, 1252,

The limit placed upon torture was citra membri diminutionem et mortis periculum — i.e, it was not to cause the loss of life or limb or imperil life. Torture was to applied only once, and not then unless the accused were uncertain in his statements, and seemed already virtually convicted by manifold and weighty proofs. In general, this violent testimony (quaestio) was to be deferred as long as possible, and recourse to it was permitted in only when all other expedients were exhausted. Conscientious and sensible judges quite properly attached no great importance to confessions extracted by torture. After long experience Eymeric declared: Quaestiones sunt fallaces et inefficaces — i.e the torture is deceptive and ineffectual.

Peace be with you

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Servant19;12200711]Thank you Gabriel,

May I ask you what your understanding of the highlighted parts of this verse is please:

In the Western societies, public servants (judges, presidents, police, lawyers, military personnel) all take an oath of office. What each oath contains is a plea to God to administer their office, when they are humanly unable too, with God’s assistance and to act in their office as witness before God, when their acts are hidden.

…and this passage also please
Is God’s Kingdom solely in heaven, or does He intend to establish Himself on earth as well?

You fail tremendously from this prayer the Oratio Dominica = the prayer to our Father is taught and given to us by our Lord Jesus ccc 2765

You have removed the prayer of the seven petitions out of it’s whole context being prayed. This is a liturgical prayer to God our Father. When prayed in the liturgical setting your carnal meaning or view never reaches the eternal Spirit of God for which it is prayed in and from the Spirit of God by His Children.

To help your carnal meaning here; We are asking God our Father for His loving plan and will to become fully realized on earth as it is already fully realized in heaven.

This petition from the Spirit of God, reveals that we pray to Our Father to unite our will to His Son’s will in order to fulfill God’s will. By Jesus example in obedience to God’s will, we are incapable of doing this by ourselves, yet united to Jesus and the Holy Spirit becomes possible for our humanity to love our neighbor as our selves on earth as it is revealed in heaven in all things.

From this reflection of the petition you apply the spirit of the World which is governed by evil powers and principalities. We are praying that God’s will govern our humanity in Love as it is revealed in heaven, not on earth which is your deluded meaning of the prayer.

Jesus reveals and teaches this prayer to His disciples, so as to commit ourselves to Christ and become one Spirit with Him, so as to accomplish His will, to be perfected on earth as it is in heaven.

On earth as it is in heaven, is a petition for God’s will to be done on earth to remove error from earth so that Truth may take root in it, vice be destroyed, and the virtue of Love on earth may no longer differ from Love who is God in heaven.

" Thy Kingdom come,Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven". That Kingdom of God in heaven is Love.

When you falsely apply carnality to the petition to mean War, Punishment on unbelievers as Islam teaches to kill the infidels in order to establish a kingdom on earth invented by men instead of God’s Kingdom in heaven which is a contradiction.

Your view is a kingdom on earth made in the will of man, not the will of God. Your view pretends to know God’s will to conquer, destroy and enslave man to a man’s view of God’s will which is never like heaven.

Peace be with you

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

tonyfish58;12200697]Peace be to you Gabriel of 12

Firstly I appreciate that it is to the Bible you Call “Gods Word”, I understand how much this “Word” means to you and how the 'Word" imparts Joy to your Soul. Thus I use 'Gods Word" just to impart to you, as to what Height a Baha’i reverences all the Holy Scriptures. I apologize if this is offensive to you, please advise and I will think of another term

I’m not offended in anyway so long as our subjects “the Word of God” is not spoken from a forked tongue that speaks one way and means something totally different as to deceive.

I prefer brutal honesty instead of flattery.

I understand your view to hold that the canonized bible is not the word of God to your Bahai or the followers of Islam.

The great thing is Baha’u’llah has answered all the questions you could ask

NO it doesn’t. It never reveals the date and time when God establishes the Kingdom of Israel upon the earth as the prophets of God foretold.

“It is evident unto thee that the Birds of Heaven and Doves of Eternity (ie Christ) speak a twofold language. One language, the outward language, is devoid of allusions, is unconcealed and unveiled; that it may be a guiding lamp and a beaconing light whereby wayfarers may attain the heights of holiness, and seekers may advance into the realm of eternal reunion…”

In the things of God, this language from Birds and Doves of eternity sounds heretical because Angels are the only messengers of God from heaven. Your birds and doves grounds their heavenly language to the natural world that can never reach the heights of holiness, when it is God the Holy Spirit who makes those things Holy before the throne of God. Not birds and doves.

"… "The other language is veiled and concealed, so that whatever lieth hidden in the heart of the malevolent may be made manifest and their innermost being be disclosed… “God verily will test them and sift them.” This is the divine standard, this is the Touchstone of God, wherewith He proveth His servants. None apprehendeth the meaning of these utterances except them whose hearts are assured, whose souls have found favour with God, and whose minds are detached from all else but Him.

The philosophy here of things veiled and things concealed touches on the things Jesus has already revealed to our humanity. Why does your philosopher need to make commentary to what God has already revealed to our humanity, as it to take a credit from the teachings of Jesus Christ from it’s own words?

It reveals nothing new here. The content reflects Christian teaching but falls short of the revelations of Jesus Christ. It appears to me, your author read the Jewish and Christian scriptures and is applying those teachings to itself that reveals a deception of who the true author is. Because it is attached to the grey area of heresy, it is never a gospel of Jesus Christ nor does it measure up to the teachings of Jesus Christ.

In such utterances, the literal meaning, as generally understood by the people, is not what hath been intended. Thus it is recorded: “Every knowledge hath seventy meanings, of which one only is known amongst the people. And when the Qá’im shall arise, He shall reveal unto men all that which remaineth.” He also saith: “We speak one word, and by it we intend one and seventy meanings; each one of these meanings we can explain.”

Why will God have a need to deceive with different meanings of words to our humanity, to mean one thing and say another? You have convinced me, these words are never divine, because they attempt to deceive rather than speak TRUTH. TRUTH needs no substitutes to reveal what Truth is.

There is a difference when God speaks and reveals from His Word and when man speaks as lawyers with a double tongue only to convince one of mans view by speaking a word that applies multiple meanings which can lead to a deception by a deceptive device of language and words, that has the hearer believing and trusting one way while the speaker conquers and destroys it’s victim.

Islam is known for their cause to deceive, confuse and conquer whom it falsely claims to be their enemies, only to promote it’s religion through secular powers.

If one wants a contemplative enlightenment of God’s Word, read the canonized bible with the assistant of the Holy Spirit before beginning.

This is a powerful statement and is at the end of a Tablet that Proves all Gods Messengers including Christ. This is a wonderful read full of much Knowledge about God and His Messengers, well worth the read Link to book reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/KI/index.html

Thanks Tony, I will read more of it. Although it proves difficult for me to view it in light of the Holy Spirit who reveals and teaches our humanity as it relates from a philosophical view of nothing new. For this is nothing new under the sun, what God has not already revealed before the Bahai or Muhammad’s Koran.

Peace be with you

 

[tonyfish58]

I’m not offended in anyway so long as our subjects “the Word of God” is not spoken from a forked tongue that speaks one way and means something totally different as to deceive.

I prefer brutal honesty instead of flattery.

Thank you for your reply Gabriel of 12. I can see you have a Firm Love for God.

I can answer with two observations from all your questions. Please consider this is an immense topic and I will do it little justice, but will try!

First - We are all bound by the Fact that God Doeth as He Willeth, this is not an easy thing to come to term with.

Second - This ties into the First in this way - Free Will - This is what puts Man above all other creation, we have been given a choice to to alter our destiny, God sets the Boundaries and the way and then leaves it to us.

But Free Will is also our downfall and it is what we are judged by. Thus God speaks openly and in veiled language. The veiled language is to sort the True Believers from those who are not.

So who’s pride is hurt when God Sends His Messengers? Take the Transition from Jew to Christian by the Revelation of Christ. Was that not a great sifter for true belief in God? Did it not bring Mankind to greater understanding of God and His Love?

Who’s pride is hurt if we acknowledge that God will always Test His Servants?

I would like to add that, yes the Time and Hour were not known, but there are a lot of Veiled Prophesies that did indeed have this time marked. Both in the Bible and the Koran and Traditions of both Faiths. I will just note but one observation as this is a big topic!

Amazingly they all point to the mid 1800’s. The Koran and Traditions were amazingly accurate as they mentioned the Year 60 (1260 Muslim Era) which corresponded to the Christian year of 1844. The Bible you may note in Daniel & Revelation talks about 1260 (42months).

“And I will appoint my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days (Years in Biblical Prophesy), clothed in sackcloth.”

This is a passage that exactly tells the time of the start of the Muslim Religion and when it ended upon the Declaration of the Bab - Exactly 1260 Years! It was clothed in Sackcloth because of the Division of the Faith immediately after the Passing of Muhammad

Sorry if that was a bit much, but the heart is like a Dam that does not want to be contained, when it is the Love of God we Share! God Bless and Regards Tony

 

[tonyfish58]

Why will God have a need to deceive with different meanings of words to our humanity, to mean one thing and say another? You have convinced me, these words are never divine, because they attempt to deceive rather than speak TRUTH. TRUTH needs no substitutes to reveal what Truth is.

There is a difference when God speaks and reveals from His Word and when man speaks as lawyers with a double tongue only to convince one of mans view by speaking a word that applies multiple meanings which can lead to a deception by a deceptive device of language and words, that has the hearer believing and trusting one way while the speaker conquers and destroys it’s victim.

Gabriel of 12 - Please I would also like to make a comment on this point of view.

Have you considered how fortunate we are to live in times that the Biblical Meanings have all been all sorted out for us. The other question could then be, is it fortunate?

Have you considered the formulation of the Doctrines of the Church? Were they not formulated from various passages that to a lot of people meant different things.

Was it not because there was a division in interpretation on the meaning of these passages that a Meeting was called to clarify what was to be believed?

If we look at those times can we not see that this consensus of thought took quite some time to formulate?

Does not the Bible still have Division of thought as to meaning of passages?

Lots can be said re this, it is well worth discussing - God Bless you & Regards Tony

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

tonyfish58;12205250]Thank you for your reply Gabriel of 12. I can see you have a Firm Love for God.

So who’s pride is hurt when God Sends His Messengers? Take the Transition from Jew to Christian by the Revelation of Christ. Was that not a great sifter for true belief in God? Did it not bring Mankind to greater understanding of God and His Love?

First of all tonyfish58, I am ready to defend my Catholic faith on the grounds of God’s revelation and historical facts both recorded and lived out by historical figures. When we discuss “The Word of God” or interpretations of recorded history of the Koran and the Canonized Bible.

First of all please do not justify or try and parallel Jewish, Christian history of God’s recorded historical revelations to our humanity with Baha, Islam or the Koran.

Let your Baha, Islam, and Koran stand on it’s own merits of what it claims to be true.

Every time your Baha, Islam, or Koran reveals it’s contradictions and deceptions of truth with double meanings and multiple interpretations of one text. Your Baha, Islam and Koran are quick to look at history that does not belong to the Muslims or Baha’s followers.

In other words, don’t look to Christianity or the Jewish faith to justify your Baha’s faith or the Koran of Islamic faith, by speaking ironically or presuming a parallel they are never the same as far as faith and the revelations of God to our humanity is concerned.

Please allow the Baha, Islam and Koran to stand on it’s own merits as Christianity proves to be the True revelations of the God to our humanity.

Your above comment of the Jewish transition to Christianity is totally off base and does not justify your faith as proving itself to be of God. Because you try and justify and merit Baha from a distorted view of history (Jewish transition to Christianity) which is never of the Baha.

Let your Baha stand on it’s own if it is true?

Jesus a born Jew fulfilled both the Law and the Prophets of God. There exists no transition of the Jewish faith to Christianity in the way you falsely speak of here.

I have no clue what your point is about someones pride being hurt? In Christianity God humbles the proud. So speaking as a Christian I have not the pride of the world for God, so as to be hurt by the world by a false pride.

Amazingly they all point to the mid 1800’s. The Koran and Traditions were amazingly accurate as they mentioned the Year 60 (1260 Muslim Era) which corresponded to the Christian year of 1844. The Bible you may note in Daniel & Revelation talks about 1260 (42months).

“And I will appoint my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days (Years in Biblical Prophesy), clothed in sackcloth.”

This is a passage that exactly tells the time of the start of the Muslim Religion and when it ended upon the Declaration of the Bab - Exactly 1260 Years! It was clothed in Sackcloth because of the Division of the Faith immediately after the Passing of Muhammad

Hello tonyfish58, you are communicating with a 2000 year old Roman Catholic faith here. I am not a protestant or non-catholic Christian who adds to God’s Word and invents an 18th century interpretation of the bible never heard of before in all of Christianity.

If you follow such false interpretations of the bible, then you have been duped, I’m sad to say.

Do you really believe such an 18th century invention by men who it has been proven to be a false interpretation.

What relates in the book of revelation which is the fulfillment of Daniel from the eternal reality, which Jesus Christ has already fulfilled. Revelations is heavens victory of Christianity over sin and evil in the World which is a liturgy of celebration which we Catholics celebrate every Sunday and Easter.

Baha and Islam has a lot of catching up to do here. Please if you do not believe the canon of the Bible is not the Word of God, why do you quote from the bible to deceive your Baha faith. Let Baha stand on it’s own truth if it has truth? Don’t use a source you don’t believe to be God’s Word.

**I don’t doubt anyone’s faith in God. But if you want to prove Baha, Koran or Islam to be true, please do so from their own origin and revelation. Please do not piggy back on a history or revelation that was not given to the Baha, Koran or Islam.
**
Peace be with you