How do I counter this Overpopulation argument?

[GEddie]

Remember, though, a “human calorie” is actually 1,000 “scientific calories.”

In metric, this equates to 4.184 kilojoules (kJ).

That’s why on a non-US soda can, for example, you would see kcal and KJ. Both are valid units of thermal energy.

ICXC NIKA.

 

[buffalo]

If no one posted this The Demographic Winter is a good reference.

and

Overpopulation is a Myth

All the worlds population could fit in the state of Texas.

 

[kimmielittle]

Remember, though, a “human calorie” is actually 1,000 “scientific calories.”

In metric, this equates to 4.184 kilojoules (kJ).

That’s why on a non-US soda can, for example, you would see kcal and KJ. Both are valid units of thermal energy.

ICXC NIKA.

It was converted in my examples and links to government energy conversions

Covered here in this post:

The price of gas does not change the energy produced. It produces the same amount of energy no matter what the cost. That is why calories was used.

Remember we are not talking profit gains - we are talking energy sustainability.

eia.doe.gov/energyexplain…page=about_btu

Using calories as a unit of measurement - makes a strong case against ethanol.

Quote:Answer: One gallon of gasoline has 125,000 Btu of energy. (Btu = British thermal unit and is a measure of energy.)

Now we need to know how many calories in a Btu. (Caution. At this point you also need to know that there are two units called calories. A calorie is defined as the energy required to raise 1 gram of water 1 degree C. This is also called a gram calorie and is the calorie unit most used in science. A kilogram calorie (or kilocalorie) is the energy required to raise a kilogram of water 1 degree C. This is the unit used on food labels. Here we call it a food calorie and it equals 1000 calories.)

To convert Btu’s to calories we can go to: eia.doe.gov/kids/energyfa…alculator.html
to get the number of calories in 1 Btu. (We are again using a government web site as reference here.)

Answer: One Btu equals 0.000252 million calories which is 0.252 kilocalories.

Therefore, one gallon of gasoline has (125,000 Btu) x (0.252 kilocalories/Btu) = 31,500 kilocalories (food calories)

1 gallon of gasoline = 31,500 food calories

Since adults typically need 2000 to 2500 food calories per day, this means that (at equal efficiencies) in order to replace one gallon of gasoline with corn based ethanol, we must give up about two weeks (12 to 16 days) of food!

home.dejazzd.com/kgard/bcn/ca…in_gallon.html

 

[kimmielittle]

If no one posted this The Demographic Winter is a good reference.

Yeppers!!!

and

Overpopulation is a Myth

All the worlds population could fit in the state of Texas.

Allowing farmers to do what they do best:thumbsup:

 

[Warrior1979]

Answer: One gallon of gasoline has 125,000 Btu of energy. (Btu = British thermal unit and is a measure of energy.)

Now we need to know how many calories in a Btu. (Caution. At this point you also need to know that there are two units called calories. A calorie is defined as the energy required to raise 1 gram of water 1 degree C. This is also called a gram calorie and is the calorie unit most used in science. A kilogram calorie (or kilocalorie) is the energy required to raise a kilogram of water 1 degree C. This is the unit used on food labels. Here we call it a food calorie and it equals 1000 calories.)

To convert Btu’s to calories we can go to: eia.doe.gov/kids/energyfa…alculator.html
to get the number of calories in 1 Btu. (We are again using a government web site as reference here.)

Answer: One Btu equals 0.000252 million calories which is 0.252 kilocalories.

Therefore, one gallon of gasoline has (125,000 Btu) x (0.252 kilocalories/Btu) = 31,500 kilocalories (food calories)

1 gallon of gasoline = 31,500 food calories

Since adults typically need 2000 to 2500 food calories per day, this means that (at equal efficiencies) in order to replace one gallon of gasoline with corn based ethanol, we must give up about two weeks (12 to 16 days) of food!

This reminds me of those simplistic questions in basic science books that never happen in the real world.

The problem is a simplistic conversion. It does not account for the energy used in producing the food crop, the conversion of food into energy, etc.

 

[GEddie]

I didn’t go to an all girl’s school where calorie counting becomes a way of life. I went to a boy’s school where they talk dollars and sense.

“Calorie counting” is not just about dieting and human body appearance or health; it is also hard physical science, via such appurtenances as the bomb calorimeter used to measure the heat of combustion.

In an entropic universe, all energy can be quantified in terms of heat. Our bodies use heat directly, but all energy conversions produce it. Therefore calories, although non-US studies might say kilojoules.

I’d say your boys’ school didn’t teach much hard science.

God Bless and ICXC NIKA.

 

[kimmielittle]

This reminds me of those simplistic questions in basic science books that never happen in the real world.

The problem is a simplistic conversion. It does not account for the energy used in producing the food crop, the conversion of food into energy, etc.

Actually I did account for the energy producing the calories.

Post # 142

Here’s how country folks measure sustainability… we have this habit of doing so - as our livelihoods demand it.

We measure yield against production costs.

Let’s measure both in calories.

! hand tiller
10 gallons of gas @ 31,000 calories per gallon = 310,000 celeries

My labor @ 1,000 calories per day X 365 days = 365,000 calories I didn’t work near that many days ]

Net Yield over 2,230,000 calories per acre.

-695,000 expended calories

1,535,000 calories gain.

Feeds 2.5 people 2500 calories a day for 365 days on 1 acre of sustainable farming.

Of course, this is 1 person with 1 acre. By your math If I were married more land - more help ]

I have not touched my other .45 of an acre

Because I used calories as a unit…it matters not about processing.
Strawberries need no / little processing…I can gain their caloric values right from the plant every day. Also I allowed 1000 calories of labor times 365 days for such as storage etc.

It doesn’t change the yield of calories.

If I’ve error-ed: In my figures - I think you will find I’ve error-ed against me i.e Gas has 31,500 calories of energy I counted it as 31,000

 

[kimmielittle]

“Calorie counting” is not just about dieting and human body appearance or health; it is also hard physical science, via such appurtenances as the bomb calorimeter used to measure the heat of combustion.

In an entropic universe, all energy can be quantified in terms of heat. Our bodies use heat directly, but all energy conversions produce it. Therefore calories, although non-US studies might say kilojoules.

I’d say your boys’ school didn’t teach much hard science.

God Bless and ICXC NIKA.

 

[wynnejj]

Where is the source for the definition and caloric value of a low-medium yield acre of farm?

How is the figure derived?

I’m having trouble with the concept of an acre of land of a given soil quality generating the same caloric values from no matter what crops are planted.

Please illustrate how your number is no more suspect than my use of 11.61 percent of all the worlds land divided by the world population is inadmissable in calculating the average acreage per person that is used to farm the average person’s annual food supply. I’ve laid out very nicely the calculation, if you care to contest the figures.

Please don’t spend all your time rebutting my assumptions with UNFPA conspiracy theories if you can’t explain the concept of a set caloric value being assigned to an acre of land of low-medium soil quality.

 

[wynnejj]

Kimmie: Is this the source of your information?
localharvest.org/blog/15945/entry/calories_produced_per_acre

Calories Produced Per Acre

…
After doing the research and data entry, I calculated my calorie output for each item by multiplying my yield by the calorie values and totaled the results. My calorie output for 2008, using these methods, came to 2,235,639 calories. The actual amount of land that produced this amount of calories was 1.01 acres, for an index of 2,213,504 calories per acre. I calculated my energy (name removed by moderator)ut in 2008 as 365,000 calories for my labor (365 days X 1000 calories per day - this is probably too high) and 775,000 calories for tiller gas (25 gallons x 31,000 calories per gallon). This means that I produced 2.21 million calories with 1.14 million calories of sweat and petrol - this comes to 1.94 calories produced for every calorie of (name removed by moderator)ut. The number is likely higher since I tilled and planted 2 acres last year. The extra acre was for cover crops and experiments (like my wheat). I also did not actually put 1000 calories into the farm every day last year, but I am erring on the side of caution. The upshot is that I produced enough calories to feed 2.42 people (at 2500 calories a day for 365 days).

The bottom line is that I can measure my calorie (name removed by moderator)uts and outputs and I can state with certainty that sustainable agriculture WILL produce enough food to feed AT LEAST 2.5 people per acre, using hand labor and tillers. Since I am not as productive as I want and I can actually till, plant and harvest 2 acres by myself, I can say with confidence that 1 person can feed AT LEAST 5 people using sustainable methods. For those of you who might quibble about 25 gallons of gas to work 2 acres, consider how much gas you use each week in your cars. Since we are in a Transition period, rather than a No-Gas period, minimal amounts of fossil fuels are justified. I also anticipate my tiller gas usage will continue to drop year by year as I become more efficient. The point is that I can give you production numbers, using a metric (calories) which can be used for humans, petroleum, and even horses.

 

[kimmielittle]

Where is the source for the definition and caloric value of a low-medium yield acre of farm?

How is the figure derived?

I’m having trouble with the concept of an acre of land of a given soil quality generating the same caloric values from no matter what crops are planted.

Please illustrate how your number is no more suspect than my use of 11.61 percent of all the worlds land divided by the world population is inadmissable in calculating the average acreage per person that is used to farm the average person’s annual food supply. I’ve laid out very nicely the calculation, if you care to contest the figures.

Please don’t spend all your time rebutting my assumptions with UNFPA conspiracy theories if you can’t explain the concept of a set caloric value being assigned to an acre of land of low-medium soil quality.

I’m glad you asked…

These are averaged acre calorie / protein yields from USDA of 6 crops.

http://forums.catholic-questions.org/picture.php?albumid=1281&pictureid=8820

As can easily be seen, even soy beats my 2,200,000 calories figure per acre, I used.

Now, as to your claim about UNFPA conspiracy claims - I made no such claim. I asked you to see what CIA Factbook defined as arable land. Arable land by CIA definition… is land under current within 5 years ] cultivation. That means any land not under current cultivation i.e. land not cultivation… land abandoned to cultivation etc… Is NOT counted.

 

[kimmielittle]

Kimmie: Is this the source of your information?
localharvest.org/blog/15945/entry/calories_produced_per_acre

Nope, but thanks for the link I took the lowest of calorie crops listed by USDA. And my actual experience raising crops

Calories Produced Per Acre

…
After doing the research and data entry, I calculated my calorie output for each item by multiplying my yield by the calorie values and totaled the results. My calorie output for 2008, using these methods, came to 2,235,639 calories. The actual amount of land that produced this amount of calories was 1.01 acres, for an index of 2,213,504 calories per acre. I calculated my energy (name removed by moderator)ut in 2008 as 365,000 calories for my labor (365 days X 1000 calories per day - this is probably too high) and 775,000 calories for tiller gas (25 gallons x 31,000 calories per gallon). This means that I produced 2.21 million calories with 1.14 million calories of sweat and petrol - this comes to 1.94 calories produced for every calorie of (name removed by moderator)ut. The number is likely higher since I tilled and planted 2 acres last year. The extra acre was for cover crops and experiments (like my wheat). I also did not actually put 1000 calories into the farm every day last year, but I am erring on the side of caution. The upshot is that I produced enough calories to feed 2.42 people (at 2500 calories a day for 365 days).

The bottom line is that I can measure my calorie (name removed by moderator)uts and outputs and I can state with certainty that sustainable agriculture WILL produce enough food to feed AT LEAST 2.5 people per acre, using hand labor and tillers. Since I am not as productive as I want and I can actually till, plant and harvest 2 acres by myself, I can say with confidence that 1 person can feed AT LEAST 5 people using sustainable methods. For those of you who might quibble about 25 gallons of gas to work 2 acres, consider how much gas you use each week in your cars. Since we are in a Transition period, rather than a No-Gas period, minimal amounts of fossil fuels are justified. I also anticipate my tiller gas usage will continue to drop year by year as I become more efficient. The point is that I can give you production numbers, using a metric (calories) which can be used for humans, petroleum, and even horses.

 

[Monte_RCMS]

In addition, some folks are talented enough to be able to make non-arable land arable; that is, they can make the desert bloom … produce fruit and veggies and raise livestock. It requires talent, however.

Even the poorest of the poor countries can and do produce abundant crops. WITH the management of talented people. Rhodesia used to be a lush breadbasket; then it went with a socialist/totalitarian political model and has been a basketcase ever since.

Not sure the CIA takes that into account.

And it requires the brightest and best who are at work in our bureaucracies to abandon their policy of overriding people working in the field in rural areas.

What they want is for the average person to step aside and let the brightest and best to run things … straight into the ground.

 

[wynnejj]

Good maths for a city dweller

Seems bleak doesn’t it?

Here’s how country folks measure sustainability… we have this habit of doing so - as our livelihoods demand it.

We measure yield against production costs.

Let’s measure both in calories.

! hand tiller
10 gallons of gas @ 31,000 calories per gallon = 310,000 celeries

My labor @ 1,000 calories per day X 365 days = 365,000 calories I didn’t work near that many days ]

Net Yield over 2,230,000 calories per acre.

-695,000 expended calories

1,535,000 calories gain.

Feeds 2.5 people 2500 calories a day for 365 days on 1 acre of sustainable farming.

Of course, this is 1 person with 1 acre. By your math If I were married more land - more help ]

I have not touched my other .45 of an acre

You know I love your calorie counting accounting so much better than the bean counting accounting that one uses for a small business to determine whether I would have enough profit to support the perfect 2.5 member family. You see if I were using the dollars and sense model, my accounting model would be something like this:

$ 310,000 = 10 x $31,000 - Materials

• $ 365,000 = 365 x $1,000 - Labor

---

$ 675,000 - Expenses

Then I tally up all my Revenue. Subtract Expenses to determine Profit.

$ 2,230,000 Revenue (tallied from sale of produce)

• $ 675,000 Expenses

---

$ 1,555,000 Profit

Then I’d calculate the Budget for my perfect 2.5 family.

$ 2,500 Estimated $$$ per day per person
x 2.5 Persons
x 365 Days​

$ 2,230,000 Yearly Budget Requirement

Now to determine if my small business is sustainable, do I compare my Yearly Budget with Revenue or Profits?
The Green Energy math of the calorie counter would use … REVENUE.
The old style Accounting would use … PROFIT.

This is “As Good As It Gets”. I get it, really I do. You ask how do you understand calorie accounting so well…
“You take a bean counter. Then you take away all reasoning and accountability.”

 

[wynnejj]

In addition, some folks are talented enough to be able to make non-arable land arable; that is, they can make the desert bloom … produce fruit and veggies and raise livestock. It requires talent, however.

Even the poorest of the poor countries can and do produce abundant crops. WITH the management of talented people. Rhodesia used to be a lush breadbasket; then it went with a socialist/totalitarian political model and has been a basketcase ever since.

Not sure the CIA takes that into account.

And it requires the brightest and best who are at work in our bureaucracies to abandon their policy of overriding people working in the field in rural areas.

What they want is for the average person to step aside and let the brightest and best to run things … straight into the ground.

100%

 

[kimmielittle]

In addition, some folks are talented enough to be able to make non-arable land arable; that is, they can make the desert bloom … produce fruit and veggies and raise livestock. It requires talent, however.

Even the poorest of the poor countries can and do produce abundant crops. WITH the management of talented people. Rhodesia used to be a lush breadbasket; then it went with a socialist/totalitarian political model and has been a basketcase ever since.

Not sure the CIA takes that into account.

We know from it’s CIA ] definition it doesn’t count the arable farm land just rezoned for the 50 acre parking lot and mall - The Land IS arable, crop producible - IF it were important.

It doesn’t count urban sprawl that once was land under cultivation throughout the world…this is called land “abandoned to cultivation”.

I have no idea why CIA doesn’t call, what they are actually counting, by the proper title - “Land currently cultivated”. We know that land is “arable”- if not why cultivate?

All of Dallas, Memphis, New York City except land filled areas ],…etc sits on “arable land”.

To call it anything else is deceiving IMO

And it requires the brightest and best who are at work in our bureaucracies to abandon their policy of overriding people working in the field in rural areas.

This is why being represented on zoning - planning commissions is so important. However, these are biased toward “expansion growth” and not sustainability.

 

[wynnejj]

Now to determine if my small business is sustainable, do I compare my Yearly Budget with Revenue or Profits?

I didn’t state this right. Of course, the business is sustainable because it shows a profit. But then I would draw an income from the profit, and it would have to meet the needs of my yearly family budget. I don’t draw my income from revenue, though.

 

[kimmielittle]

You know I love your calorie counting accounting so much better than the bean counting accounting that one uses for a small business to determine whether I would have enough profit to support the perfect 2.5 member family. You see if I were using the dollars and sense model, my accounting model would be something like this:

$ 310,000 = 10 x $31,000 - Materials

Actually wrong… But nice try ]

You are counting values of products / profits , gains, margins… BUT to do so, you have to convert to a “Base” - say the Dollar… Dollar in cost against / with dollar made. The Dollar is your counting “Base”. That is what this little sign you use means “$”. You used a Dollar Base.

I’ve explained this to you a few times, on this thread

I am counting energy sustainability. The way to count energy sustainability is comparing calories expended against / with calorie yield. The energy “Base” …is calorie.

Did you say where you went to school?

.

 

[wynnejj]

Actually wrong… But nice try ]

You are counting values of products / profits , gains, margins… BUT to do so, you have to convert to a “Base” - say the Dollar… Dollar in cost against / with dollar made. The Dollar is your counting “Base”. That is what this little sign you use means “$”. You used a Dollar Base.

Wait a year or two after the $USA is not the international standard, inflation is out of control, and re-read and you’ll probably say “That boy is clairvoyant.”.

You are so literal. This is simply using your data to describe what I consider an aptly parallel scenario of cost accounting. The numbers are just plugged in to show how they would relate to what I concieve would be proper cost accounting.

You know, this dialog would be more constructive if you conceded on what points I’m right. I’m really getting tired of YOUR WRONG.

 

[kimmielittle]

I didn’t state this right. Of course, the business is sustainable because it shows a profit. But then I would draw an income from the profit, and it would have to meet the needs of my yearly family budget. I don’t draw my income from revenue, though.

Can you easily think of another reason why for energy sustainability I used calorie instead of say a Dollar base?

Hint: What happens on the market to the dollar? It fluctuates.

Calorie measurement stays the same A calorie is defined as the energy required to raise 1 gram of water 1 degree C. This is also called a gram calorie and is the calorie unit most used in science. A kilogram calorie (or kilocalorie) is the energy required to raise a kilogram of water 1 degree C. This is the unit used on food labels. Here we call it a food calorie and it equals 1000 calories.

We don’t measure BTU energy in dollars for the same reason. Your Bill for the number of BTU’s or Kilowatt hours may go up OR down in dollars - But the math behind the measurement of them remains constant.

I have never made the argument that a monetary profit would be made off of my 1 acre plot - have I?

Why?

I’m not measuring monetary gain or loss