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Aequitas
Guest
How do I counter the claim that the Pope commited a heresy by endorsing the cursades or the inquistions? She’s driving me nuts.
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JimG
Guest
“For starters, the Crusades to the East were in every way defensive wars. They were a direct response to Muslim aggression—an attempt to turn back or defend against Muslim conquests of Christian lands.”
Quote from Thomas Madden, “The Real History of the Crusades” Crisis Magazine, April 1, 2002
crisismagazine.com/april2002/cover.htm
Quote from Thomas Madden, “The Real History of the Crusades” Crisis Magazine, April 1, 2002
crisismagazine.com/april2002/cover.htm
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Della
Guest
Usually, when people bring up either of these issues, they really know nothing about them. Tell her to research them honestly from all sides so that you both can understand what these things were all about. That will throw her for a loop.
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Aequitas
Guest
JimG said:
What about the Inquisitions?
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Lazerlike42
Guest
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Della
Guest
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Genesis315
Guest
Why heresy? What doctrine did they violate? Wars are not intrinsically evil and neither is the death penalty.
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Sherlock
Guest
Aequitas,
The Crusades and the Inquisition are events that have been much distorted through time, thanks to Protestant revisionist historians. The Crusades were largely defensive wars: I would suggest the historian Thomas (? I think it’s Thomas) Madden, who has written extensively about this topic.
The Inquisition has also suffered from the myth-making of Protestant rulers who saw, in the Inquisition, an opportunity to slam the Church for their own ends. The Inquisitional courts were the most advanced courts of their day: there are cases of people, charged with secular crimes, deliberately blaspheming in order to be put into the relatively gentle and sophisticated Inquisitional courts. Which is not to say that abuses and bad things didn’t happen: the total death toll of the Spanish Inquisition (I think it’s just the Spanish Inquisition—it might be the whole Inquisition—I have to double-check), supposedly so terrible, is about 3,500 to 4,000 in a 350-year history. Don’t believe the death toll of millions—they’re ludicrous and unsupported by modern historical research. It’s also interesting to note that the Witch Hunts that killed thousands were far more lethal in Protestant countries that had no Inquisitional courts. Don’t fall for the myths. Steve Kellmeyer has a talk, “Four Questions”, that deals with the Crusades, the Inquisition, Galileo, and the role of Pope Pius XII which dispels the myths surrounding them, as well as shedding some light on just how these events became distorted through history. It’s available on an inexpensive CD ($10) from Bridegroom Press,
at either www.bridegroompress.com, or:
Bridegroom Press
P.O. Box 96
Peoria, IL 61650
I bought this CD at a conference this spring, and found it helpful.
The Crusades and the Inquisition are events that have been much distorted through time, thanks to Protestant revisionist historians. The Crusades were largely defensive wars: I would suggest the historian Thomas (? I think it’s Thomas) Madden, who has written extensively about this topic.
The Inquisition has also suffered from the myth-making of Protestant rulers who saw, in the Inquisition, an opportunity to slam the Church for their own ends. The Inquisitional courts were the most advanced courts of their day: there are cases of people, charged with secular crimes, deliberately blaspheming in order to be put into the relatively gentle and sophisticated Inquisitional courts. Which is not to say that abuses and bad things didn’t happen: the total death toll of the Spanish Inquisition (I think it’s just the Spanish Inquisition—it might be the whole Inquisition—I have to double-check), supposedly so terrible, is about 3,500 to 4,000 in a 350-year history. Don’t believe the death toll of millions—they’re ludicrous and unsupported by modern historical research. It’s also interesting to note that the Witch Hunts that killed thousands were far more lethal in Protestant countries that had no Inquisitional courts. Don’t fall for the myths. Steve Kellmeyer has a talk, “Four Questions”, that deals with the Crusades, the Inquisition, Galileo, and the role of Pope Pius XII which dispels the myths surrounding them, as well as shedding some light on just how these events became distorted through history. It’s available on an inexpensive CD ($10) from Bridegroom Press,
at either www.bridegroompress.com, or:
Bridegroom Press
P.O. Box 96
Peoria, IL 61650
I bought this CD at a conference this spring, and found it helpful.
M
miguel
Guest
A
Aequitas
Guest
I know that, but she’s so set on the fact that it’s a heresy that I don’t know what to say to her.
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Lazerlike42
Guest
Explain to her what a heresy is. Use a dictionary perhaps.
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Della
Guest
Is she a Catholic? If so, you should explain to her that the word heresy is not the same as the word evil, if that is what she is trying to say. A heresy is a teaching that is not in line with the teachings of the Church. A crusade or an inquisition do not fit that definition.
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ElizabethJoy
Guest
Or make her define heresy and explain how the Popes who initiated those actions were heretical? Put her on the defensive instead of her keeping you there?
Don’t let her drive you nuts - whatever claim she could possibly make against the Church has been made before and there are logical and reasonable defenses against all of them.
You’re not on your own - you have the Church’s nearly two millenia of guidance by the Holy Spirit to back you up, no matter what she says. And just look how quickly the other posters were able to help you, just on this forum.
Thanks for all the links in the previous posts!
Don’t let her drive you nuts - whatever claim she could possibly make against the Church has been made before and there are logical and reasonable defenses against all of them.
You’re not on your own - you have the Church’s nearly two millenia of guidance by the Holy Spirit to back you up, no matter what she says. And just look how quickly the other posters were able to help you, just on this forum.
Thanks for all the links in the previous posts!
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Aequitas
Guest
No, she is not Catholic at all. Protestant through and through. She’s a good friend of mine, and it shocked her sort of to find I was leaving Protestantism. And I’ve tried tirelessly to explain “heresy” and “infalliable” yet she just doesn’t grasp it.
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Genesis315
Guest
I find it funny that Protestants can’t accept a pope or council being infallible, yet their own personal interpretation of Scripture is of course error-free
.
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Gracie2004
Guest
Ask her WHICH of the defined heresies the Pope committed…let her find it.
Gracie
Gracie
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Axion
Guest
Here is a good article about the Inquisition and Pope Sixtus’s apprehensions about it from a neutral source.
absoluteastronomy.com/encyclopedia/s/sp/spanish_inquisition.htm
absoluteastronomy.com/encyclopedia/s/sp/spanish_inquisition.htm
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Rand_Al_Thor
Guest
Peace be with you!
In Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis, he says (and this might help if she tries to bring up witches being burned at the stake; which you could also cite all the witches burned by Protestants) that at the time it was believed that witches were real; that they received their power from the devil. And they used that power to kill people, harm people, destroy crops and animals, ect. He says if those people really were witches and did those things, then an execution was justified. Just because we NOW know that there aren’t any witches that do these things doesn’t mean we have made an advancement in morality; only in KNOWLEDGE.
But definitely do ask her to define heresy for you. It means, basically, “wrong belief” and relates to a wrong belief or wrong teaching in regards to Scripture or doctrine. Also ask her why her personal interpretation of Scripture is the one infallible and trustworthy interpretation. Why should you believe what she says over anyone else? And do not let her answer that question by saying “Well, this is what such and such chapter and verse says.”
In Christ,
Rand
In Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis, he says (and this might help if she tries to bring up witches being burned at the stake; which you could also cite all the witches burned by Protestants) that at the time it was believed that witches were real; that they received their power from the devil. And they used that power to kill people, harm people, destroy crops and animals, ect. He says if those people really were witches and did those things, then an execution was justified. Just because we NOW know that there aren’t any witches that do these things doesn’t mean we have made an advancement in morality; only in KNOWLEDGE.
But definitely do ask her to define heresy for you. It means, basically, “wrong belief” and relates to a wrong belief or wrong teaching in regards to Scripture or doctrine. Also ask her why her personal interpretation of Scripture is the one infallible and trustworthy interpretation. Why should you believe what she says over anyone else? And do not let her answer that question by saying “Well, this is what such and such chapter and verse says.”
In Christ,
Rand
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