How do I defend the catholic stand agaisnt masturbation?

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This document deals with the issue at length (Section IX):

IX

The traditional Catholic doctrine that masturbation constitutes a grave moral disorder is often called into doubt or expressly denied today. It is said that psychology and sociology show that it is a normal phenomenon of sexual development, especially among the young. It is stated that there is real and serious fault only in the measure that the subject deliberately indulges in solitary pleasure closed in on self (“ipsation”), because in this case the act would indeed be radically opposed to the loving communion between persons of different sex which some hold is what is principally sought in the use of the sexual faculty.

This opinion is contradictory to the teaching and pastoral practice of the Catholic Church. Whatever the force of certain arguments of a biological and philosophical nature, which have sometimes been used by theologians, in fact both the Magisterium of the Church - in the course of a constant tradition - and the moral sense of the faithful have declared without hesitation that masturbation is an intrinsically and seriously disordered act.[19] The main reason is that, whatever the motive for acting this way, the deliberate use of the sexual faculty outside normal conjugal relations essentially contradicts the finality of the faculty. For it lacks the sexual relationship called for by the moral order, namely the relationship which realizes “the full sense of mutual self-giving and human procreation in the context of true love.”[20] All deliberate exercise of sexuality must be reserved to this regular relationship. Even if it cannot be proved that Scripture condemns this sin by name, the tradition of the Church has rightly understood it to be condemned in the New Testament when the latter speaks of “impurity,” “unchasteness” and other vices contrary to chastity and continence. . . .
vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_19751229_persona-humana_en.html
 
Well one could masturbate in the non fertile times of the womans cycle. So that argument goes out the window.
i have no idea? ask a priest! this is a personal view,i wonder how long this thread will continue? it is what is in the mind at the time of masturbation. I read somewhere if we sin in our hearts we sin in front of god. why do i dare ask why a man cant make love to his wife because she is in her cycle? wow he cant abstain for a while. does he love this woman or does he love sex?
 
I want to get in on this. A lot of people say masturbation is helpful for a future partner because that person will know what will satisfy you. In addition, they say the sex with a partner will last longer because of getting the ‘practice’ in advance. So, they will argue that it’s not all about self. What do you all think of that view?
 
I want to get in on this. A lot of people say masturbation is helpful for a future partner because that person will know what will satisfy you. In addition, they say the sex with a partner will last longer because of getting the ‘practice’ in advance. So, they will argue that it’s not all about self. What do you all think of that view?
:rotfl::rotfl::rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:
 
Leaving Catholic teaching and the question of sin and hell out of it, masturbation is still harmful, because it is purely self-pleasuring.

This can lead to selfish sex, where the whole point is my pleasure, and the other person is just an object through which that pleasure is obtained. That’s abusive. It’s strengthened when one uses fantasy or pornography as an aid.

It can also lead to preferring masturbation to sex with one’s spouse, because that other person’s needs might interfere with my pleasure.

For those who say the point of masturbation is not pleasure, substitute the word “orgasm.”

Ruthie
Hmm. The old “selfish sex line”. You will be hard pressed to find any scientific evidence to support this notion. Those who masturbate have worse sex lives. Unlikely I should imagine.
 
i have no idea? ask a priest! this is a personal view,i wonder how long this thread will continue? it is what is in the mind at the time of masturbation. I read somewhere if we sin in our hearts we sin in front of god. why do i dare ask why a man cant make love to his wife because she is in her cycle? wow he cant abstain for a while. does he love this woman or does he love sex?
Why not love both!
 
Candidly speaking, I masterbate occassionaly but i dont let it consume or define me. Every once in a while. Did you guys know that according to Shia Islam everytime a Muslim masterbates its like he is killing Ali 80 times? Could you imagine telling some Christian that everytime he masturbates he is crucifiying Jesus 80 times?
 
I want to get in on this. A lot of people say masturbation is helpful for a future partner because that person will know what will satisfy you. In addition, they say the sex with a partner will last longer because of getting the ‘practice’ in advance. So, they will argue that it’s not all about self. What do you all think of that view?
I wouldn;t say it;s always true but yeah it can help. And personally I donlt get why the other poster would think that is a laughable suggestion?
 
Katy,

I understand you don’t agree with that view, but if you aren’t going to be charitable about it, please don’t answer.
 
Katy,

I understand you don’t agree with that view, but if you aren’t going to be charitable about it, please don’t answer.
I didn’t mean to be uncharitable, but I can see how it might look that way online, so I apologize.
I have heard people many times excuse their selfish behavior by saying it was for my or someone else’s good. Then harm, sometimes great harm follows. Sex with one’s self is self centered by its nature. Then when sex is engaged in with a partner, the habit is ingrained that the point is that I be satisfied. Since we are naturally rather self centered in the first place, it is that much harder, then, to think of sexual relations as more than relieving and urge or satisfying the self. A habit has been formed. I hope this is a more helpful response.
 
I agree with your entire post, Katy. Thank you for your explanation. 👍
 
I want to get in on this. A lot of people say masturbation is helpful for a future partner because that person will know what will satisfy you. In addition, they say the sex with a partner will last longer because of getting the ‘practice’ in advance. So, they will argue that it’s not all about self. What do you all think of that view?
People claim all kinds of things are for their good, but saying it doesn’t make it so. To claim something like this requires more proof than just “it’s good because I think it’s good.” I’ve heard alcoholics say something similar–they stop at a bar for drinks after work to help them unwind so they will be in a better mood when they finally go home to their wives. Sounds good, doesn’t it, but is it just a way to rationalize?

The same excuse could be made for adultery or pre-marital sex too. “I’m going to have lots of sex with several partners, but I’m doing it for a good reason–to prepare for my future. All this sex will give me lots of practice for my present or future spouse.” Sure, you’ll get at lot of of practice, but is it the right kind of practice to make you a good spouse?

I don’t think so. To prepare yourself for marriage, the best practice is self control.
 
The arguments from Natural Law as in St Augustine and St Thomas have to be re-written. They are correct in practice, viz my own feelings, which after a w**k prove that the Doctors are right. However, their writings may seem to modern people lacking in biological expertise. It is not so since they were not writing on biology but it may seem so since they may have overlooked some inaccuracies or they did not care knowing their direction was OK. I tried to refute some arguments from the Summa that concern things venerial, but the best I could is to wish St Thomas had found better words. For example:

St Thomas writes: “As the Philosopher says in the same book (De Gener. Anim. i, 18), “the semen is a surplus that is needed.” For it is said to be superfluous, because it is the residue from the action of the nutritive power, yet it is needed for the work of the generative power. But the other superfluities of the human body are such as not to be needed, so that it matters not how they are emitted, provided one observe the decencies of social life. It is different with the emission of semen, which should be accomplished in a manner befitting the end for which it is needed”, as if the emission of semen reduces the quality or quantity of it, which, we know, is not the case.

Although the faith is correct, the words may appear misleading.
Or:

St Thomas writes: "A sin, in human acts, is that which is against the order of reason. Now the order of reason consists in its ordering everything to its end in a fitting manner. Wherefore it is no sin if one, by the dictate of reason, makes use of certain things in a fitting manner and order for the end to which they are adapted, provided this end be something truly good’’. Now the questions are what is the end of sexuality, what manner is fitting, and what is the end to which the genitals are adapted? How have all these things been found? Are procreation, marital act and, these two again the only answers? In my view it is at least strange to say this. It is like condemning football by stating that the feet are only adapted to walking. Even so, given that new sperm is better than old, is masturbation not directed to the end of procreation?

As for those suffering from prostate problems, I may quote this:

St Thomas continues: “Now just as the preservation of the bodily nature of one individual is a true good…”. Albeit a curtailed quotation, it is saying what it is saying, that health is a true good.

You see, the Church seems to need new arguments. To say that obedience is the answer is to question the importance of proofs. If obedience is doing all things, what was the reason St Thomas was writing it all for?

From my experience (I’m a celibate male of 23 whose only sex has been masturbation) I can say that contemplation is good, masturbation bad. And I have no theological idea why it is. Because it is contrary to contemplation?

And today I came to a ridiculous answer:
Masturbation is bad because it does not feel good!

From here follows that it is unnatural (It is unnatural for a creature to hurt itself for free). It follows, that it is not the proper use of those organs. Not bad because unnatural but unnatural because bad. It’s unnatural to do what you know is gonna hurt (Kimi’s favourite word).

As for the cases like here at the forum when illness strikes, I do not know. Maybe, as we start looking for better theological terms to deal with masturbation we will better understand its subtleties?

P.S. I wish I had never done it, I wish I had been begirdled forever. But well, fight against lust is also fun, albeit bloody and lossy.
I can’t say whether masturbation is wrong in other people.
And I know not how my organism will work 100% without jerkin’ off. They say it’s healthy. But, anyway, good men are not always longlasting (take St Thomas). Prayer for the sick and, Jesus, help those who deprive themselves of some things for Your sake, even if they err.
 
to a recent reply,i am with you. the only thing multiple partners will get you besides sin is deadwith aids.ha . BUT THIS IS NO JOKING MATTER.sustination is the key.
 
The Confused:
I am discussing this subject with a person. This person doesn’t consider this a sin. He claims that since it doesn’t hurt anyone, it isn’t a sin. That it doesn’t take away from sex. and that it isn’t even sex. I know that this is a sin, but i don’t know how to convey it in a way that this person could understand. This person claims that the view of a masturbation as a sin isn’t biblical. I’m a poor apologist. Please help./
His strongest point is that it is no sex. But is it? It is. But unsure if this quote will convince a Protestant if he is sceptical about Scholasticism.
St Thomas Aquinas:
Pleasure resulting from resolution of semen may arise in two ways. If this be the result of the mind’s purpose, it destroys virginity, whether copulation takes place or not./
Next, that it does not hurt anybody. False. It hurts the agent, e.g. by destroying their virginity. Also, pride, envy, divination, sorcery, magic, don’t hurt anybody but the person committing yet those are certified sins.
Also, their case is weak. A sinner feels they are doing wrong even if they got arguments. There’s unrest in their conscience. Out of stubbornness they won’t openly confess defeat but if you are a good person, an example of Christian living, you will have moved them to truth.

Genesis315 said:
“Heretics are to be converted by an example of humility and other virtues far more readily than by any external display or verbal battles. So let us arm ourselves with devout prayers and set off showing signs of genuine humility and go barefooted to combat Goliath.”
-St. Dominic/
 
You have an interesting perspective, Janet. Thanks for sharing.
 
I have to say, that this is a very very tough case to bring before Protestant Christians.

I have tried numerous times on another forum site, for many many months, and I did not succeed at all.

They do not want to see the truth and the rationale on this.

It’s all about “show me where it says so in the Bible. Oh, it’s not there, we’ll, it’s okay then.”

I used the CCC sections to show them the reasoning and the logic, but all that I got was:
“Well, I’m not Catholic, so I do not believe in the Catechism. Thanks for sharing your view, but I’m not going to follow that.”

They didn’t even want to realise that I was only using the CCC to show then logic reasoning…
Good luck in your quest, but I fear it’s a tough nut to crack!

Good luck!
PM
You can remind them that the Church does not stem from the Bible but vice versa.
 
You’re discussing the wrong subject. Instead of discussing all nuances of Catholic morality, you need to convince him that the Church is the interpreter of morals, and not him. Once someone accepts that, everything else falls into place.
In terms of complexity, it is easier to convince a Protestant that the Catholic Church has the right answers by cracking this problem in a manner that causes tears at hearing the truth. The approach has to be utterly rational and uttely mystical at the same time. I have no idea of ‘learning from the book of the crucifix’, I’m not a spiritual person and myself am now preparing a formula (not mystical) to bring it before ye.
 
I can’t believe that this has actually gone for 7 pages…

First, you don’t have to defend it. That’s right, YOU DO NOT HAVE TO DEFEND THE CATHOLIC STAND AGAINST MASTURBATION!!

Especially if the other person is a “Christian”.

I’m a man…and yes, I know about the subject.

Question: When Jesus Christ discussed lust, and sin…where he spoke of looking at a woman and lusting after her…even if you didn’t commit a physical act with her, you were still guilty of the sin…is that not precisely what one is doing while engaging in the “act”? Its in reference to impure and voyeuristic thoughts…

Seems to me its clear… The other person is merely in denial and if they are a “Christian”, they are in complete denial, and busy embracing a “BK” theology…they just want to have it their way…not God’s way.
 
I can’t believe that this has actually gone for 7 pages…

First, you don’t have to defend it. That’s right, YOU DO NOT HAVE TO DEFEND THE CATHOLIC STAND AGAINST MASTURBATION!!

Especially if the other person is a “Christian”.

I’m a man…and yes, I know about the subject.

Question: When Jesus Christ discussed lust, and sin…where he spoke of looking at a woman and lusting after her…even if you didn’t commit a physical act with her, you were still guilty of the sin…is that not precisely what one is doing while engaging in the “act”? Its in reference to impure and voyeuristic thoughts…

Seems to me its clear… The other person is merely in denial and if they are a “Christian”, they are in complete denial, and busy embracing a “BK” theology…they just want to have it their way…not God’s way.
You donlt have to have those thoughts though…And what is a BK theology?
 
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