How do I defend the Tridententine Mass?

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My Grandma isn’t a very big fan of the Tridentine Mass. She will say you the congregation should understand what’s going on at Mass, there isn’t enough community, and it’s only about the priest and God. How do I defend the Tridentine Mass?
 
The pope and through him the Church follows God who shines His Sun on everyone, and allows the two form together. Why do you want to convince anybody against the will of the pope, that the TLM is for everyone?

There are people who like the Mass far away in pedestal. It has its own value, they feel their sins and do not want to make the Mass dirty.

Other people understand that sins or not

Luke 22:15 And he said to them: With desire I have desired to eat this pasch with you, before I suffer.

and want this closeness with Him, with their full senses. hear, feel, touch, understand.
 
My Grandma isn’t a very big fan of the Tridentine Mass. She will say you the congregation should understand what’s going on at Mass, there isn’t enough community, and it’s only about the priest and God. How do I defend the Tridentine Mass?
The EF does not need to be defended unless it is attacked. I do not see an attack in what you have written above. What I see is “Preference”, and preference is why the two forms of mass are permitted to exist side by side and equally valid in the eyes of the Church.

However - to address the specific objections -

1) the congregation should understand what’s going on at Mass:
I Fully agree. That is why we have missals with all of the prayers and all of the readings etc contained therein. And you might also point out that there are missals printed for the OF as well. The simple fact that the mass is said in Latin is not a block to “understanding what’s going on”

**2) There isn’t enough community, **
A community is made up of those who “commune”. Those who choose to attend the EF, do so because they find a connection with the “community” there. Obviously your grandmother does not feel that she would feels a connection there and so she rightly and legitimately does not attend.

3) It’s only about the priest and God
This is the only thing that comes close to being an “attack” since obviously the mass is NOT “only about the priest and God”…However, given what her other objections are, it would appear that she is not really attacking the mass for what it is, but rather she is stating that for her it “seems” this way and she feels disconnected and left out. So in reality this too is not an attack, but a statement of personal feelings and how she prefers to commune.

I would suggest that, overall, you simply take a conciliatory tone. Simply explain that both masses are licit and acceptable before God as expressed by the Holy Father in Rome and isn’t if wonderful that each of you have access to the form that works the best for your individual spiritual life.

Peace
James
 
The problem of the congregation not being *“able to understand what’s going on at Mass” *has nothing to do with the traditional rite itself. It is not the purpose of the rite to educate the faithful in every aspect, nor make everything so simple and clear that even the so-called “village idiot” can understand it. The Mass is offered up by the priest to God who knows more than anyone the meaning of actions/signignificance of each action and prayer. If the prayer and actions were to be reduced to a point where even, as I said; the village idot could understand them, then we would loose so much of the intrinsic symbolism and theological content which the Mass has aquired. It is enough to know that God understands it, and the Church and priest understands it. Now it is the job of the priest to educate and the laity to learn more about the mass and its meanings. One could study the Roman Rite for years and still not exhaust the meaning of each action and prayer. It takes only a few days/weeks to learn what each part of the Mass is basically about, and what the priest is doing. This knowledge is all that is required.

Regarding the statement that “This is there isn’t enough community” - well I think we must understand what a person means when they talk about community. The tradtional rite was used for centuries - over 1000 years, almost 2000 years in its essentials and the faithful who have attended very much had a sense of community when at Mass. I know I have a greater sense of community in attending the tradtional Mass, partly because I know everyone who attends more or less shares the same position I do etc.

Also, to the accusation that “it’s only about the priest and God” - I would say its all about God, or should be. Also we should be content with letting the Priest who is ordained act in persona Christi and it is not true to say that we participate more or take part more if we say the prayers with the priest - history has shown this to be the case, for no one can claim that the Saints and our fathers participated less than people do now. What I think would help someone who feels confused about the Latin Mass would be to read about it. A lot of Missals have at the start a section explaining the principle parts - books have also been written on this. When I hear of someone who dislikes the traditional rite or says it is defective in some way I usually find they do not full understand it. They dont know why Latin would be used, or the Priest would do something like have his back to them most of the time.
 
. How do I defend the Tridentine Mass?
why is it necessary? if you have the option of attending a parish that has an indult for the Tridentine Mass, go, what does the opinion of anyone else have to do with your choice? Why should your grandmother have to defend to you her choice of the Mass that is the Ordinary Form for the Latin Rite? why is there even an arguement on what is a matter of opinion? you are both talking about peripherals, music etc. and ignoring the essence of the Mass which remains the same.
the EF is not the Tridentine Mass, it is the Mass according to the 1962 missal, several stages of reform removed from the latter.
 
The pope and through him the Church follows God who shines His Sun on everyone, and allows the two form together. Why do you want to convince anybody against the will of the pope, that the TLM is for everyone?

There are people who like the Mass far away in pedestal. It has its own value, they feel their sins and do not want to make the Mass dirty.

Other people understand that sins or not

Luke 22:15 And he said to them: With desire I have desired to eat this pasch with you, before I suffer.

and want this closeness with Him, with their full senses. hear, feel, touch, understand.
Hi Laszlo,

I don’t know if I agree with your distinction.

I feel very close to God in the EF. Yes, I am reminded of my sin but I also know Christ died for us.

Maybe this is my own personal spirituality, but it is important to me that I have a relationship with God and I feel close to God in the mass.
 
The Tridentine Mass (aside from a few local rites like the Ambrosian rite or Mozarabic) is the Liturgy for the Latin Rite of the Church. It is the received and approved rite which has developed organically from the early traditions of the Christians in the Western Roman Empire. The fullness of the Catholic faith (as expressed in the Latin rite) is in the Tridentine Mass. I mean there countless theological defences for it, both from dogmatic statements of ecumenical councils and statements of popes.
 
The Tridentine Mass (aside from a few local rites like the Ambrosian rite or Mozarabic) is the Liturgy for the Latin Rite of the Church. It is the received and approved rite which has developed organically from the early traditions of the Christians in the Western Roman Empire. The fullness of the Catholic faith (as expressed in the Latin rite) is in the Tridentine Mass. I mean there countless theological defences for it, both from dogmatic statements of ecumenical councils and statements of popes.
“The fullness of the Catholic faith”???
Are you saying the fullness of the Catholic faith is not in the OF which is approved by the Church?
 
“The fullness of the Catholic faith”???
Are you saying the fullness of the Catholic faith is not in the OF which is approved by the Church?
No, CC is saying fullness of the Catholic faith is found in the EF. Pretty simple to see if you read the order of the Mass.
 
You can not “defend” the Mass. The Mass in Latin is a beautiful thing, but your grandma is right. It was in a language that the VAST majority of the faithful could not understand, very few people did anything more than walk in, go to communion and walk out when the Mass ended.

I would ask YOU a question. Why do you, who obviously did not live during the era when the Tridentenine Mass was the only Mass used in the Latin Rite, prefer it to the Mass that the Church uses? I would bet that it seems more mysterious, because it is in a foreign language.

Having lived in the ear before Vatican II, and converting to the Catholic Church before Vatican II, I sincerely hope and pray that the next Pope will permanently outlaw the use of that Mass.

It’s about time that the “traditionalists” rejoin the church as it is, and stop trying to yank it back to the middle ages again.
 
No, CC is saying fullness of the Catholic faith is found in the EF. Pretty simple to see if you read the order of the Mass.
The fullness of the faith is found in both the EF and OF, but personally I experience that fullness much more deeply at the EF. There are others who probably experience it deeper at the OF.
 
“The fullness of the Catholic faith”???
Are you saying the fullness of the Catholic faith is not in the OF which is approved by the Church?
Thistle,
C_C said the fullness of the Catholic Faith was found in the “Latin Rite”, then specified the TLM (which is one form of the Rite), but I do not believe he meant “at the exclusion of the Novus Ordo”.

Personally, I view the TLM as the clearer, more definitive elucidation of the Faith, but by saying that I neither mean nor infer that the fullness is somehow “lacking” in the NO.

I thank God for the inestimable gift of the Mass, regularly participate in both forms of the Latin Rite (the OF on weekdays, the EF on Sundays), yet maintain a (decided) preference for the TLM. : )

Cordially,
PAB
 
Having lived in the ear before Vatican II, and converting to the Catholic Church before Vatican II, I sincerely hope and pray that the next Pope will permanently outlaw the use of that Mass.

It’s about time that the “traditionalists” rejoin the church as it is, and stop trying to yank it back to the middle ages again.
Wow!

I appreciate that you were around before Vatican II and based on your previous posts, I understand how it may have been hard for some to understand what went on during the mass. I am even willing to concede that maybe for some of us who are new to the EF, the mystery may be a big part.

But why do you have such hostility towards the EF and traditionalists?

The EF may not be for you, but you shouldn’t wish ill on those who love it.
 
It’s about time that the “traditionalists” rejoin the church as it is, and stop trying to yank it back to the middle ages again.
Most people who favor the old liturgy have no need to rejoin the church because they are part of the church. This is a liturgy that I have found very powerful. Why would you want to deny me the right to experience this liturgy which was experienced by so many saints. Likewise, I would never want to deprive you of the OF which you clearly find more powerful for you.

What was once sacred will always be sacred.
 
My Grandma isn’t a very big fan of the Tridentine Mass. She will say you the congregation should understand what’s going on at Mass, there isn’t enough community, and it’s only about the priest and God. How do I defend the Tridentine Mass?
I think you should emphasize what you find appealing about the traditional Mass.

With the Mass in the vernacular, I think it is easier for people to get the impression that it is just people talking back and forth with nothing mystical going on, but the Latin language signals that something out of the ordinary is happening, something mysterious [sorry, O.M.] and timeless. Then the content of the old Mass’s holy prayers teaches us the same thing, that what we can see and hear is only a tiny fraction of what happens at Mass and that what is essential is invisible.

Like TrueLight, I feel close to God in the EF. I actually find it easier to remember that I am in the presence of God in the old Mass than in the new. So for me, anyway, the traditional form of the Mass is more of a help than a hindrance in understanding what is going on.

And like Iotaunum, I feel more of a sense of community with those sitting in the pews with me in the EF than the OF, precisely because they and I have chosen a Mass that is all about God, not us, and we have the common purpose of worshipping our Lord. The sense of community springs from the shared purpose.

In the EF, I also feel more of a sense of community with the Catholics of generations past, given the opportunity to worship God in the way that your grandmother did when she was young, and the way that her grandparents did, and the way that their grandparents did, etc, etc.
 
You can not “defend” the Mass. The Mass in Latin is a beautiful thing, but your grandma is right. It was in a language that the VAST majority of the faithful could not understand, very few people did anything more than walk in, go to communion and walk out when the Mass ended.

I would ask YOU a question. Why do you, who obviously did not live during the era when the Tridentenine Mass was the only Mass used in the Latin Rite, prefer it to the Mass that the Church uses? I would bet that it seems more mysterious, because it is in a foreign language.

Having lived in the ear before Vatican II, and converting to the Catholic Church before Vatican II, I sincerely hope and pray that the next Pope will permanently outlaw the use of that Mass.

It’s about time that the “traditionalists” rejoin the church as it is, and stop trying to yank it back to the middle ages again.
O_M,
Surely you don’t mean that one needs to be fluent in Latin in order to derive graces/blessings from the TLM? After all, for us American folks, the English translation parallels the Latin text in order to surmount that very obstacle.

As for those who apparently do little more than walk in, receive Holy Communion, then walk out of Mass (with the inference that such people “got” little or nothing from the TLM), that very same depiction would suit most NO Masses that I attend. Sure, they walk out right after receiving: skipping the post-Communion prayer, the final blessing and the dismissal. Pre-Vatican II Masses, in the manner you describe them, did not have exclusive domain in that respect.

In answer to your question, Why?–please o.k. my interception–I attend the TLM because, for me, it more soundly, more richly and more beautifully expresses the Catholic Faith which I have come to embrace as a convert from Pentecostalism (long after the Council adjourned). Those like myself cannot be cataloged as looking backward (i.e. into the years prior to Vatican II), since such a reference point, for us, does not exist. To the contrary, we are forward-looking, full of hope nurtured by the TLM. And for me to say that the “mysteriousness” of Latin as a foreign language constituted the primary attractant would be short-changing the Mass at best, profaning it at worst.

You seem disgruntled with our current Holy Father, Benedict XVI, because he is taking resolute and positive measures to preserve the precious patrimony of the Traditional Latin Mass. Your express desire that the TLM be permanently outlawed (!) by the “next pope” baffles me, especially since you offer no supporting rationale for that sort of violent predisposition toward those of us who are devoted to the TLM,

We “Traditionalists”–here I mean those of us not in formal schism–needn’t “rejoin” the Church, since we never forfeited our membership or had it revoked. In fact, our aim is to be Church members more and more fully. with greater zeal and intensity in the Faith, with ever-increasing love for Our Lord and Our Lady.

Lastly, please don’t malign the Middle Ages (I honestly can’t fathom why a Roman Catholic would ever wish to). That era, rightly dubbed the “Age of Faith”, gave us great saints, like Thomas Aquinas, Albert the Great and Bonaventure, just to name a few. (Check the new, post-Vatican II calendar; they’re still there.) Terms like “Middle Ages” or “Medieval” have for some reason been given a “negative spin” lately, particularly in reference to the Church. Those who wield them with derision, as bywords, also exhibit the tendency to ignore large chunks of history, disavowing the Church Herself in the process. This amounts to practical–call it “temporal”–schism.

Cordially,
PAB
 
You can not “defend” the Mass. The Mass in Latin is a beautiful thing, but your grandma is right. It was in a language that the VAST majority of the faithful could not understand, very few people did anything more than walk in, go to communion and walk out when the Mass ended.

I would ask YOU a question. Why do you, who obviously did not live during the era when the Tridentenine Mass was the only Mass used in the Latin Rite, prefer it to the Mass that the Church uses? I would bet that it seems more mysterious, because it is in a foreign language.

Having lived in the ear before Vatican II, and converting to the Catholic Church before Vatican II, I sincerely hope and pray that the next Pope will permanently outlaw the use of that Mass.

It’s about time that the “traditionalists” rejoin the church as it is, and stop trying to yank it back to the middle ages again.
blah blah blah, just more attacks by you to those who personally feel drawn to the EF. I didn’t grow up prior vatican 2, yet someone who is in his 20s has found spiritual growth in the EF. So your point is what? That I don’t receive full grace because I don’t understand Latin? Should there not be some mystery in the mass? Everyone, according to old medic those who preffer the EF and follow traditional practices are not fully joined to the Church. Can you please explain?
 
Honestly the Mass can defend itself. It was the Mass for hundreds of years. Countless Popes, Bishops, Saints, and laity had this Mass united all throughout the world no matter what country or local language. Anyone that has a bone to pick with Latin should look at the tradition of our church and realize* it has always and will be the Roman Rite’s language.* It’s not going anywhere. Silly Americans might I add need everything in one language because they are incapable of learning anything but English :rolleyes:
 
O_M,



As for those who apparently do little more than walk in, receive Holy Communion, then walk out of Mass (with the inference that such people “got” little or nothing from the TLM), that very same depiction would suit most NO Masses that I attend. Sure, they walk out right after receiving: skipping the post-Communion prayer, the final blessing and the dismissal. Pre-Vatican II Masses, in the manner you describe them, did not have exclusive domain in that respect.


Cordially,
PAB
Thank you for pointing that out! Excellent point:thumbsup:
 
You can not “defend” the Mass. The Mass in Latin is a beautiful thing, but your grandma is right. It was in a language that the VAST majority of the faithful could not understand, very few people did anything more than walk in, go to communion and walk out when the Mass ended.

I would ask YOU a question. Why do you, who obviously did not live during the era when the Tridentenine Mass was the only Mass used in the Latin Rite, prefer it to the Mass that the Church uses? I would bet that it seems more mysterious, because it is in a foreign language.

Having lived in the ear before Vatican II, and converting to the Catholic Church before Vatican II, I sincerely hope and pray that the next Pope will permanently outlaw the use of that Mass.

It’s about time that the “traditionalists” rejoin the church as it is, and stop trying to yank it back to the middle ages again.
Granted, the Extraordinary Form is not for everyone. To fully participate, one must first understand the history of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass and its role in the corporate worship of the Catholic Church. Next, one needs to become familiar with the Order of Mass and associated rubrics. Then, simply obtain one of the red Latin-English missals and practice the prayers and responses.

If the Traditional Latin Mass is only for those willing to expend this effort for the glorification of God, certainly Holy Mother Church, in all her charity, can find a place for them.
.
 
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