How do I explain this to my brother?

[Valtiel]

Okay me and my brother are in an argument over salvation. He as a protestant says it’s by faith alone that we are saved. I have shown him scriptures that says we need both faith and works. He’s also given me some passages;

For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life" (John 3:16).

John 20:31: “these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.”

Pual:
if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

And he goes on to sort of mock me that it is rediculous that God wouldn’t let people into heaven if they didn’t do any good works, I tried to explain to him it’s not good works but the sacraments such as babtism (I’ve shown him john 3:5 but he still thinks baptism is a profession of faith) and the eucharist, but he tells me their all metaphoric and still works like charity and such. And goes on to say that they are only a product of conviction, that you don’t have to do them, but through your rebirth you want to do it, or something like that. I’m seriously trying to convert him, how can I explain this to him…

 

[mercygate]

Val, think about it; Paul does not say, for example: “If you confess with your mouth but don’t do anything else you will be saved.” Paul is emphasizing that faith is the key. Paul is also the guy who tells us in the Philippians 2:12 to “work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.”

Catholics believe that we are saved by grace through faith. Without faith, it ain’t happenin.’ Catholics believe that if a man on his deathbed does nothing more than confess Jesus, that he will be saved. But Catholics also believe (according to the Scriptures you have shown your brother) that in the ordinary course of life, our walk with Christ is a daily dying to self, a daily taking up of our cross, a daily choosing to live his life, his way. This is not “works righteousness.” This is the consequence of having free will, without which we cannot love.

 

[Valtiel]

bump…

 

[miguel_delgado]

Dear Friends:

Here Is The Bible Answer: (1st Pardon My English And If I Err Tell Me)

James 2 14,18 What Dows It Profit My Bretheren If A Man Says He Has Faith But Has Not Works? Can His Faith Save Him?? If A Brother Or Sister Is Ill-clad And In Lack Of Dayly Food And One Of You Says To Them “go In Peace, Be Warmed And Filled” Without Giving Them The Things Needed For The Body What Does It Profit? So Faith By Itself If It Has No Works Is Dead…

And In Verse 19 Said. “even The Demons Belive”

So Here Is My Question: The Demons Belive, Then Why Are They Not Save??? Only Faith Saves??? Who Is Right, Sola Fide Or Sola Scriptura???

 

[LoneRanger]

Valtiel:

Okay me and my brother are in an argument over salvation. He as a protestant says it’s by faith alone that we are saved. I have shown him scriptures that says we need both faith and works. He’s also given me some passages;

And he goes on to sort of mock me that it is rediculous that God wouldn’t let people into heaven if they didn’t do any good works, I tried to explain to him it’s not good works but the sacraments such as babtism (I’ve shown him john 3:5 but he still thinks baptism is a profession of faith) and the eucharist, but he tells me their all metaphoric and still works like charity and such. And goes on to say that they are only a product of conviction, that you don’t have to do them, but through your rebirth you want to do it, or something like that. I’m seriously trying to convert him, how can I explain this to him…

none of those scripture support his “faith alone” argument.

 

[Charles]

The reality is that we are not saved “by” either faith or works. We are saved by Grace, which is from God. Does God ask something of us? Yes, he asks for both faith and works.

Note that both faith and works are things we do, and in that respect they are both works. Grace is a gift freely given.

Charles

 

[Tietjen]

Valtiel:

Okay me and my brother are in an argument over salvation. He as a protestant says it’s by faith alone that we are saved. I have shown him scriptures that says we need both faith and works. He’s also given me some passages;

You’re right. The only place in the entire Bible where the words “Faith alone” appear is in James 2:14-24. Show it to him and ask him how it is the Bible declares that a man is justified by works and not by “faith alone.” Now let’s address the verses your brother used.
Valtiel's Brother:

For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life" (John 3:16).

This is true but if you think of it as a recipe for a second, can you make a cake with simply flour? “Believes in Him” is the flour now add the eggs, milk, etc. (works) and before you know it you have a nice cake; unless I’m the cook because I end up burning everything.
Valtiel's Brother:

John 20:31: “these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.”

Guess what, the devil believes that “Jesus is the Christ” so if belief were the only thing required will we meet him in Heaven? Me thinkest not.
Valtiel's Brother:

Paul:
if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

Again, belief is an ingredient; it’s not the finished product. See the first two answers to your brother’s verses above.

Valtiel:

And he goes on to sort of mock me that it is rediculous that God wouldn’t let people into heaven if they didn’t do any good works, I tried to explain to him it’s not good works but the sacraments such as babtism (I’ve shown him john 3:5 but he still thinks baptism is a profession of faith) and the eucharist, but he tells me their all metaphoric and still works like charity and such. And goes on to say that they are only a product of conviction, that you don’t have to do them, but through your rebirth you want to do it, or something like that.

I am a cradle Catholic. However, when I was younger my parents wanted me in private school because the public schools in Miami were less than acceptable. They couldn’t afford the Catholic schools so I ended up going to a Baptist school for 3 years of elementary school. For a kid of 10, it was scary being subjected to all the “hell and damnation” stuff day in and day out. It scared me so bad, that in the 5th grade I came to the alter during Baptist “education” Church service and prayed “The Sinner’s Prayer” accepting Jesus as my personal Savior. I didn’t renounce the Catholic Church or anything like that, but in my mind I was terrified of what might happen to me if the Baptists were right & I was wrong. I truly felt the desire to assure my salvation and was deeply troubled by the dilemma that I found myself in… to the point of tears. Now, by Baptists standards I was “saved.” There was nothing more for me to do. Yet, I didn’t feel any different. Temptations still plagued me. I didn’t feel the need to start giving my weekly allowance to the poor, but that was okay because I had what I needed according to the Baptists at my school. I could have gone on to be an axe murderer in my 30’s and yet, according to their beliefs, I would still be “saved” because of the 10 minutes I took out of my life at age 10 to say “The sinner’s Prayer” was all I needed to go to Heaven. Since that time, I have met other Baptists who have told me that if I had truly meant “The Sinner’s Prayer” it would have been impossible for me to become an axe murder. These Baptists claim that those that truly say and mean “The Sinner’s Prayer” will have the works associated with charity. It will come as second nature to do good in the world. In other words, you will no longer have free choice, it will simply happen. I beg to differ. I know myself. I know who I was at that alter some 30 years ago. I know what I prayed and that at that moment I meant every word of what I was praying. Yet, I also know that I am capable of still doing some very uncharitable things to include killing a person who breaks into my home or an enemy soldier who is simply doing his job to kill me. Charitable works are an ongoing thing that doesn’t simply come naturally all the time. The “faith alone” dogma is not only a lie it’s unnatural.
In closing, have him look at:
Mt 7:21 - talking about the will of the Father (A work)
Mt 19:16-17 - talking about keeping the Commandments (A work)
Jn 14:21 - again about the Commandments (A work)
Rom 2:2-8 - perseverance in good works (A work)
Gal 5:4-6 - faith working through love (A work)
Eph 2:8-10 - created for good works (A work)
Phil 2:12-13 - work out salvation with fear & trembling (A work)
Heck, even deciding to say “The Sinner’s Prayer” is a work.
God bless.

 

[LSK]

You can ask your brother if he thinks scripture is to be taken literally or as a literalist. If he doesn’t know the difference explain it.

What is the difference: If say to you “It’s raining cats and dogs out there” you know I mean it is raining pretty darn hard, right? That is because you are reading that statement in a literal sense. If you were a literalist, you would think we have to dodge doggies and kitties falling from the sky.

Next, ask him if he accepts Jesus’ word above all others - about St. Paul, St. Peter, EVERYONE ELSE in the Bible. If he says yes, ask him what Jesus told the rich man who asked what he had to do to achieve eternal salvation. Did he say “Just believe in me?”.

NOPE

He gave him specific stuff to do - sell his possessions, give all the proceeds to the poor, follow Jesus…

in other words, he had to DO SOME THINGS in order to achieve salvation. The Catholic Church teaches no less than the word of The One True Savior.

Now go for it - but first, before you talk to him, take at least an hour and pray for the Holy Spirit to guide you so that you may speak from love and not frustration, anger or in hopes of ‘winning’ an argument.

Love in Christ -

 

[Philthy]

Valtiel:

Okay me and my brother are in an argument over salvation. He as a protestant says it’s by faith alone that we are saved. I have shown him scriptures that says we need both faith and works. He’s also given me some passages;
And he goes on to sort of mock me that it is rediculous that God wouldn’t let people into heaven if they didn’t do any good works, I tried to explain to him it’s not good works but the sacraments such as babtism (I’ve shown him john 3:5 but he still thinks baptism is a profession of faith) and the eucharist, but he tells me their all metaphoric and still works like charity and such. And goes on to say that they are only a product of conviction, that you don’t have to do them, but through your rebirth you want to do it, or something like that. I’m seriously trying to convert him, how can I explain this to him…

No offense, but are you sure you are meant to be “converting” people? Arguments won’t do it. Conversion occurs by the Grace of God. Remember: preach the gospel always; use words when necessary. Try and make your life a witness to your faith, not your logical/intellectual acumen. At least start there. There is also a place for discussion, but always be charitable.

That much being said, you and your brother need to carefully consider what, exactly, is meant by terms like faith, salvation, and faith alone. Have you thought about what faith means to you? Is it the same as belief? Is it possible to believe that you believe something when in fact you do not? How does one know that they have faith? How do they know when they believe with their heart? What is salvation? When does it occur? Is it a process, a destination or both? Is it instantaneous, permanent and complete in this life? Or is it partial, contingent and incomplete in this life?

I’m not trying to overwhelm you with questions, but you two are into some heavy stuff - proceed slowly and with love. It sounds like you don’t have all the answers you wish to have. Why not take some time to study before being compelled to speak and attempt to correct others? Two books that are excellent and easily read resources are Karl Keatings Catholicism and Fundamentalism, and David Curries Born Fundamentalist, Born Again Catholic. In addition, the Catholic Answers homepage has clear, concise summaries of many such topics. Start reading one today. Here is the first one you should read:
catholic.com/library/salvation.asp
There is just so much to this topic of faith alone, but I will give you my 2 cents. The term “faith alone” is a misnomer meant to address the topic of the selling of indulgences for salvation in the 16th century. Since then it has been broadened to include any effort on the part of man to contribute to his own salvation. After all, it is only by Grace that we are saved through faith. The problem, however, is that faith and obedience are inseparable. To “have faith” in Christ is not simply to believe intellectually, but also to ACT accordingly. You must read the book of James Chapter 2 TODAY. In it you will find the ONLY place in the bible where the term “faith alone” is used. Heres what it says: See how a person is justified by works and NOT BY FAITH ALONE? For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead." Jesus tells us this much: “Whoever has my commandments and observes them is the one who loves me.” John 14:21 I could go on and on with verses that speak of DOING the will of the Father, etc. What your brother is confusing is the concept of “works alone” as being a means to salvation. He wrongly believes that this is the Catholic position - it is not. Our works are our cooperation with our belief, by the Grace of God, and together they are known as our faith. It is the exercise of free will to cooperate with God’s grace through our faith rather than rejecting it through sin. This is a lifelong process, and, as Paul says, “only he who perseveres 'til the end will be saved.”

I hope this is helpful - PM me if you need/want more…

Phil