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VociMike
Guest
So you are saying that if one loves God (truly loves him, of course, not false love), that person won’t enter heaven?!
Give me one scenario of a person who truly loves God and yet does not enter heaven.
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Give me one scenario of a person who truly loves God and yet does not enter heaven.
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Nita
Guest
Found it in “Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma”, p244:
Quote:
The Council of Trent declared against Calvin, that certainty in regard to one’s predestination can be attained by special Revelation only; …D 805; cf. 825 et seq.
Nita
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cmancone
Guest
Christianvet, please do me a favor. Try not to make any assumptions about me. I promise to not make any assumptions about you. For instance:
- I am not protestant, I am evangelical. There’s a big difference, and I’d be happy to explain if you wanted (on another post, of course).
- “Protestants” don’t all believe OSAS. I certainly never claimed to. Nor will I claim to. Please don’t assume I believe it.
- I DO understand catholic teaching, and I understand that Catholicism doesn’t teach being saved by works. I understand that in the official teachings of the Catholic church, a person is saved by grace through faith, and not by any works they do. In fact, I see very little difference between what I believe about being saved and what the Catholic church believes about being saved. I should have been more clear. I was in fact referring to the ACTUAL teachings of the Catholic church. I spent a very large portion of my life as a dedicated Catholic, and I have certainly known many Catholics very well. From my own experiences and those of the many Catholics I’ve known, it has become apparent to me that there is a big difference between the actual teaching and the official teaching of the Catholic church. The catechism of the Catholic church makes it clear that we are saved by grace. The actual teachings put a strong emphasis on doing that makes many mistakenly believe they are saved by works. I know that’s what I thought, and 20 years of church going and 10 years of catholic school never taught me otherwise. It is the actual teaching of the Catholic church that I have trouble with. Look again at the post I was responding to:
Read carefully, and you’ll see what I’m saying. The poster says, “If you remain in a state of grace, if you avail yourself of the sacraments”. The emphasis is entirely on what the person does, and not on the grace of God. This is what I was taught as a Catholic, and this is what most of the Catholics I know were taught. It is a dangerous teaching that neither I nor the Catholic church agrees with.
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VociMike
Guest
That’s because there is no “if” on God’s end. God is true to his word. There is no question about God’s faithfulness to us. God’s primary role in our salvation is a given in any such discussion. But there is a question about our faithfulness to him. Thus the matter of “if this” and “if that”. And why don’t you have a similar problem if somebody were to say “if you have faith in Christ as Lord and Savior”? How come some “ifs” are bad and others are OK?
God will never let go of the rope, but we might.
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LilyM
Guest
Remember too that there are different understandings of ‘predestination’ ‘election’ et al.
Catholics don’t believe that God predestines any of His children for damnation, this is contrary to the explicit Bible verse stating that He desires the salvation of all.
Although He certainly predestines at least some for heaven. Witness the angel telling Mary that she has found favour with God (even before she agrees to bear Christ, which is interesting) and Zechariah prophesying about John’s future greatness.
But no, normally a person is not granted to know during their lifetime that they are saved. For starters salvation depends on one’s state at the time of death. Every breath of life brings a sinner a fresh opportunity to convert, or a hitherto righteous one a possibility to sin and offend God.
A verse was quoted earlier from Paul discussing ‘election and calling’. The call to follow Christ, the grace of hearing His gospel, and the call to ministry and preaching - are these not an election and calling in themselves?
Does that mean everyone who is called answers, or that everyone who is called and answers fulfils God’s will sufficiently to be certain of salvation? No.
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GandalfTheWhite
Guest
Sorry, but there is no such thing as actual teaching of the Church and official teaching of the Church. There is only one Faith and everything else is not Catholic. You need to understand that there are many groups who claim to be Catholic but teach something else. A lot of these people are simply misinformed and ignorant of what the Church really teaches but there are some who are simply heretics. However many people will try to tell you that simply being a good guy will take you to heaven will not change the fact that they are wrong - fact. However many people will try to tell you that that’s what the Church believes doesn’t change the fact that they are wrong - fact. Once again, there is not such thing as actual teaching. There is only Official teaching and then everything else.
As for Catholics schools - I’ve never been in one but my priest pretty much confirmed this. He said many Catholic schools seem to teach with the spirit of pelagianism. I know many who hold similar views and coincidentally studied in Catholic schools.
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cmancone
Guest
So, when the priest every week gives the impression that you are saved by works, that’s not the actual teaching of the Catholic church? When the teachings of a priest seem to contradict the “official” teaching of the catholic church, then he is part of another group that is claiming to be catholic but isn’t really? You seem to have missed my point. The official teachings of the catholic church is what the Catechism says is Catholic teachings. The actual teachings of the Catholic church are the things that are actually taught every sunday at church. There is no guarantee that these two are one and the same. They are often different. Really, it would be foolish to believe that every single priest always teaches exactly what they are supposed to teach.
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frnate
Guest
The key is to have faith that you are and to work like you’re not sure that you are. We’ll know when we get to Heaven.
Peace,
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Drunken_Master
Guest
Whoa, whoa, slow down a second. I always thought that Jesus told us how to get to salvation, now are you guys saying that we have to be picked? We can do all in our power to follow the techings of Christ and not get into Heaven because we need to be picked?
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Baraq
Guest
The elect were chosen before the foundation of the earth was laid
Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Romans 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
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Truthstalker
Guest
Yep.
You can’t get to heaven on your own power. You need God’s help (grace, gifts, etc.) to get there. You cannot earn your salvation. Your works are not good enough. Salvation is a gift, freely given. Not by works, lest anyone should boast. It is on the one hand what you do with it and on the other hand what God does “behind the scenes” - He predestines people without violating their free will, which is something only He can do.
It is standard Catholic theology that you need the gift of final perseverance to make it into heaven. You can’t sweat it out on your own. What you do is “not by might, nor by power, but by My Spirit.” Salvation is by grace, not human effort.
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Drunken_Master
Guest
This seems to be totally unfair. A man can give his life totally to the Lord, sacrificing all he has or could have to work in the service of the Lord, but Our all Merciful God can not reward this poor wretched creature for his efforts? He dies, gets to the Gates of the Kingdom, and then is told, “Oh, sorry you wasted your life, but you aren’t one of the Chosen.” I refuse to believe that. Please tell me I have misunderstood part of the argument. Tell me Our Holy Church does not teach such a foolish opinion.
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GandalfTheWhite
Guest
No. That’s the teaching of the priest not of the Church. You said it yourself. The Church doesn’t have more than one teaching and her teachings don’t contradict.
I don’t know. I can’t judge such things. He may be ignorant of the real teaching and perhaps only needs someone to explain it to him. Perhaps you are only misinterpreting him when he emphasizes how Christians should live their lives. As I said, I don’t know.
But you see, just because someone is Catholic and teaches something contrary to the Church (let’s say out of ignorance), he is not teaching what the Church teaches. He is teaching a heresy. Perhaps in Protestantism the church, as you understand it, may have many contradictory teachings but this doesn’t apply to the Catholic Church.
→ Which church? Your church? My church? My friend’s church?
→ How many churches have to teach it for it to become the actual teaching of the Church? Are are there several actual teachings of the Catholic Church?
I’ve never met a priest who would teach that we are saved by works or anything close to that.
Perhaps it’s the ‘actual teaching of the Catholic Church in the area where you live’.
I don’t believe that. That would indeed be foolish. But I think that it is also foolish to believe that Catholic schools and the priests you’ve listened to must teach make together some kind of ‘actual teaching’.
Now, let me ask you a question. If you will happen to hang a lot around these people, will you claim that the Church actually teaches that there is such thing as Catholic priestesses?
And last thing, the dictionary meaning of the word actual is existing. There is only one existing teaching of the Catholic Church. Sorry, but you are wrong.
In Christ,
~G
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jj2011
Guest
You don’t.
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GandalfTheWhite
Guest
Well, no. God doesn’t choose who will be condemned and who will be saved simply by picking few people and allowing them to be saved and damning the rest. I think that’s pretty much what Calving taught. We have the chance to turn to God and accept his Grace, without which we are hopeless, but we can simply refuse it. Therefore I would assume that the person who “has given his life to the Lord, sacrificing all he has or could have to work in the service of the Lord” hasn’t done it simply on his own but by accepting his Grace allowing our Lord to work through his life. In fact, even true Faith is a gift from God.
This is how I understand it. Please correct me if that’s not exactly what the Church teaches since I’m still trying to fully understand it .
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Teflon93
Guest
That is VERY well-put.
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jemfinch
Guest
You can’t lose and regain your “election”–that’s a decision God made from all eternity. We can step in and out of salvation by choosing not to continue to receive the supernatural life of grace that God offers and later repenting of it, but God’s election remains unchanged.
Jeremy
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mikeledes
Guest
I’m not sure if anyone here is familiar with Harold Camping. He is a staunch Calvinist and head of Family Radio Ministries. He also believes thw world’s coming to an end and that the “Church Age” is over. That means that all true Christians must stop attending churches because God has ceased working through them. If you insist on attending a church, that is a sign that you are not of the elect. Now his followers believe that they are members of the elect and that fellow church attending Calvinists may not be of the elect. The point of this is that infallible knowledge is impossible to obtain because we can easily deceive ourselves and that not all of the justified will persevere to the end.
If by election we mean predestination to glory, that “election” cannot be lost.
Many of the issues being discussed in this thread were addressed in the “Golden Chain” thread:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=159911
All who are in Christ have been chosen by God to be in Christ. So, in a general sense, all true members of the Body of Christ are “elect.” However, not all in Christ will abide/remain in Christ (John 15). The idea of a genuinely justified person falling away is addressed in the following thread:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=163236&page=11
Those who do not persevere in Christ were not predestined to glory.
Luke 10:25-28
**25And a lawyer stood up and put Him to the test, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?”
26And He said to him, “What is written in the Law? How does it read to you?”
27And he answered, “YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND; AND YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.”
28And He said to him, “You have answered correctly; DO THIS AND YOU WILL LIVE.” **
And this love is expressed in keeping God’s commadments, His moral demands. We are no longer under the Mosaic Law (i.e. the Law) but under the Law of Christ and His law is love and by this law we shall be judged.
God Bless,
Michael
If by election we mean predestination to glory, that “election” cannot be lost.
Many of the issues being discussed in this thread were addressed in the “Golden Chain” thread:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=159911
All who are in Christ have been chosen by God to be in Christ. So, in a general sense, all true members of the Body of Christ are “elect.” However, not all in Christ will abide/remain in Christ (John 15). The idea of a genuinely justified person falling away is addressed in the following thread:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=163236&page=11
Those who do not persevere in Christ were not predestined to glory.
Correct! No one has ever been or ever will be justified by the Mosaic Law. But we also have Jesus saying:
Luke 10:25-28
**25And a lawyer stood up and put Him to the test, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?”
26And He said to him, “What is written in the Law? How does it read to you?”
27And he answered, “YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND; AND YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.”
28And He said to him, “You have answered correctly; DO THIS AND YOU WILL LIVE.” **
And this love is expressed in keeping God’s commadments, His moral demands. We are no longer under the Mosaic Law (i.e. the Law) but under the Law of Christ and His law is love and by this law we shall be judged.
God Bless,
Michael
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Teflon93
Guest
Surely you are not disagreeing with Christ!
Mathhew 19:
16] And behold, one came up to him, saying, “Teacher, what good deed must I do, to have eternal life?”
[17] And he said to him, “Why do you ask me about what is good? One there is who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments.”
Someone else has posted the complementary Luke passage.
“Love God and keep the commandments” is a perfectly valid paraphrase of these two key passages.
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mikeledes
Guest
I can see that your mind is pretty set on this issue.
The Catholic church’s teachings on predestination are available to any Catholic interested in learning about it.God Bless,
Michael
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