How Do I Know I am One of The Elect?

[Ilroy]

Look again at the post I was responding to: You might do the same thing.

Read carefully, and you’ll see what I’m saying. The poster says, “If you remain in a state of grace, if you avail yourself of the sacraments”. The emphasis is entirely on what the person does, and not on the grace of God. This is what I was taught as a Catholic, and this is what most of the Catholics I know were taught. It is a dangerous teaching that neither I nor the Catholic church agrees with.

You are completely misinterpreting what is meant by the poster. What is meant by you staying in the state of grace and availing yourself of the sacraments is simply accepting the free gift of Grace given by God AND using that gift rather than just sitting there having it. We must cooperate with the grace God gives us and not just presume on it. Faith is also a work of the intellect and is a cooperation in the Grace we are given…as are the other works God has set for us.
Because you misunderstood Catholic teaching during your time in The Church, you shouldn’t sit there claiming that the actual teaching is different from the official teaching.

 

[Teflon93]

You are completely misinterpreting what is meant by the poster. What is meant by you staying in the state of grace and availing yourself of the sacraments is simply accepting the free gift of Grace given by God AND using that gift rather than just sitting there having it. We must cooperate with the grace God gives us and not just presume on it. Faith is also a work of the intellect and is a cooperation in the Grace we are given…as are the other works God has set for us.
Because you misunderstood Catholic teaching during your time in The Church, you shouldn’t sit there claiming that the actual teaching is different from the official teaching.

As our visiting priest put it (imitating John the Baptist, I think)—“You are the body of Christ. Act like it!”

 

[VociMike]

Not utterly - you can stumble. The elect WILL be saved and you cannot refute this.

But it’s irrelevant because nobody can know with certainty that they are one of the elect. Too many people have at one time been certain they were one of the elect only to turn away later in life.

This obsession with saying “I am saved, no ifs, ands or buts about it!” is nothing but a dangerous distraction from a true Christian life.

 

[ChristianVet]

Read carefully, and you’ll see what I’m saying. The poster says, “If you remain in a state of grace, if you avail yourself of the sacraments”. The emphasis is entirely on what the person does, and not on the grace of God. This is what I was taught as a Catholic, and this is what most of the Catholics I know were taught. It is a dangerous teaching that neither I nor the Catholic church agrees with.

God’s grace is always available to us, but we do not always co-operate with that grace, and therefore we can fall out of a state of grace.

If we continually choose NOT to co-operate with God’s grace, we could very well lose our salvation.

This is what Free Will is all about. We can say yes to the grace available to us, And we can say no.

I like the way one parish priest illustrated to our youth group back in the 70s. God’s grace, by the power of the Holy Spirit, is available to us to grow in the Christian life. If we say yes to it, many more graces become available, if we say no (continue in our sinful ways), the Holy Spirit’s voice in our lives begins to fade, until it is hardly audible at all.

Repentance changes everything – but sometimes its a long road back.

As Scripture says, “Seek the Lord while He may be found.”

 

[mikeledes]

If by elect we mean those predestined to glory, then they will not lose their salvation. The number of those predestined to glory is immutably fixed. That’s Catholic teaching.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[Ilroy]

He was widely read, because so many agreed

Yet it remains, even if everyone believed that which is NOT the truth, it still remains NOT the truth. If noone believes the TRUTH, it still remains the TRUTH.
No matter how many agreed, it still remains quite errant.

 

[Linkowski]

His commandments must be an intimate part of it, He said if you keep His commandments you love Him, if you love Him you abide in Him and He in you. If you do not abide in Him you wither and are cast into the furnace to burn.

Your idea on the face of it - what you’ve written above - denies any obligation to keep His commandments.

It is one thing to keep the commandment because you are saved and another thing to keep them to be saved. It is the difference between heaven and hell.

 

[Linkowski]

Why can it not be refuted? Because you assert it with passion?

There’s a really big problem with this whole eternal security/Calvinist election thing. It doesn’t conform to the Bible.

Revelation 3:5 He who conquers shall be clad thus in white garments, and I will not blot his name out of the book of life; I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels.

In order to have your name blotted out it would have to be in there to begin with.

The elect are presented in the Bible as infallibly saved. One of the bext texts to cite is this…

Romans 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

The Golden Chain of Salvation!

 

[Teflon93]

It is one thing to keep the commandment because you are saved and another thing to keep them to be saved. It is the difference between heaven and hell.

The logic here is unclear to me.

Are you saying that someone who hypothetically keeps all the commandments perfectly because they seek salvation is damned?

Catholic teaching doesn’t seem to make any such claims. “Work out your salvation with fear and trembling”, you know.

Do you believe we Catholics are damned?

Or have I misunderstood your point?

 

[Linkowski]

You are completely misinterpreting what is meant by the poster. What is meant by you staying in the state of grace and availing yourself of the sacraments is simply accepting the free gift of Grace given by God AND using that gift rather than just sitting there having it. We must cooperate with the grace God gives us and not just presume on it. Faith is also a work of the intellect and is a cooperation in the Grace we are given…as are the other works God has set for us.
Because you misunderstood Catholic teaching during your time in The Church, you shouldn’t sit there claiming that the actual teaching is different from the official teaching.

The sacraments are an addition of ceremonial rituals to faith - works and are communicated as being necessary for salvation.

 

[Teflon93]

The elect are presented in the Bible as infallibly saved. One of the bext texts to cite is this…

Romans 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

The Golden Chain of Salvation!

Umm, so is not salvation having your name written in the book of life?

Why would Christ write it only to erase it if one could never lose it?

 

[Linkowski]

The logic here is unclear to me.

Are you saying that someone who hypothetically keeps all the commandments perfectly because they seek salvation is damned?

Catholic teaching doesn’t seem to make any such claims. “Work out your salvation with fear and trembling”, you know.

Do you believe we Catholics are damned?

Or have I misunderstood your point?

No - if you did keep them perfectly, you would be God. BUT - hypothically speaking yes. But why even consider this in our discussion.

You are not understanding what working out your own salvation with fear and trembling is. We are to pursue our sanctification in the fear of God. We ought not be arrogant and proud in our salvation but can have assurance at teh same time. Those who are truly saved will persevere in the faith and they will have a healthy fear of God.

Jeremiah 32:40 And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.

 

[Linkowski]

Umm, so is not salvation having your name written in the book of life?

Why would Christ write it only to erase it if one could never lose it?

We are warned of our names being erased (Rev 5) but it will not happen. The warnings in scripture are a means by which the elect will be kept by the power of God. God uses His word to save AND to keep.

Jeremiah 32:40 And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.

 

[Teflon93]

No - if you did keep them perfectly, you would be God. BUT - hypothically speaking yes. But why even consider this in our discussion.

You are not understanding what working out your own salvation with fear and trembling is. We are to pursue our sanctification in the fear of God. We ought not be arrogant and proud in our salvation but can have assurance at teh same time. Those who are truly saved will persevere in the faith and they will have a healthy fear of God.

Jeremiah 32:40 And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.

Thank you for clarifying.

Why in your view does Christ in Matthew 19:17 urge the young man to keep the commandments?

 

[Linkowski]

Thank you for clarifying.

Why in your view does Christ in Matthew 19:17 urge the young man to keep the commandments?

What is the first thing you present to someone when giving the gospel? The LAW. Why?

Romans 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Why seek a Savior if you do not know that you need one?

BUT - this man sought to justify himself, right? This is the response of most people to the law. They do not tremble at Mt. Sinai but they lift their heads high. So…Christ tested him…He said - okay let me see you in aciton. Give all your money away and follow me!! To this, the man proved his falling short of the glory of God and would not repent. If one is not willing to fall to Christ as Lord, there is no point in presenting Him as Savior.

 

[mikeledes]

We must, however, understand what “the Law” means. When Paul uses the phrase “The Law”, He is referring to the Law of Moses, the Old Covenant. We see this clearly in 1 Corinthians 9:20-21

**20To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law though not being myself under the Law, so that I might win those who are under the Law;
21to those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, so that I might win those who are without law. **

Christians are no longer under the Law of Moses, but under the Law of Christ. This law is love. Those who have been justified are under obligation to fulfill the moral demands of this law previously expressed in the Ten Commandments:

Romans 8:12-13

**12So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh–
13for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live. **

For we shall be judged by the Law of Christ:

James 2:12-13

12So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty.
13For judgment will be merciless to one who has shown no mercy; mercy triumphs over judgment.

And we see this judgment in action in Matthew 25.

Matthew 25:31-46

31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy[c] angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’ 37 “Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? 38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39 Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40 And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’
41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’
44 “Then they also will answer Him,[d] saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Those who do not fulfill the Law of Christ (i.e. love) will suffer eternal damnation. That’s why Christ Himself said:

Luke 10:25-28

25 And behold, a certain lawyer stood up and tested Him, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?”
26 He said to him, “What is written in the law? What is your reading of it?”
27 So he answered and said, “ ‘You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind,’ and ‘your neighbor as yourself.’”
28 And He said to him, “You have answered rightly; do this and you will live.”

God Bless,
Michael**

 

[Teflon93]

What is the first thing you present to someone when giving the gospel? The LAW. Why?

Romans 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Why seek a Savior if you do not know that you need one?

BUT - this man sought to justify himself, right? This is the response of most people to the law. They do not tremble at Mt. Sinai but they lift their heads high. So…Christ tested him…He said - okay let me see you in aciton. Give all your money away and follow me!! To this, the man proved his falling short of the glory of God and would not repent. If one is not willing to fall to Christ as Lord, there is no point in presenting Him as Savior.

Okay, I see your line of reasoning, but didn’t Christ preface the latter by saying “But, if you would be perfect…”

Do you think that “If you would have eternal life, keep the commandments” was simply a test, not something Christ meant?

I certainly take your point that the young man would not have come to Christ had he not a yearning for God.

And are we ever told whether or not the young man did as Christ bid him do to be perfect?

 

[Mike_Brick]

You sound like me! BUT…so many people pass up faith and merely work…

Link, how do you know that, are you their judge; do you know their hearts? Also remember you will be judged with the same judgement you use on others.

Peace

 

[mikeledes]

One sure sign that one is of the elect (i.e. predestined to glory) is that one perseveres to the end. The problem with that is that we can only infallibly know that we are of the elect after the end has come. Anyone can easily deceive themselves into believing they are of the elect. The Calvinist Harold Camping and his followers believe they are of the elect and seem to live lives that give evidence of that. And yet many other Calvinists consider him and his followers heretics. There are OSAS Arminian Protestants that affirm faith in Jesus and live holy lives and yet many Calvinists would consider them heretics because they believe in free will.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

Perseverance is both a condition of salvation and a evidence of election. The Bible clearly states:

Matthew 10:22

But he who endures to the end will be saved.

Notice that it does not say that he who endures to the end has been saved (i.e. past tense). It says he who endures to the end will be saved (i.e. future tense). There are other verses that talk about the necessity of perseverance:

Revelation 2:10

**Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life. **

2 Timothy 2:12

12 If we endure,
We shall also reign with Him.
If we deny Him,
He also will deny us.

That last part of the verse reiterates what is found in Matthew 10:32

32 “Therefore whoever confesses Me before men, him I will also confess before My Father who is in heaven. 33 But whoever denies Me before men, him I will also deny before My Father who is in heaven.

Perseverance, however, does not mean perseverance in faith alone. It means perseverance in faith and love and the visible expression of this is righteous conduct:

Revelation 2:26

**26 And he who overcomes, and keeps My works until the end, to him I will give power over the nations— **

Romans 2:6-7

6who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:
7to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;

Galatians 6:7-9

7Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap.
8For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
9Let us not lose heart in doing good, for in due time we will reap if we do not grow weary.

Only those who do not grow weary (i.e. persevere) in having faith and love that expresses itself in righteous conduct (i.e. doing good) will be glorified, the full realization of that eternal life promised by God. That is why Jesus Himself said:

John 5:28-29

**28"Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
29and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment. **

The difference between the works of the Law of Moses and the works of Law of Christ is that the latter are rooted in a faith that works through love. Those who tried to be justified by the Mosaic Law placed their trust in their observance of the mere precepts of the law. In other words, the external. Those who observe the Law of Christ have placed their trust in God’s mercy and, in turn, carry out His commands. However, only those who persevere in a faith working through love that results in a righteous life will be glorified. Those who persevere to the end are predestined to glory. Those who fail to persevere and thus fall from grace were genuinely justified, but were not predestined to glory.

God Bless,
Michael