How Do I Know I am One of The Elect?

[Church_Militant]

The elect are presented in the Bible as infallibly saved. One of the bext texts to cite is this…

Romans 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

The Golden Chain of Salvation!

According to you Craig…but the fact is that BK’s citation of Revelation 3:5 blows your whole theology right out the airlock. If one can be blotted out of the Book of Life, and being one of the “elect” means your name is written in that book and then Our Lord Himself says that he can blot out names from it then it seems to me that your “Golden Chain of Salvation” is more like man made costume jewelry, and those who spend so much time concerning themselves with something like this…that in reality is something that only God Himself can truly know, are wasting time that should be better spent on spreading the Gospel and praying for conversions.

After all, the Word of God does say: John 12:32 and I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself.

and

1st Timothy 2:1 First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, 2 for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way. 3 This is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

 

[mikeledes]

Now are there genuinely righteous people who do not persevere? Yes there are and the Bible talks about them:

We find a clear example in the Book of Ezekiel. In the Book of Ezekiel, the phrase “He shall surely live” is used to express Divine approval. It is either used as an divine affirmation/confirmation of someone being rigteous before God (i.e.justified).

Ezekiel 18:5-9

5**“But if a man is righteous and practices justice and righteousness,
6and does not eat at the mountain shrines or lift up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, or defile his neighbor’s wife or approach a woman during her menstrual period–
7if a man does not oppress anyone, but restores to the debtor his pledge, (does not commit robbery, but gives his bread to the hungry and covers the naked with clothing,
8if he does not lend money on interest or take increase, if he keeps his hand from iniquity and executes true justice between man and man,
9if he walks in My statutes and My ordinances so as to deal faithfully–he is righteous and will surely live,” declares the Lord GOD. **

Or it is used as a declaration of forgiveness:

Ezekiel 18:21

**21"But if the wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed and observes all My statutes and practices justice and righteousness, he shall surely live; he shall not die. **

God will never give His approval to a person who has not repented of his wickedness or is not genuinely righteous before His sight. If He says to someone “You shall surely live”, he is giving His seal of approval and saying that that person is righteous in His sight. He will never give His approval to the wicked if they have not repented:

Exodus 34:6-7

6 And the LORD passed before him and proclaimed, “The LORD, the LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abounding in goodness and truth, 7 keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, by no means clearing the guilty,

Exodus 23:7

7 Keep yourself far from a false matter; do not kill the innocent and righteous. For I will not justify the wicked.

And if a person is righteous, it is because God has justified him, He made him righteous. there is no other way a person can be righteous in His sight. Therefore, when we have a verse like;

Ezekiel 33:13

**13"When I say to the righteous he will surely live, and he so trusts in his righteousness that he commits iniquity, none of his righteous deeds will be remembered;but in that same iniquity of his which he has committed he will die. **

God has given these people his seal of approval (he shall surely live) and thus they cannot be anything but genuinely righteous for God will not clear or approve the wicked. Remember, God only uses “He shall surely live” when he is affirming somone is genuinely righteous or forgiving a repentant sinner. Therefore, the subject in Ezekiel 33:13 is a genuinely righteous person before God’s sight. This person took for granted this divine approval and figured that his righteous acts would be enough to cover his future sins. Wrong! This verse is also remarkably similar to:

1 Corinthians 10:12

**12Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed that he does not fall. **

And also Romans 11:20-22

**20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith Do not be conceited, but fear;
21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. **

We know what will happen to those who become conceited:

1 Timothy 3:6

**6and not a new convert, so that he will not become conceited and fall into the condemnation incurred by the devil. **

The righteous of the Old and New Testaments became righteous the same way. There is no difference, as demonstrated by Hebrews 11. The fact that this person dies in his sin (i.e. but in that iniquity of his which he has commited he will die), means that he did not persevere to the end. And yet he was genuinely justified? The fact that he has divine approval and was called righteous by God shows that he was justified. Thus demonstrating that not all of the justified will persevere and not all of the justified are counted among those predestined to glory.

I have discussed this in greater detail - with New Testament examples - in the following thread, but it has largely been ignored:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=163236&page=11

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

We are warned of our names being erased (Rev 5) but it will not happen. The warnings in scripture are a means by which the elect will be kept by the power of God. God uses His word to save AND to keep.

Jeremiah 32:40 And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.

Yes, those who have been predestined to glory will not permanently depart from God. They will be given what Catholics call the gift of final persverance. However, not all of the justified are predestined to glory.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[djrakowski]

We are warned of our names being erased (Rev 5) but it will not happen. The warnings in scripture are a means by which the elect will be kept by the power of God. God uses His word to save AND to keep.

In other words, scripture doesn’t mean what it says? God is just holding this so-called warning over our heads, even though he doesn’t mean to follow through on it?

If it were as you’ve explained it, then why would God need to issue this ‘warning?’ Please elaborate on this idea that ‘the warnings in scripture are a means by which the elect will be kept by the power of God.’ If predestination and election are as you’ve described, then why does God need to use ‘warnings’ to ‘keep’ the elect?

 

[mikeledes]

In other words, scripture doesn’t mean what it says? God is just holding this so-called warning over our heads, even though he doesn’t mean to follow through on it?

If it were as you’ve explained it, then why would God need to issue this ‘warning?’ Please elaborate on this idea that ‘the warnings in scripture are a means by which the elect will be kept by the power of God.’ If predestination and election are as you’ve described, then why does God need to use ‘warnings’ to ‘keep’ the elect?

God does not give empty warnings. His warnings are fulfilled in those among the justified who fail to persevere. If this group did not exist, God would not mean what He says.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[VociMike]

In other words, scripture doesn’t mean what it says? God is just holding this so-called warning over our heads, even though he doesn’t mean to follow through on it?

If it were as you’ve explained it, then why would God need to issue this ‘warning?’ Please elaborate on this idea that ‘the warnings in scripture are a means by which the elect will be kept by the power of God.’ If predestination and election are as you’ve described, then why does God need to use ‘warnings’ to ‘keep’ the elect?

Brilliant point. It is one thing to preach the gospel to all so that the elect will hear it. It is quite another to issue all these warnings, since the elect who hear them will not need them, and nobody else who hears them will be saved anyway.

 

[Teflon93]

Brilliant point. It is one thing to preach the gospel to all so that the elect will hear it. It is quite another to issue all these warnings, since the elect who hear them will not need them, and nobody else who hears them will be saved anyway.

That’s precisely why I think Matthew 19:17 is so devastating to Calvinism, on two fronts:

1. Christ urges the young man to “keep the commandments”, not “believe in me” nor some other reformulation of “keep the faith”.
2. If the young man were of the Elect, Christ’s advice to him was unnecessary (if not injurious, given Luther’s views—sin boldly, etc); if he was not of the Elect, Christ lied to him since nothing he could do would ever procure salvation for him.

Linkowski’s take—one of testing—is an interesting one; but unconvincing given that Christ prefaces the "test’ portion with “But if you would be perfect…” after ensuring keeping the Commandments was sufficient for eternal life. (I do note that Linkowski is on stronger grounds when he notes that the young man could not keep the Commandments perfectly, not being God; I personally believe the Commandments were not given to Man in anticipation we would fail to meet them, but in the expectation that we ought to. But that’s the empty heaven debate).

 

[Teflon93]

I have discussed this in greater detail - with New Testament examples - in the following thread, but it has largely been ignored:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=163236&page=11

God Bless,
Michael

This is a lot to chew on. It seems very well-reasoned to me.

 

[Ilroy]

The sacraments are an addition of ceremonial rituals to faith - works and are communicated as being necessary for salvation.

And who added the sacraments??? Well, none other than Jesus Christ Himself. I for one will NOT argue with HIM.
And, they are actually communicated as being the means of additional Grace given us by God and not mere rituals. You can go to scborromeo.org/ccc/index/s.htm and find what the Church established by Christ truly teaches on the sacraments.

 

[djrakowski]

God does not give empty warnings. His warnings are fulfilled in those among the justified who fail to persevere. If this group did not exist, God would not mean what He says.

Exactly what I was thinking, Michael (thanks to you for sparking an awareness in me that I need to learn more about the Church’s teachings on predestination).

If there’s no fulfillment of these warnings (which is how I read the post of Linkowski’s to which I was responding), then what other scripture can we throw out as practically meaningless? There are many such warnings all throughout the New Testament, some issued from the lips of Jesus Himself. Linkowski quoted yet another warning in that post. I suppose we’re to question whether that warning has any fulfillment, too. If this isn’t speaking of those elected to perseverance, then the only logical alternative is that they will be fulfilled in the justified non-elect.

Brilliant point. It is one thing to preach the gospel to all so that the elect will hear it. It is quite another to issue all these warnings, since the elect who hear them will not need them, and nobody else who hears them will be saved anyway.

Thanks, Mike - however, I am unworthy of praise. All honor and glory to God!

 

[Mike_Brick]

The sacraments are an addition of ceremonial rituals to faith - works and are communicated as being necessary for salvation.

Link, my buddy, your last two posts were simplistic calvinistic talking points provided to you so you can argue with Catholics. But you have been around the forum long enough to have learned basic Catholic teaching as taught by the Catholic Church, not so called catholic teaching you have been provided with by anti-catholics. I’ll say this once more, the Catholic Church teaches, and Catholics who know their faith know no one “works their way to heaven”, without a personal faith in God through Jesus, and by now you should know that. You keep repeating your talking points as if one time some Catholic will say “that’s what I was taught”, you can conclude it must be CC doctrine. Even if that person believed they did not need faith, just works, it’s not Church Doctrine and even if thousands of Catholics wrongly believe they do not need faith, it would still NOT be CC doctrine. We don’t vote on doctrine, and it doesn’t change with the latest polls.

But we love you for being so passionate, and now we both know CC teaching on works! By the way, did you answer the question recently put to you in this thread, “Are you sure you are one of the elect”?

Peace

 

[Linkowski]

Exactly what I was thinking, Michael (thanks to you for sparking an awareness in me that I need to learn more about the Church’s teachings on predestination).

If there’s no fulfillment of these warnings (which is how I read the post of Linkowski’s to which I was responding), then what other scripture can we throw out as practically meaningless? There are many such warnings all throughout the New Testament, some issued from the lips of Jesus Himself. Linkowski quoted yet another warning in that post. I suppose we’re to question whether that warning has any fulfillment, too. If this isn’t speaking of those elected to perseverance, then the only logical alternative is that they will be fulfilled in the justified non-elect.
Thanks, Mike - however, I am unworthy of praise. All honor and glory to God!

If a warning is designed to be meaningless - you have a problem. We have been through this before.

Look in Acts 27

A group of people including Paul are on a ship and in trouble…Here is what Paul says has been God’s decree…

Acts 27:21-25 KJV 21 But after long abstinence Paul stood forth in the midst of them, and said, Sirs, ye should have hearkened unto me, and not have loosed from Crete, and to have gained this harm and loss. 22 And now I exhort you to be of good cheer: for there shall be no loss of any man’s life among you, but of the ship. 23 For there stood by me this night the angel of God, whose I am, and whom I serve, 24 Saying, Fear not, Paul; thou must be brought before Caesar: and, lo, God hath given thee all them that sail with thee. 25 Wherefore, sirs, be of good cheer: for I believe God, that it shall be even as it was told me.

That is like the decree in 1 John 5:4 - You will be saved - I promise you…God is sovereign and has predestined this to occur. So, does that mean everyone just sits back and lets God do everything?? No, look what then happens…

Acts 27:30-31 KJV 30 And as the shipmen were about to flee out of the ship, when they had let down the boat into the sea, under colour as though they would have cast anchors out of the foreship, 31 Paul said to the centurion and to the soldiers, Except these abide in the ship, ye cannot be saved.

God’s sovereignty and man’s responsibility working together - and God ordains both…predestines both. At this point you could also consider the prophecies of God…look how all of the circumstances worked together for Mary and Joseph to return to Bethlehem. It seems God works it out without us feeling as though our free will is violated. For the Christian though, I long for my will to be aligned with His will.

**God’s will was going to be done - PERIOD **- WITH THE WARNING BEING NECESSARY. Not that his sovereign will would not come to pass…but to make it sure. THIS IS THE DESIGN OF THESE SCRIPTURES THAT YOU SO LOVE.
Get it through your head Rakowski…the elect will NOT perish

 

[Linkowski]

Link, my buddy, your last two posts were simplistic calvinistic talking points provided to you so you can argue with Catholics. But you have been around the forum long enough to have learned basic Catholic teaching as taught by the Catholic Church, not so called catholic teaching you have been provided with by anti-catholics. I’ll say this once more, the Catholic Church teaches, and Catholics who know their faith know no one “works their way to heaven”, without a personal faith in God through Jesus, and by now you should know that. You keep repeating your talking points as if one time some Catholic will say “that’s what I was taught”, you can conclude it must be CC doctrine. Even if that person believed they did not need faith, just works, it’s not Church Doctrine and even if thousands of Catholics wrongly believe they do not need faith, it would still NOT be CC doctrine. We don’t vote on doctrine, and it doesn’t change with the latest polls.

But we love you for being so passionate, and now we both know CC teaching on works! By the way, did you answer the question recently put to you in this thread, “Are you sure you are one of the elect”?

Peace

I always say - if only we could get together in a room. Much would be accomplished.

 

[Jerry-Jet]

Catholics have always known that the Elect are not lost–so what?

That being a fact has absolutly no effect on anyone’s life and no effect on the command in the Inerrant word of God to “work out our salvation with fear and trembling”.

If you aren’t doing that you are disobeying God.

It’s that simple!

Anyone who disobeys God until death and knows better dies in mortal sin and spends eternity in Hell!

So if one knows better and wants to go to Hell they could follow John Calvin.

If they want to go to Heaven they should follow the command of the Holy Spirit written down inerrantly by St. Paul who was thoroughly Catholic!

If St. Paul heard the Calvinist hymn “Blessed Assurance” he might puke!

 

[Church_Militant]

**God’s will was going to be done - PERIOD **

• WITH THE WARNING BEING NECESSARY. Not that his sovereign will would not come to pass…but to make it sure. THIS IS THE DESIGN OF THESE SCRIPTURES THAT YOU SO LOVE.
  Get it through your head Rakowski…the elect will NOT perishKeep saying it over and over again… “There’s no place like home…There’s no place like home…There’s no place like home…”

I have no doubt that the elect will not perish…yet the problem remains, “How Do I Know I am One of The Elect?”. You seem to think that it comes of your constant protestations that you are one of the elect.

It seems that I would have to agree with Shakespeare when he said, thou “doth protest too much, methinks”.

 

[Linkowski]

Keep saying it over and over again… “There’s no place like home…There’s no place like home…There’s no place like home…”

I have no doubt that the elect will not perish…yet the problem remains, “How Do I Know I am One of The Elect?”. You seem to think that it comes of your constant protestations that you are one of the elect.

It seems that I would have to agree with Shakespeare when he said, thou “doth protest too much, methinks”.

I do not hear you, Mr. Militant…

Jeremiah 32:40 And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.

What does it say??? THEY SHALL NOT DEPART!!! How does God do this???

How is one saved…by the Spirit - by the Word…

1 Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

James 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

The Word is God-breathed through the Spirit and just as Adam received life when God breathed into Him, the same for the Christian…

2 Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is God-breathed, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,

And God also uses His Spirit and the word to save the elect…that INCLUDES warnings. The elect WILL follow the warnings.

Mikeledes has indicated that the CC indeed teaches that the elect will be infallibly saved…BUT…He has also indicated that a non-elect person can be saved/justified but then WILL lose their salvation. This cannot be proven in scripture. There is only such thing as the elect group of Christians…all others will be rooted up…

Matthew 15:13 But He answered and said, Every plant which My heavenly Father has not planted shall be rooted up.

By the way - I TOLD YOU SO…

ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED!!! THE ELECT ARE SAVED FOREVER!!!

 

[OneForTruth]

Linkowski:

By the way - I TOLD YOU SO…

ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED!!! THE ELECT ARE SAVED FOREVER!!!

Romans 8:33 Who will bring a charge against God’s elect? God is the one who justifies;

 

[paarsurrey]

How Do I Know I am One of The Elect?

Hi
I understand from “the Elect”, that it denotes ProphetMessenger, ChosenOne of GodAllahYHWH.
Do you mean that from"One of The Elect"? Please clarify.
Thanks

 

[OneForTruth]

Hi
I understand from “the Elect”, that it denotes ProphetMessenger, ChosenOne of GodAllahYHWH.
Do you mean that from"One of The Elect"? Please clarify.
Thanks

No - these ones…Christians:

1 Peter 5:13 The church that is at Babylon, elected together with you, saluteth you; and so doth Marcus my son.

Colossians 3:12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;

Romans 8:28-33 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. 29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. 31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? 32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things? 33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God’s elect? It is God that justifieth.

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

Linkowski:

By the way - I TOLD YOU SO…

ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED!!! THE ELECT ARE SAVED FOREVER!!!

Linkowski, we hear you! Don’t worry, we aren’t deaf. You don’t need to shout! It’s not that we don’t hear but that we don’t agree. You aren’t going to make us agree in OSAS by shouting but by reasoning (which will thus probably never happen).

In Christ,
~G