L
Linkowski
Guest
The elect did not choose to be elect - read Romans 9 prayerfully and carefully.
- Status
L
Linkowski
Guest
OK…the elect will not perish…thank you. And once that they are saved - they are saved. OSAS!!
BUT…why the warning then? In my posting using Acts 27 as an example…were the people going to perish…God said that they would not. BUT…the warning was necessary or the sailors would not have stayed on the boat. The warnings are meant for the keeping of the elect who will, in fact, heed those warnings.
Jer 32:40 "I will make an everlasting covenant with them that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; and I will put the fear of Me in their hearts so that they will not turn away from Me.
L
Linkowski
Guest
I did not hear you, Mr. Militant.
L
Linkowski
Guest
They are not Christians…they are only tasting and experiencing but have no salvation.
John 6:44 "**No one can come to Me **unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and **I will raise him up **on the last day.
L
Linkowski
Guest
Unfortnately, I cannot answer every post. However, what you will not present are your scriptures alongside mine and allow them to complement eachother.It cannot be proven from Scripture? I have presented numerous verses that contradict the Calvinist notion of the perseverance of the saints. I have written a whole series of posts in another thread and they have gone unanswered. I hope you and any other Calvinist will take the time to prayerfully read them.
God Bless,
Michael
D
djrakowski
Guest
Craig,Talk to Him about this type of approach. I am not applying this text to you but only using it as an example. Hard heads require sharper instruments used with higher power.
If I properly understand your definition of election and predestination, then you should need no instruments (sharp, dull or in-between) to reach me.
If I’m of the elect, predestined to receive grace - unmerited favor - and thus enter heaven for all eternity at the close of my life, then you needn’t preach to me, because my salvation is secure regardless of the influence of a preacher, evangelist or apologist.
Conversely, if I’m not of the elect, then no preaching could possibly change my mind, right? So that would mean that, according to your understanding of how this all works, you’re wasting your breath either way.
Dan
L
Linkowski
Guest
This is merely outward righteousness…you cannot say that they were right with God from a justification standpoint.
B
Baraq
Guest
18:24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, [and] doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked [man] doeth, shall he live? All his g righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.
(g) That is, the false opinion that the hypocrites have of their righteousness. (NGeneva Study Bible)
D
djrakowski
Guest
That interpretation, quite frankly, is a load of nonsense. Those who would obey without warnings don’t need the warnings, do they?
If those of the elect are of the elect, then that’s it - it’s a done deal, with no warnings necessary. I believe this. However, warnings must have a practical application, or else they’re just useless words, and could easily cast doubt on which scriptures carry weight and which can be discarded as practically meaningless.
T
Teflon93
Guest
The whole in your logic is so large as to beg whether you intend to mislead.
- The Elect are those who will persevere in righteousness to the end of their lives or the end of the world.
- The Elect will not perish at the end of their lives or the end of the world.
What you fail to note, despite the fact that the point has been put to you many times, is that “The Elect” and “Those Who Think They Are the Elect” are not synonymous, nor is “The Elect” in this context “all who are baptized” or “all who receive any amount of grace” or “those to whom God calls”.
The Elect in the Catholic view are those who persevere through sanctifying grace.
It is as though you were talking about the Super Bowl champion and claiming that because they are predestined to win that everyone on the roster will make it to the big game or that the team will go undefeated.
Not to mention the problem that getting to the Super Bowl necessarily involves each member of the team utilizing their God-given talents to their full ability, and making the decision to do so.
Not everyone will be a Super Bowl winner. That is not because God is an Indianapolis Colts fan.
L
Linkowski
Guest
God uses the means of a preacher being sent to preach the gospel to that they might hear and believe and call…don’t presume a fatalistic mentality over this issue. Otherwise, let’s all go home…
Romans 10:13 for “WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.”
14 How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher?
15 How will they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, “HOW BEAUTIFUL ARE THE FEET OF THOSE WHO BRING GOOD NEWS OF GOOD THINGS!”
16 However, they did not all heed the good news; for Isaiah says, “LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT?”
17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.
L
Linkowski
Guest
Why do you all ignore that I have indicated that God ordains not only the end but the means of our salvation as well?? Those who have no evidence that they are children of God can have no assurance of salvation. He does all of this without violating our free will - but by effectual drawing.
Nobody said, either, that the gathering up of the elect is a piece of cake either. When they elect fall, there has to be someone there to pick them up…it may require the gospel being heard on several occasions before the ground of the heart is prepared properly. You are having wrong presumptions about the gathering up of the elect. It takes work - human means - ALL ORDAINED OF GOD.
Nobody said, either, that the gathering up of the elect is a piece of cake either. When they elect fall, there has to be someone there to pick them up…it may require the gospel being heard on several occasions before the ground of the heart is prepared properly. You are having wrong presumptions about the gathering up of the elect. It takes work - human means - ALL ORDAINED OF GOD.
L
Linkowski
Guest
How is it that you do not understand this…if one is elect they will persevere. That is absolute. So, how can you not see that once saved always saved is the truth…
Joh 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
Joh 10:27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
The issue of knowing whether or not you are being saved is something separate.
Joh 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
Joh 10:27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
The issue of knowing whether or not you are being saved is something separate.
T
Teflon93
Guest
And all those who firmly believe to be among the Elect and fall away? Are you saying they had no evidence? They had the same access to Scripture you and I do, and many of them were far more expert in it.
I give you Bart D. Ehrman, former fundamentalist, now Christian debunker. He knows Scripture better than I do, certainly. He believed firmly he was one of the Elect, until he came to the conclusion that sola scriptura was not true and went off into damnation as a result.
This is what happens when an ecclesiastical community purports to possessing the truth and gets caught lying.
As to the efficacy of the apostate engine that is Calvinism, it surely doesn’t seem Christ-inspired to me.
D
djrakowski
Guest
I haven’t seen much evidence of my fellow Catholics disputing this point, Craig, so I’m not sure what you’re arguing against?
Sure, ‘once-saved-always-saved’ for the elect. However, unless you’ve persevered to the end, how can you be sure that you’re of the elect? How do you know you’re not going to fall away?
I can’t understand how you can separate these concepts. How does one become saved - does it have something to do with our response to grace, or does free will have nothing at all to do with it?
D
djrakowski
Guest
Precisely my point, Teflon! There are many, many righteous people throughout the centuries who at one time firmly believed they were of the elect, and even bore fruit as evidence, only to fall away later. Clearly, such people weren’t of the elect, but believed as firmly as you do now that they were at some point in their lives.
How do you know you’re not such a person?
L
Linkowski
Guest
How long can one fall away for??? Do you not think that a fall can last a longer period of time…repentance then can come months/years later. People that I have seen that completely fall away - they say things that are unbelievable to my ears. What I come to find out is that they were really wondering “What’s in it for me”. This tells me that they were deceiving themselves.
1Jo 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us.
1Jo 3:6 No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him.
2Jo 1:9 Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God; the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son.
Lu 8:18 “So take care how you listen; for whoever has, to him more shall be given; and whoever does not have, even **what he **thinks he has shall be taken away from him.”
D
djrakowski
Guest
Craig,
Could this scripture ever apply to you? Could what you think you have be taken away from you?
Dan
L
Linkowski
Guest
I examine myself regularly…am making certain of my calling and election…
2Pe 1:10 Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble;
Heb 3:12 Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God.
2Co 13:5 Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you–unless indeed you fail the test?
God is keeping me through the power of the Spirit and by these words of His. But…if I am one of the elect, then I will be saved forever…TRUE OR NOT TRUE, DAN?? This does not keep me from working out my salvation with fear and trembling.
Have you ever received divine chastisement??
Heb 12:6 FOR THOSE WHOM THE LORD LOVES HE DISCIPLINES, AND HE SCOURGES EVERY SON WHOM HE RECEIVES."
7 It is for discipline that you endure; God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom his father does not discipline?
8 But if you are without discipline, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate children and not sons.
9 Furthermore, we had earthly fathers to discipline us, and we respected them; shall we not much rather be subject to the Father of spirits, and live?
I know I have!
D
djrakowski
Guest
Craig,
You’re speaking of your present condition in relation to Christ. What of your future condition?
Catholics also regularly examine themselves, most importantly in sacramental confession (which I did on Sunday, and received some rather wise counsel in how to overcome a persistent weakness).
I know of very few serious Christians, Catholic or otherwise, that aren’t aware of having undergone some divine chastisement at one point or another.
But none of this addresses my question. You are certain of your status with God at this point in time - good! How do you know you will continue in that state until death?
Dan
- Status