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Josie_in_the_East
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…continued from above…
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K
Kei
Guest
I truly do not see how Jesus’ own apostles could be so mistaken as to believe in the Resurrection to the point they were willing to die for it if instead, Jesus simply ascended to Heaven.
Indeed, the ideas of Islam is almost antithetical to the Christian value placed upon the Crucifixion. Muslims may say, “Why would God have caused suffering to one so Holy?”
But the Christian faith is completely opposite on this, understanding the necessity of suffering/understanding the love of God.
Let me ask you, say someone is a Muslim. He accepts that Jesus Christ is the Messiah. Now, the question is: what about Him? What do they know about Jesus Christ? What of His Teachings? Of His Person? Will they just say, “He was a Muslim who taught one God”? The Jews already believed in One God. “He taught the Law”? What about the Law did He teach?
Islam has no succession from the Church, like how Catholicism is traceable back to the apostles of Jesus. Indeed, it is separated by hundreds of years from the events of Jesus’ earthly life.
If Mohammed taught wrongly yet authoritatively, would then this be enough?
If we look to the Hadith it is clear he is a false prophet.
He indeed when asked said which parent one looks like depends on who (family forum)s first. This claim we know to be wrong.
Or if he prophecied and taught polytheism only to detract it, he would be shown to be false.
The only issue is that some of the bad hadith is said to be weak in history.
But even looking at the Sahih hadith can show some very odd things pertaining to Mohammed.
I personally believe Mohammed got revelations from someone, I just don’t think it was from God or a good angel.
I don’t know what branch if Islam you are used to, but worse to me is when Mohammed is called the light and such.
Indeed, the ideas of Islam is almost antithetical to the Christian value placed upon the Crucifixion. Muslims may say, “Why would God have caused suffering to one so Holy?”
But the Christian faith is completely opposite on this, understanding the necessity of suffering/understanding the love of God.
Let me ask you, say someone is a Muslim. He accepts that Jesus Christ is the Messiah. Now, the question is: what about Him? What do they know about Jesus Christ? What of His Teachings? Of His Person? Will they just say, “He was a Muslim who taught one God”? The Jews already believed in One God. “He taught the Law”? What about the Law did He teach?
Islam has no succession from the Church, like how Catholicism is traceable back to the apostles of Jesus. Indeed, it is separated by hundreds of years from the events of Jesus’ earthly life.
If Mohammed taught wrongly yet authoritatively, would then this be enough?
If we look to the Hadith it is clear he is a false prophet.
He indeed when asked said which parent one looks like depends on who (family forum)s first. This claim we know to be wrong.
Or if he prophecied and taught polytheism only to detract it, he would be shown to be false.
The only issue is that some of the bad hadith is said to be weak in history.
But even looking at the Sahih hadith can show some very odd things pertaining to Mohammed.
I personally believe Mohammed got revelations from someone, I just don’t think it was from God or a good angel.
I don’t know what branch if Islam you are used to, but worse to me is when Mohammed is called the light and such.
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B
BlackFriar
Guest
What sort of “certainty” does faith give?
S
Sy_Noe
Guest
None other than in one’s mind. My point was no one can even think they know without faith. And then they can at best only believe or think they know. I’m not knocking faith though. Far from it. There’s nothing to lose if one’s faith turns out to be true. But rather much to gain if it does.What sort of “certainty” does faith give?
B
BlackFriar
Guest
I suppose faith gives a sort of knowledge…though I have never really felt that “certainty” is the same as that of “proof” or logic.“None other than in one’s mind. My point was no one can even think they know without faith”
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A
Arkansan
Guest
Catholicism is backed up by the testimony of 11 eyewitnesses to the Resurrection (the Apostles), who had no reason to falsely claim what they did, and every earthly motivation to deny that it happened.
Islam is backed up by the claims of a sexual deviant who got secular power and however many wives and sex slaves out of it.
Islam is backed up by the claims of a sexual deviant who got secular power and however many wives and sex slaves out of it.
J
Josie_in_the_East
Guest
Edit: post must be at least 16 characters
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adamhovey1988
Guest
It may not convince you, but it’s a place to start. John 14:6 RSVCE - Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and - Bible Gateway
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jfz178
Guest
It is a tough thing: There is no religion that can be proven empirically or through pure logic. It ultimately comes down to Faith. Faith can be informed by facts, but never fully justified by facts.
This idea that because the Apostles were willing to be martyrs for Him proves Jesus was God is a weak argument. Radical Muslims are willing to die for what they believe in. So are we justifying faiths based on body count?
We know that Jesus existed, he preached, He had a large following and He was crucified. Those are independently reported historical facts. The rest of what we believe about Him is not independently verifiable, but then a lot of what Muslims believe about Mohammed is not verifiable either.
I was given the gift of Faith by being born into the Church. I think it would be hard to start from scratch with religion. I would look at a preponderance of the following, knowing that none of these factors alone are sufficient:
This idea that because the Apostles were willing to be martyrs for Him proves Jesus was God is a weak argument. Radical Muslims are willing to die for what they believe in. So are we justifying faiths based on body count?
We know that Jesus existed, he preached, He had a large following and He was crucified. Those are independently reported historical facts. The rest of what we believe about Him is not independently verifiable, but then a lot of what Muslims believe about Mohammed is not verifiable either.
I was given the gift of Faith by being born into the Church. I think it would be hard to start from scratch with religion. I would look at a preponderance of the following, knowing that none of these factors alone are sufficient:
- Does the historical evidence and logic seem convincing, even if it is not solid verification?
- Does the religion and what it teaches make sense?
- What are the people like who lead that religion and follow that religion today? Do they seem more moral and holy than those in other religions?
- How many people in history have followed that religion? I figure there has to be some comfort in numbers.
- Does it seem like the religion can help me get closer to God?
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R
rossum
Guest
You are not the first person to ask this question. The Buddha was asked the same question:A couple of years ago I came to the conclusion that there must be a God. Since then I’ve looked into catholicism and Islam, and the only thing I can conclude is that I cannot possibly know which religion (Islam, christianity, judaism etc) is the right one.
I am looking for guidance or/and information, to help me find the way and not feel utterly lost anymore.
That is your question: which preachers are right and which are wrong?The Kalamas of Kesaputta asked the Buddha the Blessed One: “There are some monks and brahmans, venerable sir, who visit Kesaputta. They expound and explain only their own doctrines; the doctrines of others they despise, revile, and pull to pieces. Some other monks and brahmans too, venerable sir, come to Kesaputta. They also expound and explain only their own doctrines; the doctrines of others they despise, revile, and pull to pieces. Venerable sir, there is doubt, there is uncertainty in us concerning them. Which of these reverend monks and brahmans spoke the truth and which falsehood?”
The first part of the Buddha’s answer tells you what not to rely on:
All of those apply to every religion, so they are of little use in finding the right one.The Buddha said: “Do not go upon what has been acquired by repeated hearing; nor upon tradition; nor upon rumor; nor upon what is in a scripture; nor upon surmise; nor upon an axiom; nor upon specious reasoning; nor upon a bias towards a notion that has been pondered over; nor upon another’s seeming ability; nor upon the consideration, ‘The monk is our teacher’.”
The second part of his answer tells you how to find the right religion:
The heart of the answer is “when you yourselves know… undertaken and observed…” You have to try things and find what works best. As you have noticed, relying on what other people, or books, say does not give certainty because there are always other people and other books contradicting the first set. You have to try it for yourself to find out what works.The Buddha said: “Kalamas, when you yourselves know: ‘These things are bad; these things are blamable; these things are censured by the wise; undertaken and observed, these things lead to harm and ill,’ abandon them. … Kalamas, when you yourselves know: ‘These things are good; these things are not blamable; these things are praised by the wise; undertaken and observed, these things lead to benefit and happiness,’ enter on and abide in them.”
Source: Kalama sutta, Anguttara Nikaya, 3.65
HTH
rossum
G
guanophore
Guest
May I recommend beginning with the Gospel of John?So analysing which narrative of Jesus is more factually correct/likely is helpful.
T
Teek
Guest
I don’t know.I suppose faith gives a sort of knowledge…though I have never really felt that “certainty” is the same as that of “proof” or logic.
I don’t believe that Steven Hawking is right that the universe can create itself from nothing. Philosophically that is ridiculous. I can read the facts and figures and science and logic he uses and I can’t know it. It would be a huge act of faith, even though it is based on “proof” and logic.
I believe in dark matter. Somewhat. There is logic, but it could also be a mathematical god of the gaps. It is not provable, though. So I am not certain. I don’t have very strong belief.
I believe people have souls much more strongly. I would say it is an undeniable fact. I have absolute confidence in this. It is only philosophically provable. And there isn’t much logic to it, because the invisible soul is unique in the natural world.
I know my dad loved me. I can tell you stories all day long about it. You will believe me. You don’t know him, haven’t ever observed his love for me. I can’t prove it. But you’ll have faith in my stories.
I know God’s love like I know my dad’s. It is more undeniable than all of the above. I have had real and undeniable proof in my life that people would have to take my word for even more than my father’s love, because they can ask eye witnesses and become more certain about my dad and who he was.
You can know by faith.
And like my dad, if you want to see if it is correct, ask the eye witnesses. The apostles all died for love of Hesus, who is Truth. Jesus valued truth over deception so highly, that the apostles refused to lie about the resurrection and were killed for truth. Their belief in Jesus as, not just the Savior, but as God in the flesh is undeniable.
Islam claims that the prophet of God who values truth so highly that his closest friends would die to be loyal to truth deceived them, and allowed one of them to die in his place to save himself from death.
That would be the ultimate act of hypocrisy.
It is understandable, though, that Mohammad would be ok with a God who is a hypocrite, after you read the Quran and the Hadith.
When people challenge Mohammad because he breaks all of the sexual rules he has given everyone else, Allah answers that Mohammad can do it since he is the prophet.
There are also the Satanic verses in the Quran. Mohammad, after preaching only one God, teaches that this God had three daughters that can be worshipped. His followers rebuke him so he changes it back.
Within Islam there is a rule. The Law of Abrogation. When Mohammad is challenged because the Quran says one thing in one place and then later says the opposite, Allah says that he can do whatever he wants, and whatever comes after is at least as good as what comes before or better.
I have asked people who follow the Islamic faith how a God that is truth could be wrong or lie. They say he is not bound to any definition. He is all powerful, so he doesn’t even have to be rational or logical. And he doesn’t owe any explanation.
T
Teek
Guest
Hypocricy: Allah justifies Mohammad’s disobedience.
Quran 33:50
O Prophet! We have made lawful to thee thy wives to whom thou hast paid their dowers; and those whom thy right hand possesses out of the prisoners of war whom Allah has assigned to thee; and daughters of thy paternal uncles and aunts, and daughters of thy maternal uncles and aunts, who migrated (from Makka) with thee; and any believing woman who dedicates her soul to the Prophet if the Prophet wishes to wed her;- this only for thee, and not for the Believers (at large); We know what We have appointed for them as to their wives and the captives whom their right hands possess;- in order that there should be no difficulty for thee. And Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.
Satanic verses/polytheism endorsed/Quran revises:
This is more complicated to quote, because the Quran was changed when they decided that Mohammad had not been able to distinguish the voice of Allah from that of Satan. It is recorded in early Hadith (eyewitness accounts of Mohammad’s life). The link to these quotes is provided below.
The Life of Muhammad
“When the annulment of what Satan had put upon the prophet’s tongue came from God, Quraysh said: ‘Muhammad has repented of what he said about the position of your gods with Allah, altered it and brought something else.’ “
The original was this:
Now tell me about Al-Lat, Al-Uzza, and Manat, The third one, another goddess.
these are the exalted Gharaniq whose intercession is approved.
It was “abrogated” by Allah to this:
Quran 53:19-22
Now tell me about Al-Lat, Al-Uzza, and Manat, The third one, another goddess.
What! For you the males and for him the females! That indeed is an unfair division.
http://www.muhammadanism.org/Quran/SatanicVerses.htm
Law of Abrogation
If you read these in context in the Quran, they are responses to people getting concerned that Allah seems to have changed his mind.
Quran 2:106 “Whatever of Our revelations We repeal or cause to be forgotten, We will replace them with something superior or comparable. Do you not know that Allah has power over all things? Do you not know that Allah reigns sovereign over the heavens and earth and besides Him you have no protector or helper? Would you question your messenger as Moses was questioned in his time? Those who exchange their faith for disbelief have gone astray from the right path.”
Quran 16:101 “When We exchange one verse for another, and Allah knows best what He reveals, they say, ‘You are making this up.’ Most of them do not understand.”
Quran 33:50
O Prophet! We have made lawful to thee thy wives to whom thou hast paid their dowers; and those whom thy right hand possesses out of the prisoners of war whom Allah has assigned to thee; and daughters of thy paternal uncles and aunts, and daughters of thy maternal uncles and aunts, who migrated (from Makka) with thee; and any believing woman who dedicates her soul to the Prophet if the Prophet wishes to wed her;- this only for thee, and not for the Believers (at large); We know what We have appointed for them as to their wives and the captives whom their right hands possess;- in order that there should be no difficulty for thee. And Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.
Satanic verses/polytheism endorsed/Quran revises:
This is more complicated to quote, because the Quran was changed when they decided that Mohammad had not been able to distinguish the voice of Allah from that of Satan. It is recorded in early Hadith (eyewitness accounts of Mohammad’s life). The link to these quotes is provided below.
The Life of Muhammad
“When the annulment of what Satan had put upon the prophet’s tongue came from God, Quraysh said: ‘Muhammad has repented of what he said about the position of your gods with Allah, altered it and brought something else.’ “
The original was this:
Now tell me about Al-Lat, Al-Uzza, and Manat, The third one, another goddess.
these are the exalted Gharaniq whose intercession is approved.
It was “abrogated” by Allah to this:
Quran 53:19-22
Now tell me about Al-Lat, Al-Uzza, and Manat, The third one, another goddess.
What! For you the males and for him the females! That indeed is an unfair division.
http://www.muhammadanism.org/Quran/SatanicVerses.htm
Law of Abrogation
If you read these in context in the Quran, they are responses to people getting concerned that Allah seems to have changed his mind.
Quran 2:106 “Whatever of Our revelations We repeal or cause to be forgotten, We will replace them with something superior or comparable. Do you not know that Allah has power over all things? Do you not know that Allah reigns sovereign over the heavens and earth and besides Him you have no protector or helper? Would you question your messenger as Moses was questioned in his time? Those who exchange their faith for disbelief have gone astray from the right path.”
Quran 16:101 “When We exchange one verse for another, and Allah knows best what He reveals, they say, ‘You are making this up.’ Most of them do not understand.”
D
DeepDeepTrouble3
Guest
To me, when I was very young, I knew by the Cross. The way it seemed to me was, if God we’re to come to Earth, yes, they would have killed him. I still think that is true today.
T
Teek
Guest
Some of the most illuminating concepts for me between the two religions are as follows:
Jesus and his disciples died for their faith.
Mohammad and his followers killed for their faith.
Jesus was obedient to God in all things.
Mohammad disobeyed Allah in many things, so Allah made exceptions for him.
Jesus describes a spiritual and corporal afterlife for the faithful.
Mohammad described a carnal afterlife for the faithful.
Jesus fulfilled thousands of years of prophesy.
Mohammad popped up out of nowhere, and claimed that Jesus’ promise to send an advocate (the Holy Spirit) was referring to Mohammad.
Jesus was not a sinner.
Mohammad was told by Gabriel to pray for forgiveness and make reparation.
Jesus’ teachings are uplifting and noble.
Mohammad teaches many things that are inhuman and crass. (Beating wives, captives of war are lawful possessions for sexual pleasure, passing gas is a common topic for him.)
Jesus treated women with respect and dignity.
Mohammad married a 6 year old when he was 50, and consummated it when she was 9, taught that it was good to beat your wives, and the Early adherents to Islam did not believe women had a soul.
To name a few.
Jesus and his disciples died for their faith.
Mohammad and his followers killed for their faith.
Jesus was obedient to God in all things.
Mohammad disobeyed Allah in many things, so Allah made exceptions for him.
Jesus describes a spiritual and corporal afterlife for the faithful.
Mohammad described a carnal afterlife for the faithful.
Jesus fulfilled thousands of years of prophesy.
Mohammad popped up out of nowhere, and claimed that Jesus’ promise to send an advocate (the Holy Spirit) was referring to Mohammad.
Jesus was not a sinner.
Mohammad was told by Gabriel to pray for forgiveness and make reparation.
Jesus’ teachings are uplifting and noble.
Mohammad teaches many things that are inhuman and crass. (Beating wives, captives of war are lawful possessions for sexual pleasure, passing gas is a common topic for him.)
Jesus treated women with respect and dignity.
Mohammad married a 6 year old when he was 50, and consummated it when she was 9, taught that it was good to beat your wives, and the Early adherents to Islam did not believe women had a soul.
To name a few.
M
Milt
Guest
Ven. Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen wrote this that may help with the answer.
B
BlackFriar
Guest
Good stuff. Though it is easier to observe a religion that is false or at least imperfect than one that is “true” … whatever that means.
The problem of course is that if we wait until we find the religion that is not imperfect and not erroneous we will be waiting a long long time. What we seek is not so simple it seems.
Perhaps we seek an imperfect place that will best allow us to continuously seek these values in our own personal lives. Much like any relationship really.
There is always a crooked lid to fit a crooked pot. Which means in practise it may not always end up being Roman Catholicism.
The problem of course is that if we wait until we find the religion that is not imperfect and not erroneous we will be waiting a long long time. What we seek is not so simple it seems.
Perhaps we seek an imperfect place that will best allow us to continuously seek these values in our own personal lives. Much like any relationship really.
There is always a crooked lid to fit a crooked pot. Which means in practise it may not always end up being Roman Catholicism.
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T
Teek
Guest
It’s not entirely about the religion. What about the person who founded the religion, historically?The problem of course is that if we wait until we find the religion that is not imperfect and not erroneous we will be waiting a long long time. What we seek is not so simple it seems.
Jesus of Nazareth stands apart from all the rest.
B
BlackFriar
Guest
Only because you believe it to be so.
Others consider other “founders” to “stand out”.
Circular reasoning.
Others consider other “founders” to “stand out”.
Circular reasoning.
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G
GLam1761
Guest
The end of the story is LOVE, that is what we want,
unconditional LOVE, to belong, to be valued. The
God of Catholicism is the One who has reached
Down to us thru His Son, Jesus, He is the Lamb
of God who takes away the sins of the World, all
we have to do to qualify for this LOVE is to accept
this Sacrifice, His death on the Cross. We are then
included in the citizenship of Heaven, members of
God’s Houshold! O yes, we can sin and offend God,
but as long as we are ALIVE, we can repent, and
that is ALL that’s ultimately needed for reconciliation
w/ God. Thru the Church, we have access to God
the Almighty thru the Sacraments of Baptism, Confirm-
ation and Eucharist as well as the Sacrament of Con-
fession to ensure our state of grace, but when it comes
down to the basics, Repentance or Contrition for our
sins is ALL that’s needed to return to God!! Amen,
unconditional LOVE, to belong, to be valued. The
God of Catholicism is the One who has reached
Down to us thru His Son, Jesus, He is the Lamb
of God who takes away the sins of the World, all
we have to do to qualify for this LOVE is to accept
this Sacrifice, His death on the Cross. We are then
included in the citizenship of Heaven, members of
God’s Houshold! O yes, we can sin and offend God,
but as long as we are ALIVE, we can repent, and
that is ALL that’s ultimately needed for reconciliation
w/ God. Thru the Church, we have access to God
the Almighty thru the Sacraments of Baptism, Confirm-
ation and Eucharist as well as the Sacrament of Con-
fession to ensure our state of grace, but when it comes
down to the basics, Repentance or Contrition for our
sins is ALL that’s needed to return to God!! Amen,
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