How do I know?

[CameronEmery]

I’m a mormon, and I asked one of my friends to pray about the truth about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day saints, in return, I would pray about the truth about the Catholic Church, and in addition do research (by catholic authority) and learn as much as I can about the Catholic church. So, my question is, why do catholics believe the Catholic Church is the true church? And what should I learn about the catholic church in my prayerful research of it?

 

[DavidFilmer]

Catholics (who know about this stuff) wonder the same thing about the Mormon Church.

If Christianity is right, but Catholicism (including Eastern Catholic Faiths) is wrong, then only the Mormon Church can be correct.

Protestant Christianity cannot be correct, because all of the protestant founders (Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, etc) were Catholics who departed from their Faith and invented their own doctrines, supposedly founded in the Scriptures that the Catholic Church canonized.

Mormonism is quite different (forgive me for using the colloquial term for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints - it’s kinda like those who say the “Roman Catholic” Church, which is not how our Church officially refers to Herself, but we generally don’t take offense and let it slide).

If I understand correctly, the Mormon Church believes that the Catholic Church (which Jesus established) fell into total (complete) apostasy, so it was necessary for Jesus to establish another Church (somewhere in South America?)

This Church apparently did not do so well, because it was extinct for a long time (just like the original Catholic Church).

Then, Joseph Smith came along. He had previously been convicted of false representation (a con-man). But, somehow, the truth of the Mormon Faith (in its second incarnation from Jesus) was made known to him - either he discovered some “golden tablets” in the woods, or the text was dictated to him by an angel (behind a curtain), in a language called “ancient Egyptian” which no language scholar has ever heard of, and nobody (from Brigham Young on down) had ever heard of seen.

So the modern Mormon Church is really the THIRD incarnation of the Church that Jesus established. The Catholic Church (the first Church that Jesus established) fell into total apostasy, and the next (South American?) Church vanished completely (leaving no historical evidence of its existence), but this second Church was restored by some sort of revelation (the details are sketchy) by Joseph Smith, a convicted con-man.

OK, I’ll start off by saying that Catholics have a real problem with the idea that Jesus Christ established a Church - TWICE, and it failed BOTH TIMES. It was restored (in its second incarnation) by a convicted con-man, whom we have only his word for the truth of his revelation.

In contrast, the Catholic Church has 2000 years of unbroken historical evidence for everything She teaches today.

**SO HERE IS MY QUESTION TO YOU: ** The Mormon Faith would be completely proved (and the Catholic Faith completely disproved) if it could be demonstrated that the Catholic Church actually committed total apostasy.

This is the core belief of your faith. By what specific act did the Catholic Church commit total apostasy? (by specific, I mean the first and thus, the ONLY, significant act)

 

[ProdglArchitect]

Nicely put David. I look forward to an answer OP.

 

[JRKH]

I’m a mormon, and I asked one of my friends to pray about the truth about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day saints, in return, I would pray about the truth about the Catholic Church, and in addition do research (by catholic authority) and learn as much as I can about the Catholic church. So, my question is, why do catholics believe the Catholic Church is the true church? And what should I learn about the catholic church in my prayerful research of it?

Catholics believe the Church is the true church for many reasons but the most fundamental is that

1. the Church can trace it’s apostolic lineage back to the Apostles
2. Jesus said he would establish His church upon the Rock of Simon Peter - and the other Apostles
3. Jesus promised that the Church would not fail because
4. The Holy Spirit would guide it.
5. Thus the gates of hell will not prevail against it.

Built upon this truth from the lips of our Lord Jesus Christ, is 2000 years of solid teaching.

Anyone who wishes to disprove the Catholic Church is the Church Christ founded has to get passed these facts…And that simply cannot be done…Not if one studies prayerfully and diligently.

As David says above - the biggest problem for the Mormon is to demonstrate that the Church fell into total apostasy…
So if I were you I would start there. You HAVE to PROVE the complete Apostasy or there is no need for a restoration.

Peace
James

 

[nodito]

I’m a mormon, and I asked one of my friends to pray about the truth about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day saints, in return, I would pray about the truth about the Catholic Church, and in addition do research (by catholic authority) and learn as much as I can about the Catholic church. So, my question is, why do catholics believe the Catholic Church is the true church? And what should I learn about the catholic church in my prayerful research of it?

CameronEmery,

I think it’s really brave and honest of you to follow through on your end of the bargain to learn about the Catholic Church. I hope your friend gives you the same courtesy (though as a Catholic, I expect, of course, that she will reach the same conclusion I have).

I think in researching the Church’s claim to authority, you should research it’s history. What did the early Christians say about the Church and what did they believe? Read about their understanding of the Eucharist. What did Jesus say about establishing His Church? Did he establish it on Peter and did he promise that the gates of hell would not prevail against it? Track the succession of the popes and see how we have had an unbroken line of shepherds guiding us for over 2000 years.

You might also pray that God grant you the grace to be objective and to be open to learning whatever it is He hopes to for you to gain through this process. It may be learning something in your own religion that He wishes you to absorb better. The Catholic Church teaches that she alone has the fullness of truth, but other religions also contain truth to varying degrees, and this may be an opportunity for you to grown in holiness, even if you do not eventually accept the Catholic religion (though I’d invite you to!)

God bless.

 

[JRKH]

CameronEmery,

I think it’s really brave and honest of you to follow through on your end of the bargain to learn about the Catholic Church. I hope your friend gives you the same courtesy (though as a Catholic, I expect, of course, that she will reach the same conclusion I have).

I think in researching the Church’s claim to authority, you should research it’s history. What did the early Christians say about the Church and what did they believe? Read about their understanding of the Eucharist. What did Jesus say about establishing His Church? Did he establish it on Peter and did he promise that the gates of hell would not prevail against it? Track the succession of the popes and see how we have had an unbroken line of shepherds guiding us for over 2000 years.

You might also pray that God grant you the grace to be objective and to be open to learning whatever it is He hopes to for you to gain through this process. It may be learning something in your own religion that He wishes you to absorb better. The Catholic Church teaches that she alone has the fullness of truth, but other religions also contain truth to varying degrees, and this may be an opportunity for you to grown in holiness, even if you do not eventually accept the Catholic religion (though I’d invite you to!)

God bless.

great post and brings up a point we haven’t mentioned yet. The ECFs.

The Writings of the Early Church Fathers is a great way to know what the early Church believed and to see the continuity of the Church from the Apostles to now.
A good book - kind of a primer on the subject - is “Four Witnesses”.

Peace
James

 

[CameronEmery]

Catholics (who know about this stuff) wonder the same thing about the Mormon Church.

If Christianity is right, but Catholicism (including Eastern Catholic Faiths) is wrong, then only the Mormon Church can be correct.

Protestant Christianity cannot be correct, because all of the protestant founders (Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, etc) were Catholics who departed from their Faith and invented their own doctrines, supposedly founded in the Scriptures that the Catholic Church canonized.

Mormonism is quite different (forgive me for using the colloquial term for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints - it’s kinda like those who say the “Roman Catholic” Church, which is not how our Church officially refers to Herself, but we generally don’t take offense and let it slide).

If I understand correctly, the Mormon Church believes that the Catholic Church (which Jesus established) fell into total (complete) apostasy, so it was necessary for Jesus to establish another Church (somewhere in South America?)

This Church apparently did not do so well, because it was extinct for a long time (just like the original Catholic Church).

Then, Joseph Smith came along. He had previously been convicted of false representation (a con-man). But, somehow, the truth of the Mormon Faith (in its second incarnation from Jesus) was made known to him - either he discovered some “golden tablets” in the woods, or the text was dictated to him by an angel (behind a curtain), in a language called “ancient Egyptian” which no language scholar has ever heard of, and nobody (from Brigham Young on down) had ever heard of seen.

So the modern Mormon Church is really the THIRD incarnation of the Church that Jesus established. The Catholic Church (the first Church that Jesus established) fell into total apostasy, and the next (South American?) Church vanished completely (leaving no historical evidence of its existence), but this second Church was restored by some sort of revelation (the details are sketchy) by Joseph Smith, a convicted con-man.

OK, I’ll start off by saying that Catholics have a real problem with the idea that Jesus Christ established a Church - TWICE, and it failed BOTH TIMES. It was restored (in its second incarnation) by a convicted con-man, whom we have only his word for the truth of his revelation.

In contrast, the Catholic Church has 2000 years of unbroken historical evidence for everything She teaches today.

**SO HERE IS MY QUESTION TO YOU: ** The Mormon Faith would be completely proved (and the Catholic Faith completely disproved) if it could be demonstrated that the Catholic Church actually committed total apostasy.

This is the core belief of your faith. By what specific act did the Catholic Church commit total apostasy? (by specific, I mean the first and thus, the ONLY, significant act)

Thanks but I came here to learn about catholicism, not falsehoods about my church.

 

[Abu]

CameronEmery
So, my question is, why do catholics believe the Catholic Church is the true church? And what should I learn about the catholic church in my prayerful research of it?

Because we believe that Christ is God and very clearly established His Church on St Peter as His first Pope when He mandated:
In all four promises to Peter alone:
“You are Peter and on this rock I will build My Church.” (Mt 16:18)
“The gates of hell will not prevail against it.”(Mt 16:18)
I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of heaven." ( Mt 16:19)
“Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven.” (Mt 16:19) [Later to the Twelve, also].

Sole supreme authority:
“Strengthen your brethren.” (Lk 22:32)
“Feed My sheep.”(Jn 21:17).

As the Catholic Church commissioned by Christ Himself infallibly declared what writings comprise the Word of God (the Bible) and no others, we know what to believe and how to live to please God through Her Tradition, Her Scriptures and Her Magisterium (or teaching authority) established by Christ.

It was Jesus who said to His Apostles “he that hears you hears Me” (Lk 10:16).

The Church is “the pillar and bulwark of the truth (1 Tim 3:16).” St. Paul says also, “through the Church the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places (Eph 3:10).” The Church teaches even the angels! This is with the authority of Christ! We are redeemed by Christ’s Passion and Death (heaven was opened); we are not saved until we co-operate with Him.

 

[CameronEmery]

CameronEmery,

I think it’s really brave and honest of you to follow through on your end of the bargain to learn about the Catholic Church. I hope your friend gives you the same courtesy (though as a Catholic, I expect, of course, that she will reach the same conclusion I have).

I think in researching the Church’s claim to authority, you should research it’s history. What did the early Christians say about the Church and what did they believe? Read about their understanding of the Eucharist. What did Jesus say about establishing His Church? Did he establish it on Peter and did he promise that the gates of hell would not prevail against it? Track the succession of the popes and see how we have had an unbroken line of shepherds guiding us for over 2000 years.

You might also pray that God grant you the grace to be objective and to be open to learning whatever it is He hopes to for you to gain through this process. It may be learning something in your own religion that He wishes you to absorb better. The Catholic Church teaches that she alone has the fullness of truth, but other religions also contain truth to varying degrees, and this may be an opportunity for you to grown in holiness, even if you do not eventually accept the Catholic religion (though I’d invite you to!)

God bless.

Thank you nodito! I just want to learn as much as possible.

 

[CameronEmery]

Nicely put David. I look forward to an answer OP.

This this really how you treat people who are interested in your church? You’re basically saying “oh he got you good, what are you gonna say, OP?” And I know what the Internet calls OP’s. This is why I’m not catholic. There are so many passive aggressive catholics against me when I come into this forum. I get, that it’s because I’m mormon and you think that I’m the spawn of Satan or something. But mormons are people too and deserve just as much love and respect as you give anyone else. I’m tryin to put this as simply as possible… stop. And be nice.

 

[JRKH]

This this really how you treat people who are interested in your church?

Each person has their own way of communicating on forums such as these. Please do not take offense. you have received some good answers to your questions. Let’s just go from there.

You’re basically saying “oh he got you good, what are you gonna say, OP?” And I know what the Internet calls OP’s.

I don’t know about what other things OP might stand for but here it generally stands for either the Opening Post or the “Original Poster”.
Just want to clear that up.

Peace
James

 

[Abu]

Cameron,
With Christ’s authority and foundation, the Catholic Church has the seven sacraments – outward signs of inward grace instituted by Christ – Baptism, Holy Orders, the Holy Eucharist (The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass and Holy Communion), Confirmation, Penance (Reconciliation), Marriage, Extreme Unction (in danger of death).

She has been formed by Christ to teach, rule and sanctify which is why He gave us His Magisterium, founded on St Peter.
MAGISTERIUM. The Church’s teaching authority, vested in the bishops, as successors of the Apostles, under the Roman Pontiff, as successor of St. Peter. Also vested in the Pope, as Vicar of Christ and visible head of the Catholic Church. (Etym. Latin magister, master.)
Modern Catholic Dictionary
by Fr. John A. Hardon, S.J.
therealpresence.org/cgi-bin/getdefinition.pl

 

[CameronEmery]

Catholics believe the Church is the true church for many reasons but the most fundamental is that

1. the Church can trace it’s apostolic lineage back to the Apostles
2. Jesus said he would establish His church upon the Rock of Simon Peter - and the other Apostles
3. Jesus promised that the Church would not fail because
4. The Holy Spirit would guide it.
5. Thus the gates of hell will not prevail against it.

Built upon this truth from the lips of our Lord Jesus Christ, is 2000 years of solid teaching.

Anyone who wishes to disprove the Catholic Church is the Church Christ founded has to get passed these facts…And that simply cannot be done…Not if one studies prayerfully and diligently.

As David says above - the biggest problem for the Mormon is to demonstrate that the Church fell into total apostasy…
So if I were you I would start there. You HAVE to PROVE the complete Apostasy or there is no need for a restoration.

Peace
James

Thanks!

 

[CameronEmery]

Each person has their own way of communicating on forums such as these. Please do not take offense. you have received some good answers to your questions. Let’s just go from there.

I don’t know about what other things OP might stand for but here it generally stands for either the Opening Post or the “Original Poster”.
Just want to clear that up.

Peace
James

Okay, sorry I just strongly feel like catholics are passively aggresive toward mormons. And it really bothers me when I’m trying to just get answers.

 

[JRKH]

Okay, sorry I just strongly feel like Catholics are passively aggressive toward Mormons. And it really bothers me when I’m trying to just get answers.

Well - let me just say that if you want to get answers, this is a good place.
However - you have to remember that on an open forum you are going to get many types.
I have learned that the best way is to simply ignore replies that seem aggressive, or otherwise are just not helpful. (confession: I’m not always very good at that…)

Peace
James

 

[slh3016]

Okay, sorry I just strongly feel like catholics are passively aggresive toward mormons. And it really bothers me when I’m trying to just get answers.

Yes, they may be passive aggressive, but this is not exclusive to Catholics vs Mormons and/or vice versa…just saying.

You would likely get the same kind of attitude on any Christian forum you visit. To say, “This is why I’m not a Catholic” is a little absurd. Surely, THAT is not the only reason you are not a Catholic

I was once on an airplane from Salt Lake City to St. Louis with a Mormon who was also very passive aggressive and sometimes aggressive in projecting his beliefs/witnessing to non-Mormons. Finally, as we deboarded, he made an off-hand comment to the stewardess and she put him in his place

Thanks but I came here to learn about catholicism, not falsehoods about my church.

Maybe you can start a dialog by gently showing us what falsehoods have been presented. I am sure that all those responding to this thread would like to know what errors in understanding they/I have regarding the Mormon faith, just as I would hope that you and fellow Mormons would be open to correcting the errors that you believe about Catholicism.

So, my question is, why do catholics believe the Catholic Church is the true church? And what should I learn about the catholic church in my prayerful research of it?

I had the very same questions as you not that long ago and honestly, I felt that most Catholics were quite obnoxious in this claim. However, the more I researched the core beliefs of the Church and the teachings of the Early Church Fathers, the more convinced I have become.

Others have given very concise reasons why the Catholic Church makes the claims that it does. I encourage you to research those. However, be forewarned that you may find yourself in a very uncomfortable position regarding your own existing beliefs and the first thing that one usually does when confronted with differing views is to very defensive. You must guard yourself against this and keep an open mind if you truly want to learn about the Catholic Church’s teachings.

I just want to learn as much as possible.

If this is true, it will be a long road. I suggest that you do some independent reading about Catholicism before jumping on the Catholic Answers forums, because with all due respect to those who comment here (and I appreciate you all for answering my numerous questions ), this is really the church militant and you are likely to misunderstand them without a basic understanding of the Catholic Church’s teachings. I suggest against open-ended questions. Be very specific and you will get very specific answers. Your original question has numerous books devoted to that exact subject (and an overwhelming subject it is!!!).

Below are some readings/lectures that I have found very beneficial in my research of the Catholic Church:

Rome Sweet Home by Scott Hahn (book)
*A Father Who Keeps His Promises * by Scott Hahn (book)
“The Lamb’s Supper” audio lecture by Scott Hahn
“The Fourth Cup” audio lecture by Scott Hahn
“Understanding the Eucharist” audio lecture by Scott Hahn
“Signs of Life: Catholic Customs and their Biblical Roots” audio lecture by Scott Hahn
“The Virgin Mary Revealed through Scripture” audio lecture by Scott Hahn
“Why Do We Have a Pope” audio lecture by Scott Hahn

Can you tell I like Scott Hahn?!?!? I find that he is very personable and interesting in his approach to explaining these topics and doesn’t speak “over my head” with lofty words, etc.

“Jesus the Bridegroom-The Greatest Love Story Ever Told” by Dr. Brant Pitre (audio lecture)

{All the above audio lectures I have found on youtube, but they can be purchased and downloaded from Lighthouse Catholic Media as well}

Catholicism and Fundamentalism book by Karl Keating (would have to maintain the perspective that this book is outlining the differences between Catholicism and mainstream Protestantism)

If Protestantism is True book by Devin Rose (lots of implications for Mormonism outlined in this book although the main purpose is to show the illogicalness of Protestantism)

Also, I know there are several converts from Mormonism into the Catholic Church that have appeared on EWTN’s The Journey Home television program. I believe you can search through their archives on their website to view these testimonials. You may find compelling nuggets of wisdom and information.

 

[Mummsie]

Hello Cameron,

It looks like you’ve received some very good starting points already. I noticed the “Challenging” posts and assumed they hadn’t quite understood your question. My apologies if we sometimes come across so aggressively.

I didn’t notice anyone recommending the Catholic Catechism. It really lays everything out there. It tells what we believe and why we believe it (complete with scripture references).

Praying your inquiry into Catholicism yields provides what you need.

God Bless you.

 

[steve_b]

I’m a mormon, and I asked one of my friends to pray about the truth about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day saints, in return, I would pray about the truth about the Catholic Church, and in addition do research (by catholic authority) and learn as much as I can about the Catholic church. So, my question is, why do catholics believe the Catholic Church is the true church? And what should I learn about the catholic church in my prayerful research of it?

Cameron, I hope this answers your question

For history, be sure and open all the internal links #[34 (http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=11997086&postcount=34). There’s alot of reading to those links. As you can see, in a 400 year history beginning with Jesus and the apostles , I used scripture & Tradition testifying to the Catholic Church IN WRITING using primary documents, as evidence to show it is the Catholic Church that Jesus established. Therefore it is the Catholic Church that received all the promises of Jesus. Therefore the Catholic Church is the true Church. Keep in mind Jesus promised not even the gates of Hell will prevail against His Church that He says He will build. Therefore the Cathiolic Church can’t fail.

Now let’s put your question another way,

Given that

• We know who started the Mormons and when they were started.
• We know** who** started each Protestant sect and when they were started.

THAT timeline, + who started each of THEM, + scripture condemning ANY division from what Jesus established, is all the evidence necessary to disqualify every one of THEM as the true Church .

Therefore, here’s the question I would ask in return

How can anyone NOT see that it is the Catholic Church that is the true Church?