How do I navigate a Traditional relationship?

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Yes, he was previously married and got an annulment (I don’t know how that works).
We are not getting married not because I wouldn’t mind getting married (I would like to and do believe that it is proper in the eyes of God to be married when in a relationship for this long).

EasterJoy—you are totally correct. I am here to find out what is required of a Catholic woman because I know pretty much what is required of an Orthodox Jewish woman and it’s a lot.

Again, about keeping on topic. I don’t think he’s living a double life as most of our time is spent together (when would he have time?)… And it’s about navigating the relationship, trying to find common ground and understandings between the two of us so that we can have a more understanding and loving relationship. I feel the need to find out about Catholicism because it seems he has studied a bit about Judiasm (shoot—he comes to my mom’s for Break the Fast after Yom Kippur, came for Pesach, etc., though he won’t go to even the Friday night service in a Reformed Temple.

All the book suggestions have been good. The knowledge that a Catholic Jewish relationship could last for 35 years is great (though my parents got divorced after 35 years while my grandparents were married for 63 before my grandfather died).

Anyway–thanks 🙂
 
Hannah75 said:
Yes, he was previously married and got an annulment (I don’t know how that works).
We are not getting married not because I wouldn’t mind getting married (I would like to and do believe that it is proper in the eyes of God to be married when in a relationship for this long).

EasterJoy—you are totally correct. I am here to find out what is required of a Catholic woman because I know pretty much what is required of an Orthodox Jewish woman and it’s a lot.

Again, about keeping on topic. I don’t think he’s living a double life as most of our time is spent together (when would he have time?)… And it’s about navigating the relationship, trying to find common ground and understandings between the two of us so that we can have a more understanding and loving relationship. I feel the need to find out about Catholicism because it seems he has studied a bit about Judiasm (shoot—he comes to my mom’s for Break the Fast after Yom Kippur, came for Pesach, etc., though he won’t go to even the Friday night service in a Reformed Temple.

All the book suggestions have been good. The knowledge that a Catholic Jewish relationship could last for 35 years is great (though my parents got divorced after 35 years while my grandparents were married for 63 before my grandfather died).

Anyway–thanks 🙂
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By “double life”, I only meant that he would do with you what he knows his friends would strongly disapprove of or even would think is a mortal sin, so he keeps you away from those friends, even though he secretly agrees with them that he is being immoral. But I think you are right in believing this not to be the case. The only way you can know, if you have doubts, is to ask…when you do something you wonder if he thinks is OK, if you wonder if he thinks it might be a near occasion of sin, for instance, ask: “I know some Traditional Catholics don’t think unmarried men and women should do this, that it is a near occasion of sin. Does it make you uncomfortable? Would you rather not do it?”

Ask him what he considers to be modest dress and behavior, reverence in talking about God, all the topics that you know about. He may think it presumptious to tell you what he thinks, if you never ask, because he believes you are entitled to your own beliefs, and he doesn’t want to imply otherwise. With regards to modesty, for instance, it depends upon the local culture and the temptations faced by actual men in your acquaintance…like your friend. Some Traditional Catholics think women should never wear pants. Some think pants are fine, as long as they aren’t painted on. Some think pants are fine in theory, but an occasion of sin for themselves and so hope they don’t see a lot of women wearing them over the course of a day. It just depends. Since you’re not Catholic, there is exactly one Catholic whose opinion counts with you.

That sounds like a very nice guy you have for a friend, and a good Catholic, too. He draws his own religious boundaries, and I’m sure he wants you to draw your own. Best of luck!
 
Hannah75 said:
I am here to find out what is required of a Catholic woman because I know pretty much what is required of an Orthodox Jewish woman and it’s a lot.
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But within what context? You say that you are in love with each other, it appears he is free to marry. What is required of a Catholic woman is to either be in a completely chaste friendly relationship, or get married. I don’t see some in-between state where you can be not married yet intimate, or married and not intimate, or some other combination.

And no I do not think it is cheeky at all to ask these questions as suggested by a previous poster. They are completely relevant if you wish to understand how to live in a relationship with a Catholic man. So what I am trying to understand, but you keep evading, is what do YOU mean by “relationship”? What is your intention? To live apart and just be friends for the rest of your lives? To be romantically involved and live apart? To be intimate and live apart? 🤷

This defines the context for us to answer your opening question. What do you intend to do with this relationship - THEN we can tell you what is expected of a Catholic woman.

I hope this makes sense to you - I’m not trying to beat you up over this, but you are leaving a significant amount of detail out of the equation here that is required to answer your question.

~Liza
 
Hannah75 said:
Yes, he was previously married and got an annulment (I don’t know how that works).
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The Catholic Church recognizes the right of Catholics to marry each other, and so when a couple who might or might not be able to fulfill the requirements of marriage, they are allowed to try it. Catholics do not have the right to marry outside the Church, but may validly marry non-Catholics, even non-baptized persons, if proper permissions are obtained first. (If proper permissions are not obtained, it is possible to fix that after the fact.)

Nevertheless, the Church believes that if two people attempt marriage who are not capable of it, a marriage never took place. It is like the difference between a civil divorce and a civil annulment. In the Catholic case, if you can show, in retrospect, that your partner, unbeknownst to you, never intended to be faithful: no marriage ever existed. This is because the intention to fulfill the vows is a necessary part of a valid marriage. If the partner did not have the capacity to make a vow and keep it on the day the vows were made: no marriage ever existed. This is different than having the capacity, but choosing not to exercise it. The choice of one party to sin does not make a previously valid marriage null and void. There are also other factors of form that may come in: a Catholic is not allowed to marry outside the Church without a dispensation, so such a marriage is not valid. If your friend got married by a justice of the peace or in a Lutheran church (having been a baptized Catholic himself at the time, one who had never formally left the Church) without a dispensation from his bishop, he was never married at all, in the eyes of the Roman Catholic Church, even if he married another Catholic!

Anyway, the Church has tribunals that will investigate these things, after a civil divorce takes place…and only then, lest the marriage be damaged by the investigation itself. Civil divorce is allowed under serious circumstances, so property may be justly divided if the couple cannot live in peace, to protect the safety of spouses or family members, and so on. But if the divorced couple cannot demonstrate with witnesses or other factual evidence that the marriage was invalid from the start, the parties are not free to remarry…well, except to re-marry each other under civil law. If the marriage is not declared null, the couple is married but separated, in the eyes of the Church. If the divorce was for a just reason, they may participate in the life of the Church–go to communion, etc.–but they may not re-marry, date, or even have emotional relationships akin to a second marriage.

Every marriage is presumed to be valid (to have really taken place, not just attempted) until a tribunal finds evidence to the contrary, and issues a decree of nullity (aka grants an annulment). The Church also believes that non-Catholics may enter into valid marriages, and so even non-Catholics who were previously married outside the Church have to obtain findings of nullity in order to marry a Catholic within the Church. Of course, there are other exceptions and whatnot, but those are the broad facts.

I hope that helps.
 
jen_fla said:
to any Catholic that knows their faith they know that our salvation came from the Jews. we see it as an extension of Judaism. but it is kind of amazing that some Christians forget that Jesus and His apostles were all Jewish. .
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Yep, and even the elements of the Catholic Mass are heavily based on Jewish Temple worship. It might seem a bit unusual to a modern Rabbinical Jew, but the general form, even the vestments are based on what the High Priest did at the Temple. Even the Chant is based on Jewish Psalm chant.
 
lizaanne said:
But within what context? You say that you are in love with each other, it appears he is free to marry. What is required of a Catholic woman is to either be in a completely chaste friendly relationship, or get married. I don’t see some in-between state where you can be not married yet intimate, or married and not intimate, or some other combination.

And no I do not think it is cheeky at all to ask these questions as suggested by a previous poster. They are completely relevant if you wish to understand how to live in a relationship with a Catholic man. So what I am trying to understand, but you keep evading, is what do YOU mean by “relationship”? What is your intention? To live apart and just be friends for the rest of your lives? To be romantically involved and live apart? To be intimate and live apart? 🤷

This defines the context for us to answer your opening question. What do you intend to do with this relationship - THEN we can tell you what is expected of a Catholic woman.

I hope this makes sense to you - I’m not trying to beat you up over this, but you are leaving a significant amount of detail out of the equation here that is required to answer your question.

~Liza
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I should not have called you cheeky. Still, there is a point in having a friendship with a man who is not going to marry you, even if you would marry him, given the chance, provided you know that the relationship is going to remain chaste. Friendship is the point. As long as the relationship does not present a near occasion of sin, it is a very good point.

If her friend, for instance, thinks that re-marriage would interfere with his duties as a father, he might well keep her as a friend, since she is willing, because she is OK with his open admission that their friendship cannot advance to marriage. To put it in a Catholic context, they may have both found that the single life works right now, and that their friendship can be maintained indefinitely within the constraints of the single life in complete chastity.

Since his previous marriage was null, he is free to date anyone he likes, without the promise of marriage, provided he is not leading her on. He can go out dancing with her, hiking with her, discuss books with her or watch movies with her. He cannot do anything to tempt her to unchastity, or do anything like that with her, but he is not under the same constraints he would be, if he were not free to marry.

(PS to the original poster: You haven’t said if you’ve ever been married before. Do you know if he believes you are free to marry?)
 
EasterJoy said:
I should not have called you cheeky. Still, there is a point in having a friendship with a man who is not going to marry you, even if you would marry him, given the chance, provided you know that the relationship is going to remain chaste. Friendship is the point. As long as the relationship does not present a near occasion of sin, it is a very good point.

If her friend, for instance, thinks that re-marriage would interfere with his duties as a father, he might well keep her as a friend, since she is willing, because she is OK with his open admission that their friendship cannot advance to marriage. To put it in a Catholic context, they may have both found that the single life works right now, and that their friendship can be maintained indefinitely within the constraints of the single life in complete chastity.
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This is why I’m trying to understand what SHE means by “relationship”. We really can not answer her questions without knowing this.
Since his previous marriage was null, he is free to date anyone he likes, without the promise of marriage, provided he is not leading her on. He can go out dancing with her, hiking with her, discuss books with her or watch movies with her. He cannot do anything to tempt her to unchastity, or do anything like that with her, but he is not under the same constraints he would be, if he were not free to marry.
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This is all very true - but she says they are in love with each other. I find it difficult to understand how two people who are truly in love can just remain chaste friends.

There is a piece of this story missing that does not make sense. That is why I’m asking her to define “relationship” for me.

~Liza
 
Brendan said:
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Yep, and even the elements of the Catholic Mass are heavily based on Jewish Temple worship. It might seem a bit unusual to a modern Rabbinical Jew, but the general form, even the vestments are based on what the High Priest did at the Temple. Even the Chant is based on Jewish Psalm chant.
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I have a friend who is Jewish and every year he brings the group of teenagers who are studying for their Bar and Bat Mitvahs to Mass.
 
lizaanne said:
This is why I’m trying to understand what SHE means by “relationship”. We really can not answer her questions without knowing this.

This is all very true - but she says they are in love with each other. I find it difficult to understand how two people who are truly in love can just remain chaste friends.

There is a piece of this story missing that does not make sense. That is why I’m asking her to define “relationship” for me.

~Liza
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Maybe something is missing and maybe it isn’t, but once we established that her friend isn’t married, I feel certain that she has sufficient knowledge about what the sexual mores of the Catholic Church are. OK, it could be said bluntly that genital stimulation outside of intercourse is also not allowed, there are faith traditions that don’t go that far, but other than that, I find it hard to believe that anybody asking about how a Catholic woman is supposed to behave would hear “chastity” and “near occasion of sin” and not get the message that sex outside of marriage is not allowed. With the exceptions noted above, we don’t need to draw a picture. She is not a kid, and neither is he. After 2 1/2 years, she probably knows what their abilities and intentions are in that department. If they are more physically intimate than what is allowed outside of marriage, be sure that they both know what the Church thinks about that. That cannot be why the OP is here. She wants us to tell her something she doesn’t know, preferably those things she doesn’t know to ask.

I’m also not as puzzled as you are. There is a certain age at which a few of us don’t find sex to be the temptation that it once was, and that age may come many years before the age when physical ability departs. This is particularly true if one has a sexual history that is painful, but it doesn’t have to be anything like that. So there is that possibility, too. It is not as if those who are free to marry are not free to hug or hold hands or waltz together outside of marriage. What is allowed may be enough physical affection for them. As long as it isn’t a temptation, as long as they are not “on fire” as St. Paul would put it, that is allowed. It is comprehensible that a beautiful relationship between a man and woman could exist indefinitely at that level of physical intimacy. In fact, if either or both of them has no intention of ever doing more, marriage isn’t indicated. Marriages need to be consumated. In fact, her friend may not want to marry because he doesn’t want a more physically intimate relationship than they already have. There are many other reasons that continence may not be an issue for them.

My point is that we can explain these things without nosing in to whether any of it applies to her in particular. We don’t need to give her the third degree where her disclosures aren’t necessary. I think she’d feel much safer if we just gave her the information without asking her to post too much of her personal situation on the internet. It is better that these forums stay off of that kind of information, anyway.
 
EasterJoy said:
There is a certain age at which a few of us don’t find sex to be the temptation that it once was…
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Have I missed where she gave us their ages? I don’t believe we know this.
My point is that we can explain these things without nosing in to whether any of it applies to her in particular. We don’t need to give her the third degree where her disclosures aren’t necessary. I think she’d feel much safer if we just gave her the information without asking her to post too much of her personal situation on the internet. It is better that these forums stay off of that kind of information, anyway.
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I’m not giving anyone the third degree. She came here asking a very valid and important question. I do not believe we can answer that question without the proper pieces of the puzzle. I have no idea who this woman is - how are we posting personal information?? YOU are the one who is getting all graphic talking about genital stimulation for goodness sake!! 😊

She wants to know how to act like a Catholic woman - I’m asking her in what context. That is in no way out of line.

~Liza
 
Hannah,

Hi. Our very, Catholic Pope once called Judaism our big brother, because we discovered the worship of Him thru you and our Savior, along with His mother and the apostles, were good Jews.

If I were you, I would read the Douay-Rheims New Testament (and the Old Testament books - there are 7 - from the Septuagint, if you are not familiar with them), a Baltimore catechism (1,2, and 3), the 1997 Catechism of the Catholic Church, a 1962 or before Roman Missal (the Latin is translated to English on the each facing page), and the book that Easter Joy mentioned. You might also find helpful Honey from the Rock - a book of stories about Jewish persons led to the Catholic Church, it might make it easier for you to understand what you have read in the previous books and equate it with what you know in your own faith.

One other thing - if you have speakers attached to your computer, you can listen to the archives of Catholic Answers Radio section of the internet page. You might hear the most helpful things by listening to the dates when Rosalind Moss answers questions. She converted from Conservative (or Orthodox?) Judaism to protestant Christianity, then to Catholicism and often uses her knowledge of the reasons behind many things in Judaism to explain things in Catholicism. She is now in the beginning stages of founding a new community of Catholic nuns.

That’s a whole lot! I’d start with the New Testament.
:blessyou:
 
ConservativeOne said:
Dear Hannah -
Believe it or not - even couples who are Traditional / modern-practicing Catholics face similar issues. But what hit me was when I opened this thread - The description next to your name reads: “Religion: None” :confused: You didn’t indicate Jewish. Are you not a practicing Jew? Are you, perhaps, searching?

Any couple with Faith-based differences start on a rocky path, if they are true to their respective Faith’s beliefs. You sound as though you want to learn something of the Catholic religion for both your sakes but is that just to be “ecumenical” (for lack of a better word)? Do you want to give up your Jewish Faith / traditions and convert? Are you hoping you can have a marriage (if that’s where you’re heading) that will blend two religions?

Yes, in this world finding someone as we get older who we believe is “the right one” can be a joy. If your religions differ, it’s an obvious problem when children are hoped for. But you must decide if your Jewish Faith has been more of a joy to you before him. You both have to decide who will worship where. How will you marry - by a Priest or a Rabbi? How “traditional” is this man? If he is “Traditional” as opposed to modern - I’m wondering if your first hurdle will be the wedding. And then, how / where will you worship as a married couple? Temple/Synagogue or Church? How will your families deal with this union? And how long before one of you expects the other to convert? And will that conversion be for the right reasons?

There’s alot of soul-searching involved here. Probably all of us have seen Fiddler on the Roof - and we know what “tradition” means - no matter what our Credo. And we know how difficult the choices. Love can grow stronger - but it can change. Our Faith must be steadfast. It’s wonderful that you want to learn / show an interest in your friend’s Catholic Faith - but will that be just a novelty, a concession - or eventually, a choice made from the heart - for the RIGHT reasons. I wish you both happiness and God’s Choicest Blessings in your decision-making.
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Nice work–thank you for sharing-
Thanks so much for this. I appreciate the effort. It really helps a lot.
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I’d really consider asking him to look into an RCIA program for you. Most are starting up right now, or else have only been going for a few weeks.

My husband, who had very little formal religious training, went before we married. The usual structure is that it is informational/inquiry only until Advent starts (Nov. 29 this year: count back 4 Sundays from Christmas). He was in a different city at the time, so we didn’t go together, but it gave him a basis for quite a few important conversations where he’d relate what he understood from the class, and I’d give him my take on it (including whether I thought they’d gotten it right…what can I say? :rolleyes:)

Anyway, it is totally OK to show up and say the you have no intention of converting, just a friend who is Catholic that has made you curious to learn what the Catholic Church teaches and how Catholics see themselves.
 
We are well past the fires of youth. Right now, though we are living together, I would say our physical relationship is like that of two best friends.

I do feel like he is worried about compromising his relationship with his children by being with me—which is a notion suffered by all humanity, not just Catholics and Jews.

I feel that he is scared to be with me. He doesn’t want to go there in our conversations, and he in fact said he is starting to feel that our relationship (physically) is dubious.

If I could be the woman he wants/needs me to be, I would be happy. I am not so prideful that I must have my way every day all the time. I am perfectly willing to stand back and let him take the lead. Which then leads to the question of what is required of a Catholic woman? I don’t want to pine after him forever if he simply cannot be there for me. If he strongly believes that his faith is interfering with his relationship (with me), then maybe it would be best if I simply searched elsewhere. I don’t want to do this, and this is why I have come here.

I truly don’t remember all the posts and there were various things I wanted to respond to, but I don’t know how to do quotations and will have to leave it at that.

I cannot have children. He can. Even if we tried to have children, we wouldn’t. So children between him and myself are just not going to happen. In so far as marraige. I think he still has a loyalty to his former wife (which is understandable but sort of scary for me). She is the mother of his children, and he respects her—which is the right thing to be doing. I am just sad that I do not/cannot command more of his attention. He has given me a ring which indicates some loyalty and fidelity to me…

other than that. I do not know.
 
Hannah75 said:
We are well past the fires of youth. Right now, though we are living together, I would say our physical relationship is like that of two best friends.

I do feel like he is worried about compromising his relationship with his children by being with me—which is a notion suffered by all humanity, not just Catholics and Jews.

I feel that he is scared to be with me. He doesn’t want to go there in our conversations, and he in fact said he is starting to feel that our relationship (physically) is dubious.

If I could be the woman he wants/needs me to be, I would be happy. I am not so prideful that I must have my way every day all the time. I am perfectly willing to stand back and let him take the lead. Which then leads to the question of what is required of a Catholic woman? I don’t want to pine after him forever if he simply cannot be there for me. If he strongly believes that his faith is interfering with his relationship (with me), then maybe it would be best if I simply searched elsewhere. I don’t want to do this, and this is why I have come here.

I truly don’t remember all the posts and there were various things I wanted to respond to, but I don’t know how to do quotations and will have to leave it at that.

I cannot have children. He can. Even if we tried to have children, we wouldn’t. So children between him and myself are just not going to happen. In so far as marraige. I think he still has a loyalty to his former wife (which is understandable but sort of scary for me). She is the mother of his children, and he respects her—which is the right thing to be doing. I am just sad that I do not/cannot command more of his attention. He has given me a ring which indicates some loyalty and fidelity to me…

other than that. I do not know.
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In the view of the Catholic Church (and even more strongly for a Traditionalist), if he is living with a woman to whom he is not closely related then he is living in a scandalous situation (sinful) and one which is also is a “near occasion of sin” (strong temptation for fornication). As he is a Traditionalist, I’m fairly sure he knows this and that is how (at least 1 way) he feels he is compromising his relationship with his children. For him (or any faithful Catholic) the only alternative would be to live separately. I’m sorry. You seem like a very intelligent and caring woman. This doesn’t mean that the Church feels he can’t have anything more to do with you, at all. Only that living together is considered wrong (I imagine he’s feeling torn about giving a bad example to his children, no matter how old they are, that’s the way parents are). Could he live next door? That would be fine (unless he stayed overnight, of course;)).
From what you’re saying, understanding where he is coming from is going to best come from New Testament (DR) and the Baltimore Catechism (esp. #3).

God’s Blessings on you! Long before I converted to Catholicism, while still a protestant, I was engaged to a Jewish boy - so I know (somewhat) your confusion and concern.
 
i have a similar situation. I was born and raised catholic. Here recently I started dating a Muslim. Which he is very invloved with his religion. We tend to speak of our religion and in some ways its very similar in regards to our beliefs but there are still differences. We have not gotten too serious yet but I think that that is a posibility if we continue. My dilema is how can I continue with him and if it does get serious not let our religions be an obstacle in our relationship because of our beliefs.

Lupita
 
lupita1212 said:
My dilema is how can I continue with him and if it does get serious not let our religions be an obstacle in our relationship because of our beliefs.

Lupita
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Faith is something you should share with your spouse, something that brings you closer together - not an obstacle to be dealt with. One of the primary responsibilities of a Catholic spouse is to get their spouse to heaven. How can you possibly do that with a Muslim? 🤷

~Liza
 
I guess for me, that’s the crux of the issue. I don’t want to interfere with his going to Heaven. He and I are actually going to embark on a long distance relationship (his kids live in the next state—so setting an example for them is different than it would be if they were next door). He is considering (if he can, money-wise—we don’t have much of that) moving to be with his children full-time (this has just been a recent possibility as his non-ex-wife has retained custody of the children for various reasons having nothing to do with his capacity as a father). He may move out there and I may go out to visit.

Regarding getting married. Can we be married just the two of us get married (no big ceremony) if we just go see a priest? Neither of us wants a big ceremony. Neither of us wants the pomp and circumstance of a wedding. His non-ex-wife treated him badly, and that’s part of the reason for his hesitation in getting involved in that way. I would love to have a big wedding with a dress and cake and family, he just isn’t into that. In so far as I’m concerned, marraige is an affirmation of love under God. I don’t think the ideas of marraige in some most fundamental ways are all that different between a Catholic and a Jew. The ceremonies are different, the words may be different. But the idea of loving someone til death (and not even stopping then) sounds right to me.

Again, I don’t want to cross his religion and I guess part of this is trying to figure out where those lines lie. I don’t want to hurt him. I want to love him as best as I can.

Thanks
Hannah:o
 
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