How do I prove objective morality?

[John10]

I do, however it is not related to independent objective moral standards.

I am all in for democracy, it is definitely the way to go, however I would not trust that for moral standards.

 

[Wozza]

I do, however it is not related to independent objective moral standards.

I am all in for democracy, it is definitely the way to go, however I would not trust that for moral standards.

As Churchill said, democracy is the worst possible system we have, except for all the others.

Your mission, should you wish to accept it, is to tell me who knows when something is morally correct or not.

 

[John10]

Your mission, should you wish to accept it, is to tell me who knows when something is morally correct or not.

For me it is really easy as I have said before God and his commandments is the only One who determines what is morally acceptable and not. In our case the Catholic Church doctrine, teachings and magisterium provide the needed guidance.

Plus the conscience which we all have, will bother us if we do evil deeds, although we can ignore it however we will never fully silence it.

However those who claim God does not exist or are unsure about His existence would have a harder time justifying morality, because the only other thing to justify it is people’s opinion (majority or not) and we have already discussed that is a dead end.

 

[VanitasVanitatum]

It’s a nonsensical position.

Objectively it isn’t, but I was talking about debate wise since you can physically do something about it though there is no guarantee of success.

 

[Wozza]

Wozza:

Your mission, should you wish to accept it, is to tell me who knows when something is morally correct or not.

For me it is really easy as I have said before God and his commandments is the only One who determines what is morally acceptable and not. In our case the Catholic Church doctrine, teachings and magisterium provide the needed guidance.

So being a Hindu is immoral? And are you saying that you need guidance?

 

[John10]

So being a Hindu is immoral? And are you saying that you need guidance?

If they believe something which we know through our Catholic Doctrine to be evil (such as abortion) they are, but not because they are Hindu, but rather because they are advocating for something which is evil.

Clearly killing an innocent baby is wrong, regardless of your religious beliefs. Of course I need guidance, that is precisely why God left me (and every other Catholic) our Catholic Church to obtain that needed guidance.

 

[Wozza]

Wozza:

So being a Hindu is immoral? And are you saying that you need guidance?

If they believe something which we know through our Catholic Doctrine to be evil (such as abortion) they are, but not because they are Hindu, but rather because they are advocating for something which is evil.

Clearly killing an innocent baby is wrong, regardless of your religious beliefs. Of course I need guidance, that is precisely why God left me (and every other Catholic) our Catholic Church to obtain that needed guidance.

OK. Go it. All other relions beliefs regarding morality are fine. As long as they agree with the Catholic church.

Now what if that guidance leads to conflicting ideas regarding moral matters? How do we know who is right then?

 

[John10]

Now what if that guidance leads to conflicting ideas regarding moral matters? How do we know who is right then?

Well the Church does summon Councils when the need arise to clarify moral matters or take an official position on regard to something not previously discussed.

If God is indeed a perfect, all powerful, all loving, all knowledgeable, all intelligent, omnipotent, omniscient Being which represents goodness itself. I would certainly trust Him to guide me in terms of moral guidance.

 

[goout]

Objective, meaning universal and only one standard. Morality, defining right or wrong.

In Christianity, morality is the evaluation of human acts in reference to an (or “the”) objective good, not merely a written standard.

And because that is not understood, these threads go round and round and round and round with people talking past one another.

 

[goout]

Wozza:

So being a Hindu is immoral? And are you saying that you need guidance?

If they believe something which we know through our Catholic Doctrine to be evil (such as abortion) they are, but not because they are Hindu, but rather because they are advocating for something which is evil.

Clearly killing an innocent baby is wrong, regardless of your religious beliefs. Of course I need guidance, that is precisely why God left me (and every other Catholic) our Catholic Church to obtain that needed guidance.

You have to be careful calling another human being “evil”.
Morality evaluates human acts. So if a person commits an act such as an abortion, that act can be evaluated as evil.
When we call a person evil we are really evaluating the character of his acts, not his intrinsic worth in God’s eyes (which is God-given, and God says “it is good”).
For a Christian God is the ultimate objective reference point with which to evaluate an act, and all other good reference points stem from that.

Even someone who does not recognized a creator can see that no evaluation works unless an objective standard is referred to. Attempts to do otherwise are simply attempts to relativize truth in favor of person whim, preference, power…which by definition is not morality.

 

[John10]

You have to be careful calling another human being “evil”.
Morality evaluates human acts. So if a person commits an act such as an abortion, that act can be evaluated as evil.
When we call a person evil we are really evaluating the character of his acts, not his intrinsic worth in God’s eyes (which is God-given, and God says “it is good”).

Agreed, meant to refer to the person’s acts not the person’s intrinsic worth.

 

[Wozza]

I would certainly trust Him to guide me in terms of moral guidance.

So do many others. Yet so many come to different opinions on any given matter.

Let’s cut to the chase, John. If God has guided you to a particular answer regarding a particular moral problem, then as you trust Him, you would be absolutely confident that you have the correct answer.

Is that correct?

 

[John10]

So do many others. Yet so many come to different opinions on any given matter.

I would disagree, because there are those who refuse to follow Catholic Church teachings, however that does not mean the Church is wrong, rather the fault is with the individuals who do not want to comply, but that does not change in any way the morality of the act.

Let’s cut to the chase, John. If God has guided you to a particular answer regarding a particular moral problem, then as you trust Him, you would be absolutely confident that you have the correct answer.

Is that correct?

Sure, however I would never think God would directly address a sinner like myself, rather I would seek assistance from the Catholic Church if I was confronted with a moral dilemma.

 

[AlNg]

How to prove objective morality?
I would also like to know this.
I don’t see how it is possible because of examples which show that there is a difference of opinion on what is right and what is wrong.

1. Drop the atom bomb on Japan. Some Catholics say is was justified, others no.
2. Torture. During the Inquisition and from the papal bull of Pope Innocent IV, torture ( with some restrictions) was said to be justified, but today it is said that it is not.
3. Slavery.
4. Burning criminals alive at the stake. Capital punishment.
5. Cursing and profane words. Some Catholics say that the use of profane words is impolite but not a sin. However, the Baltimore catechism #3 Q1239 says “The second Commandment forbids all false, rash, unjust, and unnecessary oaths, blasphemy, cursing, and profane words.”
6. Proselytism among Christians is morally wrong and a grave sin. However, the mission of the Catholic Church is to make disciples of all nations. (Matt. 28:18–20, Mark 16:14–18, Luke 24:44–49) Also: “For if I preach the gospel, it is no glory to me, for a necessity lieth upon me: for woe is unto me if I preach not the gospel” (1 Cor. 9:16).

 

[Wozza]

So do many others. Yet so many come to different opinions on any given matter.

Wozza:

Let’s cut to the chase, John. If God has guided you to a particular answer regarding a particular moral problem, then as you trust Him, you would be absolutely confident that you have the correct answer.

Is that correct?

Sure, however I would never think God would directly address a sinner like myself, rather I would seek assistance from the Catholic Church if I was confronted with a moral dilemma.

This is a confusing answer. I asked if you would be confident that you had received divine guidance and you answered ‘sure’. Yet you still need assistance.

What if the divine guidance is different to the assistance you receive?

 

[John10]

I am sure, however God has left me the Catholic Church to guide me in moral issues. I need assistance because I am not perfect, I can make a mistake and it is easy to be fooled by the Evil One.

What if the divine guidance is different to the assistance you receive?

Going to the Catholic Church is my guarantee that if I follow what they teach I can confidently say the Christian God is guiding me.

 

[Eric_Hyom]

You do know that almost all animals spend their time either killing other animals (in the most unpleasant manner imagineable) or trying to avoid being eaten.

Was that the greatest good God could imagine?

Jesus died for you, me and everyone else, it must mean that he loves each and everyone of us as he loves himself. God also paid the price for our disobedience.

Mankind lacks the power to raise the dead. But God can put every injustice right in a greater good life after death, we should not throw this opportunity away.

 

[Wozza]

Wozza:

You do know that almost all animals spend their time either killing other animals (in the most unpleasant manner imagineable) or trying to avoid being eaten.

Was that the greatest good God could imagine?

Jesus died for you, me and everyone else, it must mean that he loves each and everyone of us as he loves himself. God also paid the price for our disobedience.

Mankind lacks the power to raise the dead. But God can put every injustice right in a greater good life after death, we should not throw this opportunity away.

Sorry Eric. What did that have to do with my comment?

 

[Eric_Hyom]

Sorry Eric. What did that have to do with my comment?

An objective morality should be for the good of all mankind, it should do away with wars, murder, greed and all evil. Such a morality would have to be applied willingly and freely by all people, we are to love God; and love our neighbours as we love ourselves.

This means putting God first, our neighbour second and ourselves last. If we search for a greatest good way to apply these commandments, there should be peace on Earth.

 

[Wozza]

Wozza:

Sorry Eric. What did that have to do with my comment?

An objective morality should be for the good of all mankind, it should do away with wars, murder, greed and all evil. Such a morality would have to be applied willingly and freely by all people, we are to love God; and love our neighbours as we love ourselves.

This means putting God first, our neighbour second and ourselves last. If we search for a greatest good way to apply these commandments, there should be peace on Earth.

But we live in an imperfect world. There are no easy answers. It’s all about compromise. It’s no good loving your neighbour if he wants to bed your wife. By force if necessary.

We need a practical morality. I’m not into turning the other cheek to be honest. And if my neighbour has forced himself on my wife then the operative word will be: retribution.

You need to work that into your system somehow.