How do I refute this? (about Mary)

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eternal-productions.org/PDFS/Queen.pdf

That’s a PDF I was recently sent that alleges that the numerous apparitions of Mary are actually demonic apparitions, and that this so-called “impostor” seeks to bring about the destruction of mankind after uniting everyone under herself. They’re basically alleging that the character in these apparitions is the Whore of Babylon. I know that, as Catholics, we have an answer to everything, though I would not trust myself to try to refute this using my own knowledge. So I’m asking you to take a look and give me some solid arguments that prove that the numerous recent Marian apparitions are indeed apparitions of Mary, and not of some wicked harlot who intends to bring about chaos.
 
phoenix3212 said:
eternal-productions.org/PDFS/Queen.pdf

That’s a PDF I was recently sent that alleges that the numerous apparitions of Mary are actually demonic apparitions, and that this so-called “impostor” seeks to bring about the destruction of mankind after uniting everyone under herself. They’re basically alleging that the character in these apparitions is the Whore of Babylon. I know that, as Catholics, we have an answer to everything, though I would not trust myself to try to refute this using my own knowledge. So I’m asking you to take a look and give me some solid arguments that prove that the numerous recent Marian apparitions are indeed apparitions of Mary, and not of some wicked harlot who intends to bring about chaos.
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Can this link be opened in html? I can not open pdf files, but would be interested in the topic. I see many claims like this that are very shallow and have many holes in them.
 
I can’t open it either, but I would ask the person who sent this to you to investigate the fruits of the approved Marian apparitions, such as people returning to faith in God, healings, and the like. Ask him/her if they really think Mary, the very Mother of the Son of God could in any shape or form be a demon. And do demons encourage people to pray and submit their lives to God? None that I know of.
 
Have you tried right-clicking and doing something like “Save File As…”?
Della said:
I can’t open it either, but I would ask the person who sent this to you to investigate the fruits of the approved Marian apparitions, such as people returning to faith in God, healings, and the like. Ask him/her if they really think Mary, the very Mother of the Son of God could in any shape or form be a demon. And do demons encourage people to pray and submit their lives to God? None that I know of.
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I’ve tried that, and been told that “Satan sometimes using a truth mixed in with a lie to lead people astray.” The person I’m discussing this with is convinced that these apparitions are demonic in origin.

My (stupid) response? “Like the Reformation?”
 
The document is about 160 pages. I am currently reviewing it. To begin with, a problem that exists is that the authors mix actual Church approved apparitions with those that are not, and present them all as a satanic attempt to bring all religions, Christian and non Christian, to the Catholic Church (hence a satanic church).

This creates the functional equivalent of saying that since there are some people who are Christian and some people who claim to be Christian and lead mortally sinful lives, that this proves that those who are Christian are all leading mortally sinful lives.
 
phoenix3212 said:
eternal-productions.org/PDFS/Queen.pdf

That’s a PDF I was recently sent that alleges that the numerous apparitions of Mary are actually demonic apparitions, and that this so-called “impostor” seeks to bring about the destruction of mankind after uniting everyone under herself.

They’re basically alleging that the character in these apparitions is the Whore of Babylon. I know that, as Catholics, we have an answer to everything, though I would not trust myself to try to refute this using my own knowledge. So I’m asking you to take a look and give me some solid arguments that prove that the numerous recent Marian apparitions are indeed apparitions of Mary, and not of some wicked harlot who intends to bring about chaos.
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It’s interesting they call themselves eternal productions.

Imagine, pharisees, in the NT charged Jesus with driving out demons by the power of the prince of demons. [Mt 12:24-28] And we know what Jesus called THEM… FOOLS, blind guides, hypocrits, whitewashed tombs, full of deadmens bones. [Mt 23:16…]

Imagine what He’s going to say to the ones who call His mother a whore!!!

Mt 12:
36But I tell you that men will have to give account on the day of judgment for every careless word they have spoken. 37For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned."

Mt 7
21"Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ 23Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

Bottomline, don’t insult my mother.

Mary is in this war with Satan also.

IMO, All you’re seeing here with that web site is a prophesy taking place

Rev 12:
17 Then the dragon was angry with the woman, and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and bear testimony to Jesus

This is the woman, Mary, whose children Satan is after. This is the woman that web site insults and makes war with, and they insult me because she is MY mother too, and they insult and make war with Our Lord Jesus Christ…
 
steve_b said:
It’s interesting they call themselves eternal productions.

Imagine, pharisees, in the NT charged Jesus with driving out demons by the power of the prince of demons. [Mt 12:24-28] And we know what Jesus called THEM… FOOLS, blind guides, hypocrits, whitewashed tombs, full of deadmens bones. [Mt 23:16…]

Imagine what He’s going to say to the ones who call His mother a whore!!!

Mt 12:
36But I tell you that men will have to give account on the day of judgment for every careless word they have spoken. 37For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned."

Mt 7
21"Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ 23Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

Bottomline, don’t insult my mother.

Mary is in this war with Satan also.

IMO, All you’re seeing here with that web site is a prophesy taking place

Rev 12:
17 Then the dragon was angry with the woman, and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and bear testimony to Jesus

This is the woman, Mary, whose children Satan is after. This is the woman that web site insults and makes war with, and they insult me because she is MY mother too, and they insult and make war with Our Lord Jesus Christ…
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Thing is, they allege that the woman in these apparitions isn’t actually Mary, but rather is a demon pretending to be Mary. I’m looking for ways to prove that it’s actually Mary in these apparitions.
 
phoenix3212 said:
Thing is, they allege that the woman in these apparitions isn’t actually Mary, but rather is a demon pretending to be Mary. I’m looking for ways to prove that it’s actually Mary in these apparitions.
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Wow, looks like you’re in a tough spot. Did you try to explain to them that only the apparitions approved by the Church are the ones that we hold to actually have been Mary? Did you ask them if they knew anything about the various screening processes that are done to reports to make sure they’re true? It may be nice to do some research on that… Well, hope everything works out and that you will be able to convince your friend!!!

God Bless,
4everjustjesus
 
160 pages???!!

Would have been polite had you warned people of that first off.

I think that was a huge ommission on your part.

How about you cut and paste the relevant details and then we can see what you are driving at.:cool:
 
4everjustjesus said:
Wow, looks like you’re in a tough spot. Did you try to explain to them that only the apparitions approved by the Church are the ones that we hold to actually have been Mary? Did you ask them if they knew anything about the various screening processes that are done to reports to make sure they’re true? It may be nice to do some research on that… Well, hope everything works out and that you will be able to convince your friend!!!

God Bless,
4everjustjesus
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Nope. Maybe I should do that.

Do you know where I can find out about the screening process?
 
phoenix3212 said:
That isn’t as easy as it sounds. Their arguments are quite complex.
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Well, I guess I will simply follow the thread then. I do see many arguments about Mary that I feel are simply filled with holes. If there are specifics that come up in the thread, I will try to add thoughts at that time.
Have a peace filled day!
 
phoenix3212 said:
Have you tried right-clicking and doing something like “Save File As…”?

I’ve tried that, and been told that “Satan sometimes using a truth mixed in with a lie to lead people astray.” The person I’m discussing this with is convinced that these apparitions are demonic in origin.

My (stupid) response? “Like the Reformation?”
Click to expand...
:rotfl:

Not stupid at all! Anyhow, I’m reminded of a tale where a particular group of men we’re witnesses to a recurring apparition of Our Lady, and she demanded their worship. So enthralled were they that one of them approached the local Priest, a certain Saint, begging him to also come and see the wondrous sight.

So he went, and when the apparition, ah, appeared in the middle of the room, and demanded he bow down and worship, he pulled out a piece of the Eucharist and said, “If you are the Mother of God, then glorify your Son!”

And with a terrible shriek the demon span and disappeared, leaving the room of course with a puff of smoke and the stench of brimstone.

But, y’know, it reminds me of something I think it was Our Lord who said, about how to inquire, I think it was spirits, so as to determine if they were of God. Demons being too rebellious to humble themselves and pay the Most High homage.
 
phoenix3212 said:
Nope. Maybe I should do that.

Do you know where I can find out about the screening process?
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Good luck with that request. It will boil down to the fact that the pope approved it upon “evidence” of Bishops, etc.
 
Dtmccameron said:
:rotfl:

Not stupid at all! Anyhow, I’m reminded of** a tale **where a particular group of men we’re witnesses to a recurring apparition of Our Lady, and she demanded their worship. So enthralled were they that one of them approached the local Priest, a certain Saint, begging him to also come and see the wondrous sight.

So he went, and when the apparition, ah, appeared in the middle of the room, and demanded he bow down and worship, he pulled out a piece of the Eucharist and said, “If you are the Mother of God, then glorify your Son!”

And with a terrible shriek the demon span and disappeared, leaving the room of course with a puff of smoke and the stench of brimstone.

But, y’know, it reminds me of something I think it was Our Lord who said, about how to inquire, I think it was spirits, so as to determine if they were of God. Demons being too rebellious to humble themselves and pay the Most High homage.
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Why bring up a “tale” without backing it up with any sort of reference to it?
Then add more to it by retelling the “tale” again?
What purpose does this have if it is a tale?

Can’t people offer something substantial here we can digest instead of tales?
 
Why do sectarians attack Marian Apparitions? Because to admit these are from God would blow away their whole theology, so they have to say “They are from the devil.”

Of course that was precisely the charge that the pharisees made against Jesus - that His healing power came from the devil.

Jesus responded by saying this:
Mark3 25-26 "If a house is divided against itself, that house cannot stand. And if Satan opposes himself and is divided, he cannot stand; his end has come."

In all the approved Marian appearances She calls for prayer and repentance, and for people to follow Jesus. As Jesus teaches, Satan cannot do this.

How else are we told in the Bible to discern whether something is of God or of Satan? Actually it is very simple.

1 Cor 12.3: You know when you were pagans somehow or other you were influenced by and led astray to mute idols. Therefore I tell you that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says “Jesus be cursed”. and no one can say Jesus is Lord" except by the Holy Spirit."

At Guadeloupe Mary proclaimed Her Son, Jesus, as Lord. At Fatima, She gave the Children a new prayer: "Oh my Jesus, forgive us, save us from the fire of hell. Lead all souls to heaven, especially those who are most in need."

As Jesus said Matthew 7:15-20
15 "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thorns, or figs from thistles? 17 So, every sound tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears evil fruit. 18 A sound tree cannot bear evil fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus you will know them by their fruits

The Apparitions of Mary proclaim Jesus as Lord, they urge repentance, obedience to God, and prayer. They have produced good fruits in increased holiness, return to the Church, revival and miracles.
So using the scriptural reference for discernment, we prove that these apparitions of Mary cannot be from Satan. They must therefore be of God.
 
I’ve only skimmed the article, but I do have a few comments. Before I go on, I should recommend the book “Refuting the Attack on Mary: A Defense of Mary” by Father Mateo. It’s a good read.

One thing that I noticed in the section “RETURN OF BABY JESUS” which states the following:

“Those who follow the apparitions are aware that the Queen of
Heaven sometimes appears holding a living, breathing baby in her arms.”

I’m not aware of this, at least for Guadalupe, Lourdes, and Fatima. So that makes me skeptical.

Another thing that I would point out is that Mary always calls us to to her Son, and not to herself. So if Mary was demonic, then as Jesus says in Luke 11:17-18 "But he knew their thoughts and said to them, “Every kingdom divided against itself will be laid waste and house will fall against house. And if Satan is divided against himself, how will his kingdom stand? "

So Mary can not be demonic.

In the section “OUR GRACIOUS MOTHER”, the authors seem to be confused. The text is:

"The popular Devotions in Honor of Our Mother
of Perpetual Help underscores this fact:
Come then, to my help, dearest Mother, for I recommend myself
to thee. In thy hands I place my eternal salvation and to thee do
I entrust my soul. Count me among thy most devoted servants;
take me under thy protection, and it is enough for me. For, if thou
protect me, dear Mother, I fear nothing; not from my sins, because
thou wilt obtain for me the pardon of them; nor from the devils,
because thou are more powerful than all hell together; nor even
Jesus, my judge Himself, because by one prayer from thee he will
be appeased.166
Yet, the Bible ascribes these attributes to God alone (never once to
Mary). There are hundreds of Scriptures that describe the Lord’s great
grace, mercy and love toward those who fear Him:
The LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and
abundant in goodness and truth, Keeping mercy for thousands,
forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin (Exodus 34:6-7). "

The authors miss the main point of the novena " BECAUSE BY ONE PRAYER FROM THEE HE WILL BE APPEASED" - It’s Mary’s prayer i.e. petition for us to Jesus that He grants us mercy. This gets back to the point that Mary is the Queen Mother, where in the ancient kingdoms the Queen Mother sat on the throne next to the King, who acted as an intercessor for the people; i.e .Jer. 13:18 hints at this: “Say to the king and to the queen mother: come down from your throne; From your heads fall your magnificent crowns.” So if you know the Mary can act as an intercessor for us, the novena makes sense. It’s similar to when Protestant ask others to pray for them, they are petitioning Jesus on behalf of another.

There is no one counter argument to the article, but many. You just need to take one point at a time. You could probably find more things, but I think you get the idea.
 
phoenix3212 said:
eternal-productions.org/PDFS/Queen.pdf

That’s a PDF I was recently sent that alleges that the numerous apparitions of Mary are actually demonic apparitions, and that this so-called “impostor” seeks to bring about the destruction of mankind after uniting everyone under herself. They’re basically alleging that the character in these apparitions is the Whore of Babylon. I know that, as Catholics, we have an answer to everything, though I would not trust myself to try to refute this using my own knowledge. So I’m asking you to take a look and give me some solid arguments that prove that the numerous recent Marian apparitions are indeed apparitions of Mary, and not of some wicked harlot who intends to bring about chaos.
Click to expand...
Well, their first problem is they don’t heed the warning of Our Lord:

“But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of an eternal sin.” (Mark 3:29)

These miracles, which the Church has declared to be “supernatural”, were accomplished by the power of the Holy Spirit. So those who say they are “demonic” are doing exactly what the Pharisees and scribes did - attributing the work of God to Satan - blaspheming the Holy Spirit. Hopefully they do so in ignorance, but then again…

“There will be signs in the sun, moon and stars.” - Jesus Christ (Luke 21:25)

Can the devil make the sun “dance”? Not from what God has told us. But God can! And there are numerous other miracles that they could investigate, including many that they can see for themselves right now. And they should also remember:

“In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams.” (Acts 2:17)

So why should they be surprised that children are prophesying?

But you want to “prove” that they are actually Mary? Of course, you will not be able to prove it. But there are many ways of “testing the spirits” (1 John 4:1). And the Church has 2000 years experience of doing just that, but don’t try and find out how they do it! 😉 But I’ll give you one little sign that I noticed. In the true apparition of Mary at Zeitun, Egypt, a witness mentioned in passing that he could see Our Lady’s mantle swaying in the wind. But in the false apparition (“not supernatural”) of Garabandal, one of the seers said that she reached out to touch Mary and there was nothing there. Do you see the difference? If you, or anyone, wants to study these things in truth, I would recommend Rick Salbato’s website. God bless.
 
You might want to point out to your friend that even APPROVED Marian apparitions are not required to be believed or accepted by the faithful.
 
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