How Do I Respond to This? (Over Salvation)

  • Thread starter Thread starter MrZetterlund
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
M

MrZetterlund

Guest
The most crucial difference between Catholics and “Bible Christians” is on the issue of salvation. Catholics view salvation almost entirely as a process, while Christians view salvation as both a completed status and a process. Catholics see themselves as “being saved,” while Christians view themselves as “having been saved.” 1 Corinthians 1:2 tells us, “…to those sanctified in Christ Jesus and called to be holy…” The words “sanctified” and “holy” come from the same Greek root. This verse is declaring that Christians are both sanctified and called to be sanctified. The Bible presents salvation as a gift that is received the moment a person places faith in Jesus Christ as Savior (John 3:16). When a person receives Christ as Savior, he/she is justified (declared righteous – Romans 5:9), redeemed (rescued from slavery to sin – 1 Peter 1:18), reconciled (achieving peace with God – Romans 5:1), sanctified (set apart for God’s purposes – 1 Corinthians 6:11), and born again as a new creation (1 Peter 1:23; 2 Corinthians 5:17). Each of these are accomplished facts that are fully received at the moment of salvation. Christians are then called to live, practically (called to be holy), what is already true, positionally (sanctified).
 
The most crucial difference between Catholics and “Bible Christians” is on the issue of salvation. **Catholics view salvation almost entirely as a process, while Christians view salvation as both a completed status and a process. Catholics see themselves as “being saved,” while Christians view themselves as “having been saved.” **1 Corinthians 1:2 tells us, “…to those sanctified in Christ Jesus and called to be holy…” The words “sanctified” and “holy” come from the same Greek root. This verse is declaring that Christians are both sanctified and called to be sanctified. The Bible presents salvation as a gift that is received the moment a person places faith in Jesus Christ as Savior (John 3:16). When a person receives Christ as Savior, he/she is justified (declared righteous – Romans 5:9), redeemed (rescued from slavery to sin – 1 Peter 1:18), reconciled (achieving peace with God – Romans 5:1), sanctified (set apart for God’s purposes – 1 Corinthians 6:11), and born again as a new creation (1 Peter 1:23; 2 Corinthians 5:17). Each of these are accomplished facts that are fully received at the moment of salvation. Christians are then called to live, practically (called to be holy), what is already true, positionally (sanctified).
This is actually untrue, in relation to the bolded words. Catholics do believe that we are in the process of being saved, but also that we are saved, and that we will be saved.

(From the site www.catholicbible101.com)

Here are some verses that do indicate that salvation occurs in our past:

*Romans 8:22-24: We know that the whole creation has been groaning in travail together until now; and not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the first fruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. For in this hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees?

Ephesians 2:4-8: But God, who is rich in mercy, out of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with him, and made us sit with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God.*

But then here are some verses that indicate that salvation is happening now:

*2 Corinthians 2:15: For we are the aroma of Christ to God among those who are being saved and among those who are perishing, *
*Phillipians 2:12: Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;

1 Peter 3:21: Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,*

And here are some verses which indicate that salvation occurs in the future:

*Romans 5:9-10: Since, therefore, we are now justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life.

1 Corinthians 3:12-15: Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

Matthew 24:13: But he who endures to the end will be saved. *

Ultimately, I’m still unsure what the point of your post is, though.
 
Catholics are Christians. We are the original Christians. Master franchise. Deal with it.
 
Catholics are Christians. We are the original Christians. Master franchise. Deal with it.
This has been debated for centuries. I don’t think labeling each other as christian or not benefits anyone. Because of our sinful pride, wars have actually been started over this.

The truth is, both Catholics and Evangelicals desire to follow Christ, and do so the best way they know how. However, they have very different views when it comes to how we get to heaven and not have to go to hell. In years past, these views tended to be mutually exclusive. That made the stakes very high. These days, people tend to be more tolerant of other’s beliefs.

Is that a good thing? I don’t know… It doesn’t matter what we think. The only thing that matters is what God thinks.

I believe what the OP was addressing was the differences between Roman Catholics and Evangelicals when it comes to how we are made “right” with God. The most important thing we can do in this life, next to loving God, is to know WHAT we believe and WHY we believe it!

*If there is ONE thing we have to get right, it’s this:
*Knowing that Jesus Christ was God in the flesh, who gave his life for the sins of the world, rose again three days later defeating death, ascended into Heaven and sits at the right hand of God Almighty… and he’s coming back except the next time it will be for the judgement… and those who don’t believe in Him and repent will get a first hand close up look at his wrath!

😉

“God made him (Jesus) who had no sin (Jesus never sinned) to be sin for us, (We have sins and Jesus took them to the cross) so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.” (2 Cor 5:21)
 
The most crucial difference between Catholics and “Bible Christians” is on the issue of salvation. Catholics view salvation almost entirely as a process, while Christians view salvation as both a completed status and a process. Catholics see themselves as “being saved,” while Christians view themselves as “having been saved.” 1 Corinthians 1:2 tells us, “…to those sanctified in Christ Jesus and called to be holy…” The words “sanctified” and “holy” come from the same Greek root. This verse is declaring that Christians are both sanctified and called to be sanctified. The Bible presents salvation as a gift that is received the moment a person places faith in Jesus Christ as Savior (John 3:16). When a person receives Christ as Savior, he/she is justified (declared righteous – Romans 5:9), redeemed (rescued from slavery to sin – 1 Peter 1:18), reconciled (achieving peace with God – Romans 5:1), sanctified (set apart for God’s purposes – 1 Corinthians 6:11), and born again as a new creation (1 Peter 1:23; 2 Corinthians 5:17). Each of these are accomplished facts that are fully received at the moment of salvation. Christians are then called to live, practically (called to be holy), what is already true, positionally (sanctified).
IMO, the problem arises because of our different definitions/understanding of what (sanctifying/saving/deifying) GRACE is.
 
IMO, the problem arises because of our different definitions/understanding of what (sanctifying/saving/deifying) GRACE is.
And I think there’s also a very different understanding of what constitutes “salvation.” IMO the average Bible Christian puts salvation in terms of one’s ultimate destiny in heaven or hell. I think the average Catholic thinks of salvation more holistically–in terms of all the things that God has done and is doing to save humanity.
 
The most crucial difference between Catholics and “Bible Christians” is on the issue of salvation. Catholics view salvation almost entirely as a process, while Christians view salvation as both a completed status and a process. Catholics see themselves as “being saved,” while Christians view themselves as “having been saved.” 1 Corinthians 1:2 tells us, “…to those sanctified in Christ Jesus and called to be holy…” The words “sanctified” and “holy” come from the same Greek root. This verse is declaring that Christians are both sanctified and called to be sanctified. The Bible presents salvation as a gift that is received the moment a person places faith in Jesus Christ as Savior (John 3:16). When a person receives Christ as Savior, he/she is justified (declared righteous – Romans 5:9), redeemed (rescued from slavery to sin – 1 Peter 1:18), reconciled (achieving peace with God – Romans 5:1), sanctified (set apart for God’s purposes – 1 Corinthians 6:11), and born again as a new creation (1 Peter 1:23; 2 Corinthians 5:17). Each of these are accomplished facts that are fully received at the moment of salvation. Christians are then called to live, practically (called to be holy), what is already true, positionally (sanctified).
see Catechism of the Catholic Church 161-169
 
This has been debated for centuries. I don’t think labeling each other as christian or not benefits anyone. Because of our sinful pride, wars have actually been started over this.

The truth is, both Catholics and Evangelicals desire to follow Christ, and do so the best way they know how. However, they have very different views when it comes to how we get to heaven and not have to go to hell. In years past, these views tended to be mutually exclusive. That made the stakes very high. These days, people tend to be more tolerant of other’s beliefs.

Is that a good thing? I don’t know… It doesn’t matter what we think. The only thing that matters is what God thinks.

I believe what the OP was addressing was the differences between Roman Catholics and Evangelicals when it comes to how we are made “right” with God. The most important thing we can do in this life, next to loving God, is to know WHAT we believe and WHY we believe it!

If there is ONE thing we have to get right, it’s this:
Knowing that Jesus Christ was God in the flesh, who gave his life for the sins of the world, rose again three days later defeating death, ascended into Heaven and sits at the right hand of God Almighty… and he’s coming back except the next time it will be for the judgement… and those who don’t believe in Him and repent will get a first hand close up look at his wrath!

😉

“God made him (Jesus) who had no sin (Jesus never sinned) to be sin for us, (We have sins and Jesus took them to the cross) so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.” (2 Cor 5:21)
Yes perhaps my post was a bit uncharitable. However, the OP’s formulation is clearly designed to cast aspersions on my Faith. I live in an area of the country where evangelicals are everywhere. I have been told in no uncertain terms they hold Catholics to be little more than a cult. You can choose to ignore this fact. I cannot. I also do not agree that people are more tolerant of other peoples religious views. Have read any of the comments that many make on this forum and in the wider society towards Muslims? Towards Jews? Hindus? etc. I get sick and tired of the media constantly pushing a viewpoint of scripture and Chritianity in general that is centered on an evangelical interpretation. I wholly disagree with their interpretations. I stand by my statements. Thanks for the feedback.
 
…
…
Each of these are accomplished facts that are fully received at the moment of salvation. Christians are then called to live, practically (called to be holy), what is already true, positionally (sanctified).
MrZetterlund in Christ,

I have heard your conclusion expressed by others a few times before, but no one has ever been able to show me, by way of scripture, that there is “any” differentiations concerning sanctification. The idea of positional sanctification versus being and living a holy life is IMHO a fiction that is an outcome of a previously established doctrine rather than scripture.

Perhaps the following analogy will be helpful:

A man and woman meet one another, date for a reasonable length of time, and then fall in love. They are, as you might say. “positionally” in love with one another. Later, circumstances cause them to live apart and other extenuating circumstances come into play that begin to seriously hinder their relationship. Eventually, the relationship flounders and they go their separate ways. Clearly, in the end they are no longer in love with one another, and the alleged “positional” sense of their being in love desolve as well. They are either in love, or they are not in love. The same applies to sanctification. You are either in a state of sanctification or you are not. Our relationship with God in terms of sanctification is easily understood in terms of our love of God. The analogy of the love between the man and the woman speaks to the reality of their relationship. So also does the love we have, or the lack thereof, for God. Jesus even warns us in the gospels about this. In Matthew 24:11-13 we read the following:
And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. And because wickedness is multiplied, most men’s love will grow cold. But he who endures to the end will be saved.
There simply is no logical reason by way of scripture to assume that:
  1. There is any differentiations to made in terms of sanctification. Positional versus practical/experiential sanctification is simply a fiction.
  2. There is no reason to assume that sanctification is once and for all permanent in nature. Scripture demonstrates over and over that some people sometimes go from holy to evil, while others grow in holiness and in their love of God.
God bless.
 
For the OP,

This was my response in another thread where someone asked the difference between the Catholic view and the Protestant view of salvation. Because of the length, I will post it in two successive posts:

Before the fall by Adam and Eve, man was “at one” with God. By sinning, man’s “oneness” with God was lost and although it COULD have been “taken care of” in whichever way God chose (after all, He is God), God “reacted” in a completely understandable manner:
  1. Harming God, an infinitely loving being, no matter WHO caused the harm, resulted in an INFINITE harm because of who the harm affected.
  2. God, as mentioned above, could have simply said, if Adam and Eve had sincerely repented (instead of Adam passing the buck to Eve, and then Eve passing the buck to the serpent), “okay - apology accepted; you are back in my good graces”. But let’s face it - that would have been too easy FOR MAN and would not have been indicative of how hurt God was, nor would it have given man a sense for how much God really wanted man to be back with him.
  3. God decided to “erase” the infinite harm in the only way that it could PROPERLY be erased: through an infinite sacrifice. As man, is, well, just “man”, man alone could not offer an INFINITE sacrifice that could benefit ALL mankind, both past and future. But God incarnate could - through suffering and death. Remember: we are talking about balancing out an infinite harm with an infinite “apology/sacrifice” performed on behalf of man. Thus, by becoming man, God effectively “killed two birds with one stone”: He balanced the injustice done to Him by man’s sinful ways (which God certainly did not deserve), but he did so at great “hurt” to himself through the death of his Son (which showed just how much God loved man - “look at what I am willing to put my only Son through, simply because I love you, mankind, and want you to be one with me again”.
  4. A short note: by sinning, heaven was closed, and could not be reopened until the breach was sealed. NO ONE entered heaven until Jesus’s death on the cross.
  5. Catholics (and other like-minded theologically rooted religions) “divide” God’s plan of salvation of man into two things: redemption and salvation. As outlined above, man could NOT do anything to effect his own redemption. Note that redemption is from the root “redeem” - to buy back. Jesus’s death was the “purchase price” to re-open heaven for those deserving entry.
What separates Catholics, et al., from most Protestants is that Protestants do not divide God’s plan into redemption and salvation - they consider them either the same or combined.

Catholics, et al., however, view SALVATION as the part of God’s salvific plan in which man CAN play a role - by cooperating with God and living a life in an attempt to conform to God’s chosen way.

Sum

Man and God were “at one” in the beginning. When mankind sinned, they were no longer “at one” with God. God sought to heal that breach at the appropriate time by sending his only begotten son, Jesus to die - which was known by us as a REDEMPTIVE death. The death on the cross was redemptive in the sense that it bought back what had been lost: being “at one” with God.

“At one” = “atone”. Christ’s death atoned for man’s sin, and thus man was again possible to be at one with God again, provided he cooperated with God.

Thus, we are alike with Protestants in that Christ’s death was something done that man could NEVER have done to effect the same result. But we are unlike Protestants in that we still must cooperate with God in order to effect the remaining part of the salvific plan: “working out our salvation with fear and trembling”.

cont’d
 
Addendum: I try to explain it this way to my kids:

Suppose they negligently break my neighbor’s window with a baseball. They sincerely apologize for doing so, and the neighbor accepts their apology.

Is the incident over?

Technically, no. The HARM (broken window) is still present. Only the act was forgiven. To make the harm COMPLETELY “right”, my children would have to repair the window at their expense. Only then would the situation be “put right”.

This is an example I also use when “debating” Protestants who claim that all one need do is say, “I am sorry” and that is it. No, it is not “it”. We must walk in life like Christ (or rather, as close as possible - we can never walk like Christ, as that is impossible) IN ADDITION to being sorry for our wayward ways.

Thus: we have to be sorry AND fix the wrong.

Two prongs . . .

I hope this makes sense and helps.

Regards,

Sam
 
The most crucial difference between Catholics and “Bible Christians” is on the issue of salvation. Catholics view salvation almost entirely as a process, while Christians view salvation as both a completed status and a process. Catholics see themselves as “being saved,” while Christians view themselves as “having been saved.” 1 Corinthians 1:2 tells us, “…to those sanctified in Christ Jesus and called to be holy…” The words “sanctified” and “holy” come from the same Greek root. This verse is declaring that Christians are both sanctified and called to be sanctified. The Bible presents salvation as a gift that is received the moment a person places faith in Jesus Christ as Savior (John 3:16). When a person receives Christ as Savior, he/she is justified (declared righteous – Romans 5:9), redeemed (rescued from slavery to sin – 1 Peter 1:18), reconciled (achieving peace with God – Romans 5:1), sanctified (set apart for God’s purposes – 1 Corinthians 6:11), and born again as a new creation (1 Peter 1:23; 2 Corinthians 5:17). Each of these are accomplished facts that are fully received at the moment of salvation. Christians are then called to live, practically (called to be holy), what is already true, positionally (sanctified).
You aren’t going to get a good knowledge of this from the necessarily abreviated that can be don on a forum with posts. I suggest the following
“http://www.familychristian.com/shop... Akin, Regis Martin-The Salvation Controversy”

Please let us know what you think when you finish.

We all wish you a very Blessed and Merry Christmas.

Yours in Christ.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top