How do I respond to this pro abortion argument?

[iamme]

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Just a question-how many of us were once in the womb?

yeah, thats a great point there!
if only i could figure out what its supposed to be.

 

[survive]

not everyone here agrees with your first point…

I know. I’ve studied psychology.

rejecting something that has been forced on you through means (means youve lived through) indeed gives you back control and power.

Not necessarily.

and this topic is obviously lost on all of you who cant even concede that an embryo is not a baby, a fetus could be considered a baby, but just as easily might not be…

There is no possible rational basis for denying that an embryo or fetus is a baby.

and im truly sorry about your rape, and im saddened further that you would try to deny that anything i said could be true in regards to it.

I’m saddened that you think two wrongs make a right or that it is at all healing to become enmeshed in a web of violence after being a victim of violence.

 

[warpspeedpetey]

im sorry, but that is the most ridiculous analogy i have ever heard.
to get pregnant is a choice, and it is a decision that should be made after serious consideration, even tho in this day and age, it isnt always the case. when raped, you have all choice and control taken from you. perhaps this girl NEVER wanted to have a child, in any case whatsoever. what i find odd is that she wasnt given the morning after pill by the hospital, as is standard procedure, but with the op being as vague as it was, we wont know. while i applaud those who would keep the baby if they were to get pregnant after being thrown to the ground, beaten, and then violated in the cruelest of ways, i would never think that getting an abortion is unreasonable in that case.

however, in response to the op, unless youre just wanting to argue, i wouldnt respond at all, and remove myself from the discussion.

i can never think of a case when murdering an innocent child is ok. ever.

it simply does not matter what she wants. murder is murder is murder, no matter how unreasonable it may seem, being the victim of a horrendous crime does not somehow grant the right to commit murder.

 

[iamme]

i can never think of a case when murdering an innocent child is ok. ever.

it simply does not matter what she wants. murder is murder is murder, no matter how unreasonable it may seem, being the victim of a horrendous crime does not somehow grant the right to commit murder.

sure it does

 

[williamric]

and it maight get treated like it was the result of a rape, and be neglected, or beaten and live on to become a horrible human being. why do you insist on playing “what ifs”?

and having an abortion would not change the fact that she was raped, true, but it would give her some of the control she lost back, and it would mean that she is no longer pregnant because someone forced her to become pregnant.

Thats irrelevant… Abortion is either right or wrong, the circumstance (rape) makes no difference…

A fetus either has enough value to save it, or it doesn’t… Its really that simple, this emotionalism should have no place in this debate…

If you disagree that a fetus has value then you will think abortion is okay, and then it will ALWAYS be okay… If you think a fetus has value then you will not think abortion is okay, and you will never think its okay, regardless of the circumstances.

If I said that I was gonna kill the person who murdered my brother YOU wouldn’t say, “well its okay because he was upset, etc etc”…You would say, “murder is wrong, taking the law into yours own hands is wrong” Again, the situation is irrelevant, the fact that my brother was murdered is irrelevant, it woulds still be wrong for me to murder in this situation…

Don’t bring factors into this debate that are irrelevant. Your position is either that a fetus has value or it doesn’t…

 

[warpspeedpetey]

sure it does

how does it then? the entire point of the criminal legal system is prevent vigilante style justice. to protect the innocent and punish the guilty. what you are saying seems to be a perversion of what we would normally consider a moral way in which to carry out justice.

if some one kills my mother, as much as i may wish to kill them in return, it is not my right to do so, even if i cannot restrain myself, i would still be liable for the murder committed in revenge.

so, how does being raped give her the right to murder a child? if she murdered her rapist after the act, she would still be prosecuted for that murder.

 

[iamme]

so, how does being raped give her the right to murder a child?

BECAUSE
IT
IS
LEGAL

and if she kills her rapist after shes raped, it would be investigated, and more than likely thrown out, unless youre talking about years later, when she could easily get a half decent lawyer to say she snapped, and then at least get jury nullification.

but yes, lets keep comparing crimes to something completely legal, because that is a totally rational and sensible thing to do!

 

[survive]

BECAUSE
IT
IS
LEGAL

This is circular reasoning. The policy of legalizing it is exactly what we are discussing. To say something ought to remain legal because it’s a right and is a right because it’s legal is a circular argument, and demonstrates no support of itself.

 

[iamme]

Thats irrelevant… Abortion is either right or wrong, the circumstance (rape) makes no difference…

A fetus either has enough value to save it, or it doesn’t… Its really that simple, this emotionalism should have no place in this debate…

If you disagree that a fetus has value then you will think abortion is okay, and then it will ALWAYS be okay… If you think a fetus has value then you will not think abortion is okay, and you will never think its okay, regardless of the circumstances.

If I said that I was gonna kill the person who murdered my brother YOU wouldn’t say, “well its okay because he was upset, etc etc”…You would say, “murder is wrong, taking the law into yours own hands is wrong” Again, the situation is irrelevant, the fact that my brother was murdered is irrelevant, it woulds still be wrong for me to murder in this situation…

Don’t bring factors into this debate that are irrelevant. Your position is either that a fetus has value or it doesn’t…

ive made my stance on this clear. i dont agree that people should get abortions willy nilly, but its legal, and a womans right to do so if she wishes.
the onloy one being irrelevant here, is YOU.
murder and abortion arent the same thing.
abortion is legal, murder isnt.
are you incapable of understanding the basics of law?

 

[iamme]

This is circular reasoning. The policy of legalizing it is exactly what we are discussing. To say something ought to remain legal because it’s a right and is a right because it’s legal is a circular argument, and demonstrates no support of itself.

yours is circular arguement.
its wrong because god says its wrong. its murder because god says its murder. its a baby because its semen and an egg. its a baby because its an embryo. its a baby because it shows thought in the third trimester.

if it is legal and a right, then yes, it should remain a right, because we do not take rights away in this country, unless a church gives millions of dollars to do so.

yknow, im really tired of sharing a water fountain with blacks, it isnt right. i think we need to segregate, and take away their rights.

if YOU dont agree with abortion, then DONT HAVE AN ABORTION!

 

[survive]

ive made my stance on this clear. i dont agree that people should get abortions willy nilly, but its legal, and a womans right to do so if she wishes.
the onloy one being irrelevant here, is YOU.
murder and abortion arent the same thing.
abortion is legal, murder isnt.
are you incapable of understanding the basics of law?

I think you’re the one missing the point. We know what the law is. We are talking about changing the law so that it will reflect justice. The difference between abortion and murder is an arbitrary age limit a nondemocratic court decision drew through every human being’s inalienable right to life.

 

[williamric]

ive made my stance on this clear. i dont agree that people should get abortions willy nilly, but its legal, and a womans right to do so if she wishes.
the onloy one being irrelevant here, is YOU.
murder and abortion arent the same thing.
abortion is legal, murder isnt.
are you incapable of understanding the basics of law?

Maybe you should take the time to evaluate your position…

I never once mentioned the legality of the action…Read again:

murder is wrong, taking the law into yours own hands is wrong

I said “wrong” not illegal…

What justification do you have for your position that woman shouldn’t get abortions “willy-nilly”? You either think abortion is okay, or you don’t, what does "willy-nilly"ness have to do with it?

the onloy one being irrelevant here, is YOU

Rather then get all sensitive, why don’t you take the time to make a proper reply… My argument was that the circumstances of an abortion are irrelevant. Let me break this down for you in simple terms:

1. The thread is about rape as a justification for abortion
2. My argument was that the circumstances don’t make a difference

Irrelevant? Sure

 

[williamric]

I think you’re the one missing the point. We know what the law is. We are talking about changing the law so that it will reflect justice. The difference between abortion and murder is an arbitrary age limit a nondemocratic court decision drew through every human being’s inalienable right to life.

Survive whilst he is most definitely missing the point, IMHO, the most sound way of dealing with this OP is to admit that the circumstances of an abortion don’t make a difference… As I outlined in my previous posts…

I then used an example of murder (with no intention of discussing legality) and it obviously went completely over IAM’s head… The point of the example is that mitigating circumstances, i.e. rape and murder, don’t make a difference to the morality of a decision

 

[iamme]

Maybe you should take the time to evaluate your position…

I never once mentioned the legality of the action…Read again:

I said “wrong” not illegal…

What justification do you have for your position that woman shouldn’t get abortions “willy-nilly”? You either think abortion is okay, or you don’t, what does "willy-nilly"ness have to do with it?

my justification for for abortions doesnt exist, i can have one. i said that its a womans choice, for me, she doesnt need justification, because its her choice. i personally do not consider a fetus to be a human being, therefore i think a woman should be able to choose to have an abortion whenever she wants, tho i think it should only be a last resort, and that i dont agree with having an abortion just because you “dont wanna have a kid, but dont mind sleeping around unprotected”, willy nilly… abortion is not a form of birthcontrol, in other words. i therefore, do not think it is murder, and using the name of a crime for the word abortion, is wrong, hence me saying abortion is legal, legal=right.

Rather then get all sensitive, why don’t you take the time to make a proper reply… My argument was that the circumstances of an abortion are irrelevant. Let me break this down for you in simple terms:

1. The thread is about rape as a justification for abortion
2. My argument was that the circumstances don’t make a difference

Irrelevant? Sure

fine, heres my simple response.

1. there doesnt need to be a justification for abortion, because it is legal.
2. circumstances of rape? youve been all over dude, so im just trying to figure out what circumstances, but rape? youre right, they dont make a difference. abortion is legal, so get one of a guy pins you down, whips it out, violates you, and then takes off, leaving you with the legacy of one of your most crippling nightmares of a situation.

 

[iamme]

I then used an example of murder (with no intention of discussing legality) and it obviously went completely over IAM’s head… The point of the example is that mitigating circumstances, i.e. rape and murder, don’t make a difference to the morality of a decision

no, you were saying abortion is murder, so it doesnt matter if you got pregnant through rape, then your legal right is still murder. i said no its not, because abortion is legal, since obviously the intent are two very different thingsand being that abortion is legal, when the “circimstance” (thats what ill call rape from now on, i think, the ladies will love it!) is legal, there really is no moral question.

 

[williamric]

my justification for for abortions doesnt exist, i can have one. i said that its a womans choice, for me, she doesnt need justification, because its her choice. i personally do not consider a fetus to be a human being, therefore i think a woman should be able to choose to have an abortion whenever she wants, tho i think it should only be a last resort, and that i dont agree with having an abortion just because you “dont wanna have a kid, but dont mind sleeping around unprotected”, willy nilly… abortion is not a form of birthcontrol, in other words. i therefore, do not think it is murder, and using the name of a crime for the word abortion, is wrong, hence me saying abortion is legal, legal=right.

Firstly,

Legal = right?? lol…now you are losing the plot IAM… did you know:

1. It used to be legal to shoot aboriginies in Australia (wsws.org/articles/1999/sep1999/geno-s07.shtml)
2. It used to be legal for me to racially taunt, insult and beat black people in South Africa
3. It IS legal for my company to take my job away from me because I’m white and give it to an African person with no qualification

Don’t tell me legal = right, because that’s laughable…

Secondly,

This thread was never about the legality or legal justification…It was about justification from rape, so please stick to the topic at hand. Saying its legal = right, is irrelevant to this thread…

Thirdly, you position is inconsistent:
You said, “i personally do not consider a fetus to be a human being” (Implied in this statement is basically that the fetus does not have value and is therefore not worth protecting)

Then you said, “and that i dont agree with having an abortion just because you “dont wanna have a kid, but dont mind sleeping around unprotected””…

Well your position is completely inconsistent, if a fetus has no value then it doesn’t matter how many times you get an abortion or for what reason you get an abortion…

Again, make up your mind, either abortion is always right or its always wrong… stop sitting on the fence…

fine, heres my simple response.

1. there doesnt need to be a justification for abortion, because it is legal.

Again, irrelevant to this thread…

1. circumstances of rape? youve been all over dude, so im just trying to figure out what circumstances, but rape? youre right, they dont make a difference. abortion is legal, so get one of a guy pins you down, whips it out, violates you, and then takes off, leaving you with the legacy of one of your most crippling nightmares of a situation.

I have no idea what you are talking about here?

 

[williamric]

no, you were saying abortion is murder, so it doesnt matter if you got pregnant through rape, then your legal right is still murder. i said no its not, because abortion is legal, since obviously the intent are two very different thingsand being that abortion is legal, when the “circimstance” (thats what ill call rape from now on, i think, the ladies will love it!) is legal, there really is no moral question.

ummm…sorry??? I was saying abortion is murder?? Funny because I don’t remember ever saying that in my post:

Thats irrelevant… Abortion is either right or wrong, the circumstance (rape) makes no difference…

A fetus either has enough value to save it, or it doesn’t… Its really that simple, this emotionalism should have no place in this debate…

If you disagree that a fetus has value then you will think abortion is okay, and then it will ALWAYS be okay… If you think a fetus has value then you will not think abortion is okay, and you will never think its okay, regardless of the circumstances.

If I said that I was gonna kill the person who murdered my brother YOU wouldn’t say, “well its okay because he was upset, etc etc”…You would say, “murder is wrong, taking the law into yours own hands is wrong” Again, the situation is irrelevant, the fact that my brother was murdered is irrelevant, it woulds still be wrong for me to murder in this situation…

Don’t bring factors into this debate that are irrelevant. Your position is either that a fetus has value or it doesn’t…

See the bold paragraph…please read it again…

1. I never said abortion is murder
2. I was quite clearly making a comparison about circumstance… I never compared murder and abortion, and made a circumstantial comparison, and showed how, in a hypothetical situation involving murder, mitigating factors (rape, murder) would not act as moral justification…

 

[iamme]

Again, make up your mind, either abortion is always right or its always wrong… stop sitting on the fence…

make up my mind?
how can you even see my point, way up there in the your tower of condescension?
there are no absolutes in life, and people needing them are sad.
abortions legal
abortion are only relevant to women
having an abortion is a womens choice

none of those things apply to me, so i dont care if its right or wrong. i dont care if women are aborting babies. i dont. would it be nice if they didnt, if they could just give it up for adoption instead? sure it would, but thats not how things are.

also, youd think me repeating that abortion doesnt need justification would clue you in on whether or not i thought it was wrong, but there, i hope spelling it out for you in psarkly colors made it clear.

no mateer, im done with this fun little gang up on the immoral jerk who doesnt hink like us, so hes wrong thing yall had going. way to be open minded and not at all exclusionary.

 

[williamric]

make up my mind?
how can you even see my point, way up there in the your tower of condescension?

Don’t hate it till you try it

there are no absolutes in life, and people needing them are sad.

No absolutes? Yes there most definitely are absolutes… Either G-d exists or He doesn’t… Thats one absolute…

abortions legal
abortion are only relevant to women
having an abortion is a womens choice

Yes, legally its a womans choice, however, as I have been at pains to explain, this thread is not about legal justification…

none of those things apply to me, so i dont care if its right or wrong. i dont care if women are aborting babies. i dont. would it be nice if they didnt, if they could just give it up for adoption instead? sure it would, but thats not how things are.

It shouldn’t make a difference to you… If you don’t care whether woman get abortion then why would you want them to give the children up for adoption?

also, youd think me repeating that abortion doesnt need justification would clue you in on whether or not i thought it was wrong, but there, i hope spelling it out for you in psarkly colors made it clear.

no mateer, im done with this fun little gang up on the immoral jerk who doesnt hink like us, so hes wrong thing yall had going. way to be open minded and not at all exclusionary.

Ohh stop being so dramatic, its just a discussion board. I have no bad feelings about you, and I don’t mind you voicing your opinion…but don’t expect me to give in when you haven’t yet addressed the discussion properly

 

[iamme]

If you don’t care whether woman get abortion then why would you want them to give the children up for adoption?

i address only this, because i stand by everything else i said.
its simple: i was adopted