How do I turn the table on atheists?

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Right away I want to point out that I am not suggesting that all animals consciously conceptualise the world, especially not in mathematical terms. I suspect you are mentioning conscious conceptualisation along with simply having concepts because it is the more difficult thing to show. Nevertheless, even inherited and non-conscious concepts may be malleable and affected by learning, meaning that the bat might re-conceptualise its idea of space, if it does misjudge the reflected sounds of impending walls. The issue is more that animals must filter their perceptions, else they would be overwhelmed. Each animal needs some perceptions for certain purposes, and it must surely have concepts which serve to prioritise and schematise groups of perceptions so that it knows when to perform necessary actions. If the parameters and concepts are not true, then it has a mistaken view of the world relative to its needs, and it fails to achieve something important - catching prey, avoiding predators etc etc. Where you describe ‘instinct’, I think you also cover concepts, without realising it. I’ll give you more later…
 
We can train a primate to associate the word ‘banana’ with a yellow fruit so that every time we say the word he gets the item. But, the primate can not conceptualize the nutritional value of a banana contrasted with a mango and identify that the banana is higher in potassium.

You can’t be sure, the banana might taste more potassiumy than mango
 
But, you know, I really do not see how any of this has any application to atheists. I really am not aware of any life forms besides some few men (and, women, too :D) actually denying that they have been created by God.
:confused:
 
Hi, Bobber90,

Actually, what I would like you to provide is documentation that supports your position that animals conceptualize. The post you provided is simply unsupported speculation with several ‘may’ and ‘if’ type words that only enhance ambiguity… 😉 This is the second time I am asking for references to support your claim - if you can not provide them, then just say so… or just continue not to provide them… I can take a hint… 😃

But, far more important than this - is just how do you plan on weaving this back into the atheist view?

God bless
Right away I want to point out that I am not suggesting that all animals consciously conceptualise the world, especially not in mathematical terms. I suspect you are mentioning conscious conceptualisation along with simply having concepts because it is the more difficult thing to show. Nevertheless, even inherited and non-conscious concepts may be malleable and affected by learning, meaning that the bat might re-conceptualise its idea of space, if it does misjudge the reflected sounds of impending walls. The issue is more that animals must filter their perceptions, else they would be overwhelmed. Each animal needs some perceptions for certain purposes, and it must surely have concepts which serve to prioritise and schematise groups of perceptions so that it knows when to perform necessary actions. If the parameters and concepts are not true, then it has a mistaken view of the world relative to its needs, and it fails to achieve something important - catching prey, avoiding predators etc etc. Where you describe ‘instinct’, I think you also cover concepts, without realising it. I’ll give you more later…
 
Hi, Bobber90,

Actually, what I would like you to provide is documentation that supports your position that animals conceptualize. The post you provided is simply unsupported speculation with several ‘may’ and ‘if’ type words that only enhance ambiguity… 😉 This is the second time I am asking for references to support your claim - if you can not provide them, then just say so… or just continue not to provide them… I can take a hint… 😃

But, far more important than this - is just how do you plan on weaving this back into the atheist view?

God bless
Another very interesting and well referenced article I found - if you’re genuinely interested in the research that’s out there - google is your friend 😉

logicallearning.net/cogprimates.html

Sarah x 🙂
 
Hi, Bobber90,

Actually, what I would like you to provide is documentation that supports your position that animals conceptualize. The post you provided is simply unsupported speculation with several ‘may’ and ‘if’ type words that only enhance ambiguity… 😉 This is the second time I am asking for references to support your claim - if you can not provide them, then just say so… or just continue not to provide them… I can take a hint… 😃

But, far more important than this - is just how do you plan on weaving this back into the atheist view?

God bless
Again, I am not going to provide evidence that animals consciously conceptualise things, as I am talking about non-conscious concepts. All I need to say I have said - it comes down to the non-behaviouristic interpretation of the evidence of animal life. There is but a small difference in saying that animals act out of instinct, or that they act through the use of instinctual concepts, and I favour the latter. The point of bringing this up was merely an expansion on the theme of truth, as I had to admit that true linguistic statements are not necessary for the survival of the fittest, but true concepts are. Having true concepts means the accurate prediction of the trajectory necessary to jump from leaf to leaf or to jump onto the neck of a moving gazelle. It means being able to fly through a cave without hitting obstacles; or it means avoiding the light when danger is sensed. All of these constitute the survival value of truth, and I intended to support an evolutionary account in order to demonstrate that truth is possible in the hypothetical absence of a rational creator god. That is a part of the position of agnosticism, not atheism, which says that we do not have the necessary evidence to believe that a god does exist. As in, we think truth exists and is valuable, yet this is not necessarily connected with the divine.
 
Hi Atheistgirl,

This looks interesting, but I do not have time today to read it… I hope to get it tomorrow. Thanks for sending it:)

Apparently since you sent this you are familiar with its contents. Tell me, what is the relationship between conceptalization in animals (assuming this can be proven) and atheism?

God bless
Another very interesting and well referenced article I found - if you’re genuinely interested in the research that’s out there - google is your friend 😉

logicallearning.net/cogprimates.html

Sarah x 🙂
 
tqualey;8599148:
Tell me, what is the relationship between conceptalization in animals (assuming this can be proven) and atheism?
I dont know.

Conceptualization in animals is hotly debated.

Whether they do or dont, what that has got to do with atheists saying there is insufficient material evidence to believe in a divine creator I have no clue. Perhaps Im not following your question. Theres obviously some point youre trying to get at 🤷

Sarah x 🙂
 
Hi, Atheistgirl,

Well, the thread is:How do I turn the table on atheists? And the question about animals being or not being able to conceptualize does not seem to directly effect atheism … at least as I see it.

And, continuing to go after this seems like we are just going off topic.

God bless
I dont know.

Conceptualization in animals is hotly debated.

Whether they do or dont, what that has got to do with atheists saying there is insufficient material evidence to believe in a divine creator I have no clue. Perhaps Im not following your question. Theres obviously some point youre trying to get at 🤷

Sarah x 🙂
 
There is no objective truth in nothing. So no, its not conceivably true.
I didn’t say conceivably true, but conceivably a truth… but if there are places where there is literally nothing, it would be (or rather is) the case that there is objectively truth in there being nothing
 
Hi, Atheistgirl,

Well, the thread is:How do I turn the table on atheists? And the question about animals being or not being able to conceptualize does not seem to directly effect atheism … at least as I see it.

And, continuing to go after this seems like we are just going off topic.

God bless
I think there is a link relating to particlar religious doctrines, including in ours, because if animals are intelligent, are they due various rights etc., why hasn’t this been emphasised by religion etc etc. There are are severa lthings to bring out about this, (I remember reading a mountain of quotes by Moby, a Christian animal rights activist about it)… nonetheless, it’s fairly supplementary

Oh! I know. It also links to the teleological argument - the unlikelihood of us being proof of God. There’s a peculiar argument that if we find more sentient, intelligent lifeforms, this must mean they occur naturally, and so are unlikely to require a divine design to exist - or something like that. personally, I see it as strengthening the teleological argument, in that if we’re so insanely unlikely, the chance of something of parallel mental complexity existing at the same time in the same universe would be even more unlikely (and these things are based on calculations of occurances by chance), the hilarious absurdly minute chance of occuring being so remote as to instead make God even more likely to any rational evaluation… 👍

Or it may relate to something else 🤷
 
My snails are so uncouth!!! They like nothing better than a cold beer to wash down the clemitis :eek:
Yes, they’re suckers for beer. It’s supposed to be slugs that are the boozers, but their shell dwelling chums are just as much a bunch of old soaks, you mark my words!

I know :nunchuk:
 
the hilarious absurdly minute chance of occuring being so remote as to instead make God even more likely to any rational evaluation…
Noooooooooooo I cant believe you went there - the arguement from incredulity :D:D:D

Sarah x 🙂
 
Hi, Mystic Banana,

Excellent! 👍 I just could not make any connection. 🙂

By the way, I found that your post had … a lot of ‘a peel’ …😃

God bless
I think there is a link relating to particlar religious doctrines, including in ours, because if animals are intelligent, are they due various rights etc., why hasn’t this been emphasised by religion etc etc. There are are severa lthings to bring out about this, (I remember reading a mountain of quotes by Moby, a Christian animal rights activist about it)… nonetheless, it’s fairly supplementary

Oh! I know. It also links to the teleological argument - the unlikelihood of us being proof of God. There’s a peculiar argument that if we find more sentient, intelligent lifeforms, this must mean they occur naturally, and so are unlikely to require a divine design to exist - or something like that. personally, I see it as strengthening the teleological argument, in that if we’re so insanely unlikely, the chance of something of parallel mental complexity existing at the same time in the same universe would be even more unlikely (and these things are based on calculations of occurances by chance), the hilarious absurdly minute chance of occuring being so remote as to instead make God even more likely to any rational evaluation… 👍

Or it may relate to something else 🤷
 
I didn’t say conceivably true, but conceivably a truth… but if there are places where there is literally nothing, it would be (or rather is) the case that there is objectively truth in there being nothing
Which ever way you want to say it won’t make a slight of difference. There is no place that is literaly nothing or has literally nothing in it. The absense of some thing is not the literal presence of nothing. Its not logically possible, any more than a square-triangle.
 
I’m reading the book the godless delusion, and it’s very helpful. I was just wondering if there is a good set of questions to ask atheists to maybe help them understand their view holds no ground and constantly contradict each other. Thanks
In my experience, it is very difficult to converse with atheists. They have been so imbued with the relativistic mindset it really is tough. You won’t really “win” an argument with them. They won’t let you. They will always have something else to try to bombard you with. At best all we can do, in my opinion is to challenge them with a few questions that may stick with them and make them think about it later on.

Also in my experience, the classic proofs such as from Aquinas, and others don’t really hold any weight with the modern atheists. I try to approach it from a scientific standpoint. That is the language the modern atheists speak and that is where we have to challenge them, I believe. There are many things that atheist scientists for example believe in without any proof. Pick up a popular science magazine like Discover and just read through some of the articles about the universe. It’s amazing to see how many of these scientists who don’t believe in God because “there’s no proof” gleefully proclaim their belief in parallel universes—even though there is no proof for them. (And even if there was it wouldn’t disprove God) They believe that there are multiple versions of each of us in various universes, all doing slightly different things.

Same thing with aliens. Atheists are usually obsessed with alien life, even though there is no proof for them either. (And even if there were that wouldn’t disprove God either) And why do they always assume that these creatures would be friendly???

Another area is the increasing belief among many skeptical scientists like Michio Kaku who wrote a book about higher dimension, called Hyperspace. In it he says this:

Imagine being able to walk through walls. You wouldn’t have to bother with opening doors; you could pass right through them….Imagine being able to disappear and reappear at will….You wouldn’t need an airplane to visit far-away places, you could just vanish and rematerialize where you wanted….We would truly be miracle workers, performing feats beyond comprehension of mortals….What being could possess such God-like power? The answer: a being from a higher dimensional world.” P 45-46

Gee, who does that remind us of?

String theory is another area of interest to us as defenders of the faith. String theory is a theory which would hopefully unite the two great physical laws of the world----the larger world of gravity and the smaller world of quantum physics ( the atoms) Many people are not aware of this area of seeming contradiction. For a 100 years or so since Einstein and others in the early part of the 20th century discovered it, this has puzzled scientists. The basics are like this: Gravity is predictable. It holds to certain laws that apply everywhere. The quantum world however, is not predictable. Things are kind of crazy in that world.
They seem to contradict each other and yet they are both true. This fact has troubled many scientists who were used to seeing the world in a predictable way. Many of the atheists who wrote in previous centuries were only familiar with this world. They knew nothing of this other seemingly strange, even “super natural” world, as some have called it. The irony is that even as so many atheists believe that it’s stupid to believe in God, there may be no better time in the last several hundred years to believe, scientifically speaking, that is. That’s why there are so many scientists who have come to believe.

So anyway, string theory proposes to embrace this paradox. But the interesting thing is that for it to work, it has to allow for 10 dimensions! They believe that there are several other dimensions surrounding us in addition to the four that we know of. So, one might ask–if so, why not another dimension where God exists? Physicist and Anglican minister John Polkinghorne has written about this, as have Fr. Spitzer and Stephen Barr, who has an interesting book out about the new science.

Then there is the big bang, which has amazing parallels to “creation out of nothing” and was first postulated by a Catholic priest–Fr. Lemaitre! A common argument from atheists is that the universe is so big, what kind of arrogance is it to think that it’s all for us? Well, according to the Big Bang, there was a time when it was not big at all, In fact there was a time when it was very small. Even some scientists have called it miraculous. Isn’t it ironic that it was a Catholic priest who set the stage for 20th century astrophsyics!?

It’s just like many have said–everyone has faith in something.
 
I’m reading the book the godless delusion, and it’s very helpful. I was just wondering if there is a good set of questions to ask atheists to maybe help them understand their view holds no ground and constantly contradict each other. Thanks
Sorry I couldn’t fit all of my post in one…

I used to be an atheist myself so I think I understand the atheist mindset. (Even though I was not a militant atheist)
Surely, they have to know that there are good reasons to believe in God and in Jesus as sent by God., but ultimately it’s a matter of the will.

I know for myself, one of the biggest reasons I didn’t want there to be a God and --especially not Jesus --was because I didn’t want to have to submit my sexuality to God. I grew up doing whatever I wanted in that area and believing that there was nothing wrong with it. So I think it might be safe to assume in our sex obsessed world, that that is probably a factor as well. I think we can challenge them on the sex issue maybe not even as part of our defense of the faith but simply in conversation. Try to emphasis that free sex doesn’t bring happiness long term, give examples of rock stars who didn’t find any satisfaction in it either and settled down to marriage, give statistics from the CDC about the STD epidemic --that kind of thing. (I think that the Theology of the Body can help us here. Many people just don’t know that there is a purpose to sex. I know it was one of the biggest reasons for my conversion. ) Although I think one has to be more open to God to receive this teaching.

It seems that many atheists have been warped by a fundamentalist mindset at some point, or have been harmed by a Christian in their life, many times by parents who were not very loving with them.

They see Christianity as silly and repressive and joyless. I think we can help them here just by being as charitable as we can be. And patient. And also just be real. Non-believers need to see Christians just being real and happy!

Personally I wanted to believe in God but all I knew of Christianity was you either go to hell or heaven. All those who don’t know Christ are going to hell. There seemed to be a lack of mercy there.I didn’t know anything of purgatory, so when I discovered it, I found that mercy and understanding of God that I had heard about. Purgatory at least gives us hope that those who don’t know Christ can still be saved as the CCC says. So if we can help them see that this doesn’t have to be the case that would be a good thing.

It is also by belief that many of them deep down really want to believe but they don’t know how and even harbor a sense of envy for those who do believe, which usually manifests as hostility.

I would also point out that Dawkins while claiming to be logical rationalist is really not. Others have taken him to task for his lack of logic.

I think there is no better example of this than what he says in the God Delusion regarding the reason that there is a universe at all:

It may even be a superhuman designer [italics mine]—but, if so, it will most certainly not be a designer who just popped into existence, or who always existed.” 186

I don’t know if he realizes this or not, but using his logic it seems he should allow for the existence of not only God, but also demons and angelic beings. (which of course he wouldn’t)

In the God Delusion, Dawkins outlines four ways that he believes morality developed. He uses examples from the animal world. The only problem is that the examples he uses can be explained by instinct. In fact the highest his examples go is to a reciprocal type of “you scratch my back, I’ll scratch yours” type of morality. But these examples don’t explain where in the world Christian morality would have come from.

Atheists usually explain morality as coming from “our social group” We naturally learn to be kind, loyal etc. from our tribe, family, etc. But what about those tribes, families, bent on murder and plunder? Saying that we learn it from our social group doesn’t say why we should choose the good. It doesn’t explain why or how humans out of all the other animals would have come to see that it is wrong to kill other members of our species for survival as lions and monkeys do? We don’t have to deny evolution in this argument— the fact is that evolution does not tell the whole story. It does not explain how in the world something immaterial like human consciousness, one of the chief mysteries in all of science would have come from that which is material? Is that logical?

How do they explain the rise of this uniquely human ability—well, they say, we just had a greater need for communication.

Ok, why? Why did only humans have such a need? Science and Christianity seem to agree on one thing–humans seem to be unique, set apart from the rest.

Also, we could challenge them on the afterlife. It is a fact that researchers who have studied things like near death experiences are convinced that there is some sort of existence after this life. The evidence is overwhelming. One of them even commented that the burden of proof now lies with those who don’t believe in an afterlife. Dinesh D’ Souza wrote a book about this.
It’s not logical to write off everyone who’s experiences this type of thing as simply hallucinating or crazy or hungry for attention.

Finally, we could also challenge them on the reliability and the uniqueness of the Bible, and how archaeology has helped show this. Also, the logic of the resurrection. (Peter Kreeft has written about this extensively in his Handbook of Christian Apologetics), and the role of Christianity in the development of the scientific method. (check out How the Catholic Church Built Western Civilization)

Many of them will try to say too, that Jesus probably never existed. That is foolishness. There is more proof for his existence than anyone’s in history.
 
Hi, Emisher,

Welcome to CAF! 🙂 And, thank you for sharing your personal insights into atheism.

My experience is very limited - and limited to only two people I knew as an undergraduate. Basically, they would not modify their sexual behaviors so they just modified their belief. It was just sooooooooo much easier to say there was not God, then I will control my body.

Reality is consequences - and it does not make any difference what you think of a flame - if you stick you hand it, you will be burned. You are correct about not ‘winning’ and arguments with athesists becasue they simply will not acknowledge that all of this order, all of these patterns could only come form the Master Pattern Maker. But, I do have one question for you…😃

Acquinas’ 5 proofs aquinasonline.com/Topics/5ways.html still make sense to me. All I have seen on this thread as a response is, “I-don’t-believe-it!” which does not really do much for a logical dialogue. From your perspective, why do you think Acquinas’ 5 proofs fail to convince today’s atheist?

God bless
Sorry I couldn’t fit all of my post in one…

I used to be an atheist myself so I think I understand the atheist mindset. (Even though I was not a militant atheist)
Surely, they have to know that there are good reasons to believe in God and in Jesus as sent by God., but ultimately it’s a matter of the will.

I know for myself, one of the biggest reasons I didn’t want there to be a God and --especially not Jesus --was because I didn’t want to have to submit my sexuality to God. I grew up doing whatever I wanted in that area and believing that there was nothing wrong with it. So I think it might be safe to assume in our sex obsessed world, that that is probably a factor as well. I think we can challenge them on the sex issue maybe not even as part of our defense of the faith but simply in conversation. Try to emphasis that free sex doesn’t bring happiness long term, give examples of rock stars who didn’t find any satisfaction in it either and settled down to marriage, give statistics from the CDC about the STD epidemic --that kind of thing. (I think that the Theology of the Body can help us here. Many people just don’t know that there is a purpose to sex. I know it was one of the biggest reasons for my conversion. ) Although I think one has to be more open to God to receive this teaching.

It seems that many atheists have been warped by a fundamentalist mindset at some point, or have been harmed by a Christian in their life, many times by parents who were not very loving with them.

In the God Delusion, Dawkins outlines four ways that he believes morality developed. He uses examples from the animal world. The only problem is that the examples he uses can be explained by instinct. In fact the highest his examples go is to a reciprocal type of “you scratch my back, I’ll scratch yours” type of morality. But these examples don’t explain where in the world Christian morality would have come from.

Atheists usually explain morality as coming from “our social group” We naturally learn to be kind, loyal etc. from our tribe, family, etc. But what about those tribes, families, bent on murder and plunder? Saying that we learn it from our social group doesn’t say why we should choose the good. It doesn’t explain why or how humans out of all the other animals would have come to see that it is wrong to kill other members of our species for survival as lions and monkeys do? We don’t have to deny evolution in this argument— the fact is that evolution does not tell the whole story. It does not explain how in the world something immaterial like human consciousness, one of the chief mysteries in all of science would have come from that which is material? Is that logical?

How do they explain the rise of this uniquely human ability—well, they say, we just had a greater need for communication.

Ok, why? Why did only humans have such a need? Science and Christianity seem to agree on one thing–humans seem to be unique, set apart from the rest.

Also, we could challenge them on the afterlife. It is a fact that researchers who have studied things like near death experiences are convinced that there is some sort of existence after this life. The evidence is overwhelming. One of them even commented that the burden of proof now lies with those who don’t believe in an afterlife. Dinesh D’ Souza wrote a book about this.
It’s not logical to write off everyone who’s experiences this type of thing as simply hallucinating or crazy or hungry for attention.

Finally, we could also challenge them on the reliability and the uniqueness of the Bible, and how archaeology has helped show this. Also, the logic of the resurrection. (Peter Kreeft has written about this extensively in his Handbook of Christian Apologetics), and the role of Christianity in the development of the scientific method. (check out How the Catholic Church Built Western Civilization)

Many of them will try to say too, that Jesus probably never existed. That is foolishness. There is more proof for his existence than anyone’s in history.
 
Emisher - I think you might have misrepresented Dawkins’ point re the creator - his point was if you reduce everything back to the creator, you have to then ask, who created the creator, and who created that creator of the creator and so on.

This for me is precicely why I dont find Aquinas’ proofs remotely convincing ie Everything must have a cause, except the first cause, which must be God. (that’s oversimplufued I know but I have gone through the proofs). That Im afraid makes no sense, and isnt even consistent with it’s own logic.

There are thousands of sites and papers refuting these proofs. I find them convincing.

Sarah x 🙂
 
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