How do I turn the table on atheists?

[Bobber90]

Hi Bobber90,

Ultimately we are back to looking at patterns - do they exist or not. This is totally empirical becaue we can prove patterns exist in every aspect of nature. True chaos is very difficult to even imagine must less demonstrate in the natural world, contrasted with the order that greets us every day with a ‘sunrise’, gravity keeping us to the Earth, water being wet as it seeks its own level, etc. We have patterns, we have order and I sumbit, we have God to thank for all of this.

God bless

Apologies for cutting out everything except this, but this is another of the issues it appears I have ignored. You argue that there is order (I agree), and that this must be because of God. On that I disagree, and it is incredibly simple for me - I do not think that the existence of order entails anything in the way of divine creation. Yes, it would make sense if this order was created by a deity, but is it entailed? I cannot see how that would be true, and I believe there are alternatives.

Also, before I continue looking at your posts, which was the ManOnFire post you wanted me to look at, because I started on one (about the big crunch, first causes etc etc), but you are referring me to another? Thanks

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Bobber90,

Let’s move very deliberately here. When you say you that there is order in the universe, just what do you mean?

On the other topic … I will have to hunt for it - of course … this would be a good time for ManOnFire to leap in and resuce us by providing the link he posted… Actually, he has been more noted for his absence than his presence here of late…!

Oh well, we will see. So, please fully explain just what you mean by your agreement with order. It would be a terrible thing to think we are on the same page and this isn’t the case! By the way, on a somewhat related topic - do you like chocolate or vanilla ice cream?

God bless

Apologies for cutting out everything except this, but this is another of the issues it appears I have ignored.** You argue that there is order (I agree)**, and that this must be because of God. On that I disagree, and it is incredibly simple for me - I do not think that the existence of order entails anything in the way of divine creation. Yes, it would make sense if this order was created by a deity, but is it entailed? I cannot see how that would be true, and I believe there are alternatives.

Also, before I continue looking at your posts, which was the ManOnFire post you wanted me to look at, because I started on one (about the big crunch, first causes etc etc), but you are referring me to another? Thanks

 

[Bobber90]

Hi, Bobber90,

Let’s move very deliberately here. When you say you that there is order in the universe, just what do you mean?

On the other topic … I will have to hunt for it - of course … this would be a good time for ManOnFire to leap in and resuce us by providing the link he posted… Actually, he has been more noted for his absence than his presence here of late…!

Oh well, we will see. So, please fully explain just what you mean by your agreement with order. It would be a terrible thing to think we are on the same page and this isn’t the case! By the way, on a somewhat related topic - do you like chocolate or vanilla ice cream?

God bless

Well, as regards order, you have given many good examples of things but something even more basic and important than gravity, stars and radioactivity is the consistency of everything over time. Atoms exist now, and atoms exist in a few seconds time. Energy radiates from the sun, and doesn’t happen to just cease existing, or change into something rather different.

So, fundamentally, if it weren’t for atoms and energy which consistently exist over time, we wouldn’t be able to live. Perhaps quantum mechanics will revise this idea, because the location of each atom from one moment to the next can literally range with the maximum bounds of the universe, but from our point of view they don’t.

Both ice creams are nice, by the way!

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Bobber90,

OK, I think we are on the same page when it come to order.

So, here is where I am going … and you are welcomed to come along …

In my view, order is everywhere - we can see some thing that may appear to be an exception - like disease may appear to be a disorder to the order of health. But, as I see it, there is an order to every disease. Different microrganism invade our bodies from different directions (insects, contaminated water, air pollution, etc) but they do so in an orderly manner! Once inside our bodies where they attempt to set up shop there is a typical pattern that is demonstrated (how symptoms develop is a good indication of which disease you may have). Today, with sophisticated laboratory exams we can identify the invader without too much difficulty - because of the patterns that demonstrate in response to their shape, how they stain, which antibiotics are effective and the like. We may survive the invader and possibly become stronger (an immunity) or it may kill us… a rather negative outcome. But, an experienced observer can track the progress one makes - and for both outcomes there are predictable patterns for recovery or death.

At every level, there is order - and this means that everything we see is responding to the orders given from the Master Order Giver. And, I submit that one can not simply dismiss our experience with universal order as ‘well…it just happens’. Such an approach is truly illogical. Now, some may not like the consequences of drawing such a conclusion - and then try feverishly to come up with another conclusion (as the Wiki article demonstrated) but, ultimately such an approach is doomed to failure. The reason for this is … there is an order to denial! The human mind can not consciously chose evil - we can only chose what we thing is good (naturally, there are a lot of poor choices along the way - but, in retrospect everyone who choses what they now consider bad will tell you that they thought they were choosing something good. Looks like another pattern has been identified.

So, if you chose angosticism, it means you think that there is not enough information from which to make a choice. Now, it really isn’t that there isn’t enough objective evidence througout the world that different cultures throughout time have worshiped god(s) - it is that you do not thing there is enough which stacks up in the pre-determined method you have selcted for this information to be arranged. The universe is full of surprises - no one would have thought that life could survive thousands of feet below the surface of the water where the pressure along is astounding, or live in water next to thermal vents hot enough to melt lead - but, such creatures exist and they are real. And, these creatures while being different from the order we obdserve in the every-day world do demonstrate order and patterns in their own world. It is up to us to acknowledge this reality.

Yes, both flavors of ice cream are very nice - but, which one would you chose if given the choice? Don’t punt. I will be away from my computer for a while … but, I will be looking forward to your answer(s)…

God bless

Well, as regards order, you have given many good examples of things but something even more basic and important than gravity, stars and radioactivity is the consistency of everything over time. Atoms exist now, and atoms exist in a few seconds time. Energy radiates from the sun, and doesn’t happen to just cease existing, or change into something rather different.

So, fundamentally, if it weren’t for atoms and energy which consistently exist over time, we wouldn’t be able to live. Perhaps quantum mechanics will revise this idea, because the location of each atom from one moment to the next can literally range with the maximum bounds of the universe, but from our point of view they don’t.

Both ice creams are nice, by the way!

 

[StrawberryJam]

Hi, Bobber90,

OK, I think we are on the same page when it come to order.

So, here is where I am going … and you are welcomed to come along …

In my view, order is everywhere - we can see some thing that may appear to be an exception - like disease may appear to be a disorder to the order of health. But, as I see it, there is an order to every disease. Different microrganism invade our bodies from different directions (insects, contaminated water, air pollution, etc) but they do so in an orderly manner! Once inside our bodies where they attempt to set up shop there is a typical pattern that is demonstrated (how symptoms develop is a good indication of which disease you may have). Today, with sophisticated laboratory exams we can identify the invader without too much difficulty - because of the patterns that demonstrate in response to their shape, how they stain, which antibiotics are effective and the like. We may survive the invader and possibly become stronger (an immunity) or it may kill us… a rather negative outcome. But, an experienced observer can track the progress one makes - and for both outcomes there are predictable patterns for recovery or death.

At every level, there is order - and this means that everything we see is responding to the orders given from the Master Order Giver. And, I submit that one can not simply dismiss our experience with universal order as ‘well…it just happens’. Such an approach is truly illogical. Now, some may not like the consequences of drawing such a conclusion - and then try feverishly to come up with another conclusion (as the Wiki article demonstrated) but, ultimately such an approach is doomed to failure. The reason for this is … there is an order to denial! The human mind can not consciously chose evil - we can only chose what we thing is good (naturally, there are a lot of poor choices along the way - but, in retrospect everyone who choses what they now consider bad will tell you that they thought they were choosing something good. Looks like another pattern has been identified.

So, if you chose angosticism, it means you think that there is not enough information from which to make a choice. Now, it really isn’t that there isn’t enough objective evidence througout the world that different cultures throughout time have worshiped god(s) - it is that you do not thing there is enough which stacks up in the pre-determined method you have selcted for this information to be arranged. The universe is full of surprises - no one would have thought that life could survive thousands of feet below the surface of the water where the pressure along is astounding, or live in water next to thermal vents hot enough to melt lead - but, such creatures exist and they are real. And, these creatures while being different from the order we obdserve in the every-day world do demonstrate order and patterns in their own world. It is up to us to acknowledge this reality.

Yes, both flavors of ice cream are very nice - but, which one would you chose if given the choice? Don’t punt. I will be away from my computer for a while … but, I will be looking forward to your answer(s)…

God bless

An order to every disease? Really? How do you see an order to every disease?

 

[Bobber90]

An order to every disease? Really? How do you see an order to every disease?

My thinking is not that every disease has its place in a purposeful order, as in hierarchy, but rather that even in the most horrendous things order is displayed. I don’t think he was saying that everything that is ordered is good so much as order is remarkable. So viruses and bacteria make use of large proteins and replicate/subsist in a remarkably ordered way.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Bobber90,

That is exactly what I was saying about disease.

God bless

My thinking is not that every disease has its place in a purposeful order, as in hierarchy, but rather that even in the most horrendous things order is displayed. I don’t think he was saying that everything that is ordered is good so much as order is remarkable. So viruses and bacteria make use of large proteins and replicate/subsist in a remarkably ordered way.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, StrawberryJam,

Let’s take a look at some ‘garden variety’ diseases:

Measles, en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Measles note the symptoms and how this disease is spread.

Mumps en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mumps and the orderly way that symptoms appear and how this disease is spread.

This order in nature also can be identified under the microscope where a trained individual can distinguish from one micro-organism from another. This is true not only for human diseases, but those impacting on animals and plants, too. You get the idea - pick any disease process - those caused by invaders, and those caused by us abusing our own bodies (take a perfectly good liver and then over time subject it to gallons of alcohol and watch how it changes, or take perfectly good lungs and then over tie subject it to thousands of cubic feet of gas polluted with tobacco smoke and watch how the lungs change) and see how it works out. Every time. Given the pattern the outcome is predictable - and such a statement can only be valid unless there is an order that we can identify,

It is because of this identified order that scientists can intervene by offering procedures (like frequent hand washing) or large scale interventions (like spraying for mosquitoes and draining the swamp) or immunizations (to disrupt part of the order) or medicines (to aid the body in destroyingh the disease organism).

All I am saying is that not only are we surrounded by order but order is in our very being. Now, when we try to impose our order on things - well, we often experience difficulties. The expression of ‘herding cats’ probably captures the flavor of such things not happening easily.

Throughout this post I have used the word ‘order’ - but another word can easily be used and tht is ‘patterns’. We find that patterns can be detected thoughout nature if we are just willing to look. Feel your own pulse and (hopefully) you have a regular, steady beat that you can count while watching a clock… with a normal range from 60 - 100 beates per minute. Here we have a sequence of electrical energy, causing muscles to contract and physically squeeze blood throughout our body. Such precision just does not happen - and the proof of that statement is that chaos should be abounding in nature - no identifiable patterns, no replication, all is one time and totally unique!

I submit that these patterns are the clear evidence of a Master Pattern Maker - Who not only brought all into existence from nothingness but keeps all in existence. Look at the amazing sophistication of how each cell in our body has a cell wall that only allows some things in and some things out to the vast and varied galaxies humans have identified. The size of the object is not the issue - just look at the patterns that are being displayed. But, Master Pattern Maker has too many letters … so I shorten it to just three: God

God bless

An order to every disease? Really? How do you see an order to every disease?

 

[OMGJ]

The weakness in the argument of the Atheist does not lie in the fact that they band together, buy books supporting their view or speak out in favor of this position. Most Catholics do some or all of the same. The weakness lies in their lack of logic, lack of even admitted they could be wrong, and lack of looking at patterns and not acknowledging that there is evidence of a Master Pattern Maker.

I’ve always thought the search for the existence of God as something like hunting for a stag in the forest. When you first come to the forest, you do not know if there is a stag but you are eager to find out. So you search for evidence of a stag and you examine the ground for tracks and look for signs of it’s passing.

The atheistic stance is like saying there’s no stag while looking at the stag’s prints and dismissing it, concluding that it was a randomly created indentation by a rock or the soil eroding. And when you press them by asking, “but why do they all look the same?” they refuse to acknowledge its sameness (pattern) and stubbornly assert that it’s all random and chaos.

 

[ThinkingSapien]

An order to every disease? Really? How do you see an order to every disease?

More or less what is being said is that diseases has syndromes. Based on the past experiences, research, and other informational items that we as humans have inherited as a wealth of knowledge it is possible to infer pathogens, injury, or other event or object whose presence or occurance has contributed to the syndrome.

From reading some of the previous post though it looks that “order” is being used to represent more than one thing. In a few post it looks like it is referring to something desirable or helpful (in in the case of disorder it seems to represent both ailment and lack of regular arrangement).
.

 

[Charlemagne_II]

OMGJ

**The atheistic stance is like saying there’s no stag while looking at the stag’s prints and dismissing it, concluding that it was a randomly created indentation by a rock or the soil eroding. And when you press them by asking, “but why do they all look the same?” they refuse to acknowledge its sameness (pattern) and stubbornly assert that it’s all random and chaos. **

And the atheist is infallible in this regard. It isn’t just that he refuses to see the tracks, he **knows for a fact **there is no stag to leave any tracks! If he did not know this for a fact, he would have to take another person’s word for having seen the tracks, and maybe even having seen (fell in love with, worshiped) the stag. But there can be no stag for the atheist hunter, who has given up looking almost as soon as he began to look (most atheists trace the origin of their atheism to their teen years).

So whatever experience another person has had with the stag has to be an illusion, tracks included.

 

[Charlemagne_II]

I have just finished reading Peter Hitchens’ book, The Rage against God. It is a solid antidote to his brother’s book, god Is Not Great. I just learned that putting a lower case “g” on the name of God, which atheists frequently do, was mandated by the Communist government in the 1920s soon after Russia’s Bolshevik Revolution.

Hitchens spends a great deal of time documenting the plan to destroy religion in Russia, engineered by atheists Lenin and Stalin right from the start. They had to have no rival authority (the Church) in order to commit the atrocities that would be required to put Russia on the right road to communist utopia. Included in the plan was propaganda to depict religion as something to be outlawed in the education of children. Hitchens then does a parallel study of Richard Dawkins and cohorts, who have advocated similar attacks on religion, depicting it as a form of child abuse that must be stopped and supplanted with scientism.

Again, noting that the Communist Revolution finally failed by the 1990s, Hitchens observes that the present moral chaos inside Russia, which has become a gangster State, is due to the fact that for several generations the Churches have not been able to pass on godly moral values to the young.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, OMGJ,

This is a very appropriate analogy - and, one I enjoyed reading.

God bless

I’ve always thought the search for the existence of God as something like hunting for a stag in the forest. When you first come to the forest, you do not know if there is a stag but you are eager to find out. So you search for evidence of a stag and you examine the ground for tracks and look for signs of it’s passing.

The atheistic stance is like saying there’s no stag while looking at the stag’s prints and dismissing it, concluding that it was a randomly created indentation by a rock or the soil eroding. And when you press them by asking, “but why do they all look the same?” they refuse to acknowledge its sameness (pattern) and stubbornly assert that it’s all random and chaos.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, ThinkingSapien,

Well … not quite… I am really going beyond syndromes … and, maybe it would be good to take a look at a defnition. This one is from Wiki:

"In medicine and psychology, a syndrome is the association of several clinically recognizable features, signs (observed by a physician), symptoms (reported by the patient), phenomena or characteristics that often occur together, so that the presence of one or more features alerts the physician to the possible presence of the others. Specific syndromes tend to have a range of possible etiologies or diseases that could create such a set of circumstances. I.e. there is an important distinction between Parkinson’s disease and a Parkinsonian syndrome, whereby the latter could be caused by the former, but also by other conditions such as a progressive supranuclear palsy or multiple system atrophy. In other words, in a medical setting, a syndrome might narrow down the possible diseases a patient may possess, just as speaking English might focus a guess as to the country in which that person originates."

Make no mistake about it - reality exists quite independent of our being pleased or displesed with its outcome. In no way was I trying to even hint that order is only for beneficial effects on the human condition in general or to any single person’s benefit. Order in everything is a reality. I used the analogy of disease as an example - not of disorder, but of order. It is precisely because the disease presents in a particular manner (in an ordered manner) that the physician is able to arrive at a diagnosis. Admittedly, a syndrome can be helpful - but, this is just the beginning of our recognition of the order of the problem.

The presence of order - or, patterns, as I like to call them - is not an incidental feature in an other-wise overwhelming landscape. When one considers extreme distances (greater than 1 billion light years [Redshift and Hubble's Law]](Redshift and Hubble's Law]) or a fraction of a nanometer [en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_force_microscopy]](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_force_microscopy])) one can only marvel how scientists were able to make such instruments to observe the item and then to calculate its dimensions. Considering where science was in measuring objects in the 18th Century, we can only guess that by the time 23rd Century comes we will have found still more things right under our noses that we did not even know existed until then. And, all of this will be done through recognizing patterns that allow for experimentation and discovery. But, as you guessed, patterns are not an end in themselves.

Like the hoof prints left by the elusive deer in the forest, as described by OMGJ, we can follow its trail, knowing that these marks were left by the Real Hoof Print Maker … and that would just be another name for the Master Pattern Maker, the First Cause, the Unmoved Mover - and more commonly called, God.

God bless

More or less what is being said is that diseases has syndromes. Based on the past experiences, research, and other informational items that we as humans have inherited as a wealth of knowledge it is possible to infer pathogens, injury, or other event or object whose presence or occurance has contributed to the syndrome.

From reading some of the previous post though it looks that “order” is being used to represent more than one thing. In a few post it looks like it is referring to something desirable or helpful (in in the case of disorder it seems to represent both ailment and lack of regular arrangement).
.

 

[ManOnFire]

The bottom line is that some individuals decide whether or not God exists based on their own thoughts as if they themselves are the godlike judge and jury of what is just and what is not just, without realizing that it is their own grandiose ego that prevents them from seeing the humble truth, which is that they are not the godlike judge and jury who gets to decide what is just. The key is to humble oneself to give one’s life away in service to others, usually spouse and kids. If we strengthen individuals to realize this sacrifice, the we will strengthen famillies as a result, and there won’t be so many broken-hearted. Then, one will have graduated from childlike center-of-the-universedom into Christ’s example of laying down our lives for others. It’s not easy, but it’s rewards to the individual and society are substantial. True depth of romanticism and enlightenment can be found on this journey. It’s life, the way it was meant to be lived.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, ManOnFire,

Very good

I enjoy your posts … please join us more often.

God bless

The bottom line is that some individuals decide whether or not God exists based on their own thoughts as if they themselves are the godlike judge and jury of what is just and what is not just, without realizing that it is their own grandiose ego that prevents them from seeing the humble truth, which is that they are not the godlike judge and jury who gets to decide what is just. The key is to humble oneself to give one’s life away in service to others, usually spouse and kids. If we strengthen individuals to realize this sacrifice, the we will strengthen famillies as a result, and there won’t be so many broken-hearted. Then, one will have graduated from childlike center-of-the-universedom into Christ’s example of laying down our lives for others. It’s not easy, but it’s rewards to the individual and society are substantial. True depth of romanticism and enlightenment can be found on this journey. It’s life, the way it was meant to be lived.

 

[White_Peony]

I’m reading the book the godless delusion, and it’s very helpful. I was just wondering if there is a good set of questions to ask atheists to maybe help them understand their view holds no ground and constantly contradict each other. Thanks

Use logic to convince them they have a soul.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Peony,

That sounds good …

Now, if a streaming video with some interesting music would be helpful … let me offer this item that came to my mailbox this evening…

www.andiesisle.com/creation/magnificent.html

God bless

Use logic to convince them they have a soul.

 

[Whadyamean]

Use logic to convince them they have a soul.

I’m new here, but I am very surprised to see allegedly “spiritual” people advancing logic and argument as viable means for changing someone else’s mind. In my experience argumentation from either atheists or religious people of any faith has been an immediate fail. Neither faith nor logic function in that realm, as far as I can tell, except as a very rudimentary area of encounter. Like Mark Twain said, “It is useless to try to teach a pig to sing; it is a waste of time and annoys the pig.” And in all fairness, the “pig” could be on either end of the conversation.

I think it is fun to have such discussions as a sharpening of wit, but that can happen in any area and perhaps it is not so wise to believe that such argumentation has any merit as “spiritual” practice, whatever entertainment or pedagogic value we might derive from such exchanges.

And why would anyone want to turn the table on an atheist? Being one may very well be a necessary step for some in the same way that a teenager goes contrary to its parents in order to gain the strength of independence necessary for an adult stance. For my part, I have met a few atheists I feel to be far more spiritually advanced than many religious folks. Does belonging to a club make someone better than a non-member simply by virtue of having a membership card? Or is there such a thing by that measure as merit and accomplishment outside that club? So when you are trying to Turn the table" what table are you trying to turn?

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Whadyamean,

Welcome to CAF.

You will find that CAF has many different threads and many people looking at many aspects of an issue. And, this, at least to my opinion, brings on a certain richness by showing things that may not have been thought of before.

As I appreciate your post, it is more of a, “Why bother?” approach. Logic won’t work, faith with not work, and since you presented nothing in your post that does work - my guess is that everything in this area of trying to present the Truth to others is a waste of time to say nothing about annoying any musically challenged pigs out there.

Unless I am mistaken in reading what you wrote - it would appear that everyone has whatever it is they need - discussing other views only leads to arguments and unhappy pigs and if just keep everything on the superficial level we will all get along. Simply stated, this is neither the way our Catholic Faith is - we are commanded by Christ to preach the Good news to everyone and baptise everyone in evey nation. Actually, the world is not like you describe, either. There are many well-paid atheistic apologists will (for a price) to tell you that this entire world ‘just happened and we just happened along with it!’. That is their story (like ice cream - all vanilla, but different flavoring and fruit added to give it a different taste!) adn they are sticking with it. They promote a godless universe in the hope that a godless culture will develop (or, in our case, take deeper root).

I notice you claim to be a ‘Roaming’ Catholic and I guess that this was either a typo, or your attempt at humor. If a typo, please, the word is ‘Roman’. If you are actually roaming, may I suggest that you ‘roam’ over to the 25th Chapter of Matthew and take a look at the three parables presented about people who thought they knew better but experienced a truly disasterous end.

God bless

I’m new here, but I am very surprised to see allegedly “spiritual” people advancing logic and argument as viable means for changing someone else’s mind. In my experience argumentation from either atheists or religious people of any faith has been an immediate fail. Neither faith nor logic function in that realm, as far as I can tell, except as a very rudimentary area of encounter. Like Mark Twain said, “It is useless to try to teach a pig to sing; it is a waste of time and annoys the pig.” And in all fairness, the “pig” could be on either end of the conversation.

I think it is fun to have such discussions as a sharpening of wit, but that can happen in any area and perhaps it is not so wise to believe that such argumentation has any merit as “spiritual” practice, whatever entertainment or pedagogic value we might derive from such exchanges.

And why would anyone want to turn the table on an atheist? Being one may very well be a necessary step for some in the same way that a teenager goes contrary to its parents in order to gain the strength of independence necessary for an adult stance. For my part, I have met a few atheists I feel to be far more spiritually advanced than many religious folks. Does belonging to a club make someone better than a non-member simply by virtue of having a membership card? Or is there such a thing by that measure as merit and accomplishment outside that club? So when you are trying to Turn the table" what table are you trying to turn?