How do I turn the table on atheists?

[Al_Moritz]

The truth is that I don’t need to read the article to know that several arguments here are false. I am very interested in talking seriously about this stuff,

No, you are not. If you do not read the articles you will not even be able to grasp the scope of the issue.

and if you know of anything in any of these lengthy articles that challenges the following, please don’t hesitate to deploy your extensive knowledge.

From the notion that the conditions of the universe are ‘precisely fine-tuned’ for life it does not follow that these conditions are also hard to come by or improbable.

Indeed, we cannot claim to know how probable the existence of our universe is, because we only have one universe to look at.

Again, read the articles and you will understand that the objection is flawed. Also, leading atheist and agnostic cosmologists (e.g. Hawking, Rees, Suesskind, Smolin, Weinberg, Tegmark) point out the seriousness of the fine-tuning issue. You just do not know what you are talking about.

If we could know that there was a multiverse, and several billion universes like ours, clearly the probability of having life exist within them might not be so low.

Answered in my article.

Thank you!

You’re welcome.

 

[atheistgirl]

Here is atheist Tim O’Neill debunking the Jesus myth:

armariummagnus.blogspot.com/2011/05/nailed-ten-christian-myths-that-show.html

Oh that main by brain hurt

To Emisher, Al, OMGJ and Charlemange II - I appreciate your responses and Im sorry if Im frustrating you guys - Im frustrating myself - Im going to stop responding for a day or two, reflect on the links and comments youve given, and then come back. Sometimes I just need to stop and think.

Sarah x

 

[emisher]

Oh that main by brain hurt

To Emisher, Al, OMGJ and Charlemange II - I appreciate your responses and Im sorry if Im frustrating you guys - Im frustrating myself - Im going to stop responding for a day or two, reflect on the links and comments youve given, and then come back. Sometimes I just need to stop and think.

Sarah x

I know what you mean. Ok, talk to you later!

 

[Arizona_Mike]

Never mind hundreds if not thousands of graves bursting open and the dead walking into the town and mingling with the living etc.

Not one person of any authority what so ever, civil or religious - at the time - saw fit to record this???

Sarah x

Matthew 27:52-53.

*52 and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53 They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and[a] went into the holy city and appeared to many people. *

Sarah, do you have a translation of the Gospel that says “hundreds, if not thousands of graves” burst open, or is this just an atheist exaggeration in the hope of making it sound like a George Romero flick? I’ve read that selection “many” times, (which in that context and the first could mean just 4 or 5). The passage clearly states that “many holy people” were raised to life - so in context, this would have meant devout Jewish people, including, possibly, some Jews who recognized Christ as the Messiah in life (although not many, as few of these would have been likely to have died in the period of Jesus’ ministry.)

So, this passage does not record the resurrection of Romans or other Pagans, so it would be unlikely to be witnessed by any of them, and as both the Hasmonean religious elite and the Roman occupiers were violently antithetical to the Christian movement and it is unlikely that anyone would have risked their life to report it to them. If the Jewish dead who were resurrected were to speak to their loved ones or others, it is likely (again, in context) that these people, recognized by the living as devout and holy Jews, would be witnessing for the divinity of the risen Christ, as they were resurrected in connection with the events of Easter Sunday - this message would again be unlikely to be recorded, if known or reported, by the Sanhedrin or the Romans, as individuals from both groups had recently been complicit in the execution of the leader of this group. It would be improbable that these bureaucrats would turn around and write of events that would discredit their actions.

So a small group of early Christians, who were considered religious criminals in the eyes of both Rome and the Sanhedrin, reported witnessing the appearance of a number of the the resurrected dead - who, if Matthew was writing metaphorically, possibly could have been spirits rather than the physically resurrected, but I tend to believe the latter is true.

Like many miracles associated with Christ, this incident was a sign of things to come, as it prefigured the eventual bodily resurrection of the followers of Christ (as with Lazarus.)

I don’t have a problem believing in this event. It does not conflict with our knowledge of science or reality to say that a supernatural force could affect events in this universe, and if God could create our universe (as the evidence of logic, reason, science, and revelation tells me) and raise his Son from the dead, why could he not raise others?

 

[Al_Moritz]

Oh that main by brain hurt

To Emisher, Al, OMGJ and Charlemange II - I appreciate your responses and Im sorry if Im frustrating you guys - Im frustrating myself - Im going to stop responding for a day or two, reflect on the links and comments youve given, and then come back. Sometimes I just need to stop and think.

Sarah x

I like your attitude No, you are not frustrating me (someone else is).

 

[Arizona_Mike]

Here is atheist Tim O’Neill debunking the Jesus myth:

armariummagnus.blogspot.com/2011/05/nailed-ten-christian-myths-that-show.html

That’s a very devastating criticism of the “Jesus Myth” hypothesis - thanks for posting the link, Al.

I’d recommend everyone read it if they haven’t already done so.

 

[Al_Moritz]

That’s a very devastating criticism of the “Jesus Myth” hypothesis

Yeah, and written by an atheist no less.

 

[MindOverMatter2]

Yeah, and written by an atheist no less.

Thank you for your participation on this forum. Your faith and reasoning is valued. God bless.

 

[tonyrey]

You haven’t explained how choice can exist where everything is biologically evolved…
I sure haven’t. I don’t intend to. It isnt necessary for the summary thought i expressed.

Then it lacks plausibillity…

 

[tqualey]

Hi, OMGJ,

This is embarrassing … and, I hate to tell you … but… none of your arguments ‘wash’ … and that is because your logic is crystal clear and defy the illogic used to discredit them!

I had tried a similar approch using the High Priest who thought nothing of perjury, suborning perjury, inciting a riot to call for the murder of an Innocent Man - and of course, murder itself. Surely, anyone willing to do all of this would have thought nothing of just doing to same to the Apostles, and any of Christ’s followers, actively campaigning that the dead have not risen - especially the Man that had just been crucified on Friday. Yet, not of this happened - in fact, these Jewish leaders totally lost control! And, you just have to wonder how High Priest Anaanias felt about this disaster that happened on his watch!

Concerning the writing of history as an exercise of unbiased and even-handed efforts by scholars interested only in further knowledge - my comment is: be careful. To this day, Indian victories are still called massacres. The Romas were not too happy with Judea - as a geographic area, it was costing a lot of money to keept the Roman Peace over there - and the Emperors had already conquered the area and wanted to move on to other areas - but, they had to leave troops there. Ultimately, in 70AD Titus destroyed Jerusalem. But during the intervening 37 years - the Infant Catholic Faith was spreading all over the Known World.

Here is an interesting quote from Wiki concerning who was writing what:

"According to Simon Dixon, the early Roman writers viewed Christianity not as another kind of pietas, but as a superstitio, or superstition. Pliny the Younger, a Roman governor writing c. 110 CE, called Christianity a “superstition taken to extravagant lengths.” Similarly, the Roman historian Tacitus called it “a deadly superstition,” and the historian Suetonius called Christians “a class of persons given to a new and mischievous superstition.”[7] In this context, the word “superstition” has a slightly different connotation than it has today: for the Romans, it designated something foreign and different - in a negative sense. A religious belief was valid only insofar as it could be shown to be old and in line with ancient customs; new teachings were regarded with distrust." en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Christians_in_the_Roman_Empire

Basically, Roman Emperors were on-again, off-again persecuting Catholics (they were the only Christians around! ) until 314 with the Edict of Milan which gave freedom of religion to the Catholics.

In my opinion, you hit the nail squarely on the head, and efforts to discredit your post are just evidence of tailoring the facts to fit one;s theory.

God bless

Was it not the Sanhedrin that condemned Jesus for blasphemy? And was it not the Roman prefect who ordered the execution of Jesus? Now if you were the supreme governing council or the appointed governor of Judea, would it be in your best interest to have anyone proclaim or write about this guy who you had condemned and executed rose from the dead? Would you not want to destroy the evidence? Would you agree that they persecuted and killed the early Christians (or was that a myth too)? And if they tried to destroy the people proclaiming these “falsities”, wouldn’t you agree that it would only follow that they would destroy any written document of the event?

I don’t understand this part: “Never mind hundreds if not thousands of graves bursting open and the dead walking into the town and mingling with the living etc.” There was a zombie apocalypse in the Bible???

 

[Al_Moritz]

Thank you for your participation on this forum.

Thank you too, MindOverMatter. I always look forward to reading your posts, and quite often I find them to be highlights. Honestly, no kidding.

Your faith and reasoning is valued. God bless.

Well, my faith is rather flawed, but my reasoning perhaps less so

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Al Moritz,

This is an excellent link! Thanks for sending it.

I really had no idea of what to expect - but, after reading it, I would like to recommend it to everyone - and especially for the those who claim to be atheists or agnostics.

Again, Al, thnks for posting that link.

God bless

Here is atheist Tim O’Neill debunking the Jesus myth:

armariummagnus.blogspot.com/2011/05/nailed-ten-christian-myths-that-show.html

 

[Mystic_Banana]

This is not accurate, depending on what you mean by “no-longer there”.

The past “exists”; it just doesn’t exist in the present. It no-longer exists as the present; but it does exists in the eternal-now. So to it is true that the future exists, its just doesn’t exist in the present. However the future only exists as an expression of the present and the past, and not by itself. This doesn’t mean that time is an illusion, it just means that it is relative. In the eternal now there is no moving present, no past and future; there are just co-ordinates signifying a various points in space-time.

To make it easier to understand, imagine that time and space are the same thing. If this were true then the expansion of space is the expansion of time. It thus follows that particular points in space are particular points in time. Therefore the future is only the future relative to your position in space and how fast you are traveling through it, and the past is also relative to your position in space and the rate at which you travel through it.

…so if i find a force powerful enough (using gravity and something else) you can fold space ; and if that were possible the future and the past could become one, making time travel possible…

…my nose is now gushing with blood due to the sheer force of that thought. My thinking days are numbered; i only have a Pentium twelve processor!!

Well, that’s one way of looking at it - butr is that true? Or is time something that continues along, and what has gone is gone?

Regardless, whether it’s still there or not, the past is not there where we are, according to your conceptualization, so we still cannot examine it

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Emisher,

Let me comment on one of the items you brought out…

So likewise, it makes sense that the people who were raised would not appear to those in authority, but perhaps to families members or others who were open to all this unfolding in the land at the time. It’s likely that many or most of these people would not have been able to write, but it’s more likely that they would have no impulse to write it down as that would be evidence for them being Christians. They would have more impulse to go and be among those who did believe and experience the joy of community. Perhaps some did write it down and it no longer exists. And of course only a few decades later it would be written down, but in the gospels, which for many is not allowable. -

One of the more interesting things about the New Testament is that while Christ died about 33AD, the first book of the New Teatament did not appear until about 51AD as Paul’s letter to the Galatians. The last book (Revelations) was not written until 100AD. With a range from 18 - 67 years when the New Testament was written after the death of Christ - and the time from of 1st Century fishermen, and a tax collector - these documents are most singular examples of impressive writing.

Secondly, look at what happened when Christ raised Lazarus from the grave as recorded in John11:39-53. Here is the text:

39Jesus said, “Take away the stone.” Martha, the dead man’s sister, said to him, “Lord, by now there will be a stench; he has been dead for four days.” 40Jesus said to her, “Did I not tell you that if you believe you will see the glory of God?” 41So they took away the stone. And Jesus raised his eyes and said, “Father, I thank you for hearing me. 42I know that you always hear me; but because of the crowd here I have said this, that they may believe that you sent me.”n 43And when he had said this, he cried out in a loud voice, “Lazarus, come out!” 44The dead man came out, tied hand and foot with burial bands, and his face was wrapped in a cloth. So Jesus said to them, “Untie him and let him go.” 45Now many of the Jews who had come to Mary and seen what he had done began to believe in him.o 46But some of them went to the Pharisees and told them what Jesus had done. 47So the chief priests and the Pharisees convened the Sanhedrin and said, “What are we going to do? This man is performing many signs.p 48If we leave him alone, all will believe in him, and the Romans will come* and take away both our land and our nation.” 49q But one of them, Caiaphas, who was high priest that year,* said to them, “You know nothing, 50nor do you consider that it is better for you that one man should die instead of the people, so that the whole nation may not perish.” 51He did not say this on his own, but since he was high priest for that year, he prophesied that Jesus was going to die for the nation, 52and not only for the nation, but also to gather into one the dispersed children of God.* 53So from that day on they planned to kill him**

So after seeing Lazarus raised 4-days after him being put in the tomb - the Jews plot to kill Chirst! .There just was no reason for Christ to appear to those who were not open to Him. But according to Paul, Christ was not bashful in showing Himself to others. There are several accounts of the Risen Christ appearing to people:

The resurrection of Jesus Christ was the beginning of Christianity. If Christ had not been resurrected and seen by many people (more than 500), Christianity would not exist today. Jesus made twelve appearances after his resurrection:

"1. His first appearance was to Mary Magdalene, on that early Sunday morning. (Mark 16:9; John 20:10-18).
2. Jesus appeared to the women returning from the tomb. (Matthew 28:9-10).
3. Jesus appeared to two disciples on the road to Emmaus. (Luke 24:13-32; Mark 16:12-13).
4. He appeared to Peter in Jerusalem. (Luke 24:34; 1 Corinthians 15:5).
5. He appeared to his disciples and other followers, and also a second time to the two men from Emmaus, in a locked room in Jerusalem. The apostle Thomas wasn’t there at that time. (Luke 24:36-43; John 20:19-23).
6. A week later, Jesus again appeared to his disciples behind locked doors, and this time Thomas was present. (John 20:24-29).
7. Jesus appeared to seven of his disciples on the shore of the Sea of Galilee. (John 21:1-24).
8. Jesus was seen by 500 believers at one time. (1 Corinthians 15:6).
9. He appeared to James. (1 Corinthians 15:7).
10. He appeared to eleven disciples on a mountain in Galilee. (Matt. 28:18-20).
11. He walked with his disciples along the road to Bethany, on the Mount of Olives, and then ascended into Heaven. (Luke 24:50-53).
12. He was seen by Paul on the road to Damascus. (Acts 9:3-6; 1 Corinthians 15:8)."
100prophecies.org/loj7.htm

Christ did what needed to be done - and, that means He did not ‘call a press conference’ but did show Himself to the people He chose. The authorities had their chance when Christ was with them - but, Christ did not go to sek them out after His Resurrection. There are several messages here … but, from my understanding, Christ’s new missin was getting the message out to as many people as possible.

God bless

 

[emisher]

Hi, Emisher,

Let me comment on one of the items you brought out…

One of the more interesting things about the New Testament is that while Christ died about 33AD, the first book of the New Teatament did not appear until about 51AD as Paul’s letter to the Galatians. The last book (Revelations) was not written until 100AD. With a range from 18 - 67 years when the New Testament was written after the death of Christ - and the time from of 1st Century fishermen, and a tax collector - these documents are most singular examples of impressive writing.

Secondly, look at what happened when Christ raised Lazarus from the grave as recorded in John11:39-53. Here is the text:

39Jesus said, “Take away the stone.” Martha, the dead man’s sister, said to him, “Lord, by now there will be a stench; he has been dead for four days.” 40Jesus said to her, “Did I not tell you that if you believe you will see the glory of God?” 41So they took away the stone. And Jesus raised his eyes and said, “Father, I thank you for hearing me. 42I know that you always hear me; but because of the crowd here I have said this, that they may believe that you sent me.”n 43And when he had said this, he cried out in a loud voice, “Lazarus, come out!” 44The dead man came out, tied hand and foot with burial bands, and his face was wrapped in a cloth. So Jesus said to them, “Untie him and let him go.” 45Now many of the Jews who had come to Mary and seen what he had done began to believe in him.o 46But some of them went to the Pharisees and told them what Jesus had done. 47So the chief priests and the Pharisees convened the Sanhedrin and said, “What are we going to do? This man is performing many signs.p 48If we leave him alone, all will believe in him, and the Romans will come* and take away both our land and our nation.” 49q But one of them, Caiaphas, who was high priest that year,* said to them, “You know nothing, 50nor do you consider that it is better for you that one man should die instead of the people, so that the whole nation may not perish.” 51He did not say this on his own, but since he was high priest for that year, he prophesied that Jesus was going to die for the nation, 52and not only for the nation, but also to gather into one the dispersed children of God.* 53So from that day on they planned to kill him**

So after seeing Lazarus raised 4-days after him being put in the tomb - the Jews plot to kill Chirst! .There just was no reason for Christ to appear to those who were not open to Him. But according to Paul, Christ was not bashful in showing Himself to others. There are several accounts of the Risen Christ appearing to people:

The resurrection of Jesus Christ was the beginning of Christianity. If Christ had not been resurrected and seen by many people (more than 500), Christianity would not exist today. Jesus made twelve appearances after his resurrection:

"1. His first appearance was to Mary Magdalene, on that early Sunday morning. (Mark 16:9; John 20:10-18).
2. Jesus appeared to the women returning from the tomb. (Matthew 28:9-10).
3. Jesus appeared to two disciples on the road to Emmaus. (Luke 24:13-32; Mark 16:12-13).
4. He appeared to Peter in Jerusalem. (Luke 24:34; 1 Corinthians 15:5).
5. He appeared to his disciples and other followers, and also a second time to the two men from Emmaus, in a locked room in Jerusalem. The apostle Thomas wasn’t there at that time. (Luke 24:36-43; John 20:19-23).
6. A week later, Jesus again appeared to his disciples behind locked doors, and this time Thomas was present. (John 20:24-29).
7. Jesus appeared to seven of his disciples on the shore of the Sea of Galilee. (John 21:1-24).
8. Jesus was seen by 500 believers at one time. (1 Corinthians 15:6).
9. He appeared to James. (1 Corinthians 15:7).
10. He appeared to eleven disciples on a mountain in Galilee. (Matt. 28:18-20).
11. He walked with his disciples along the road to Bethany, on the Mount of Olives, and then ascended into Heaven. (Luke 24:50-53).
12. He was seen by Paul on the road to Damascus. (Acts 9:3-6; 1 Corinthians 15:8)."
100prophecies.org/loj7.htm

Christ did what needed to be done - and, that means He did not ‘call a press conference’ but did show Himself to the people He chose. The authorities had their chance when Christ was with them - but, Christ did not go to sek them out after His Resurrection. There are several messages here … but, from my understanding, Christ’s new missin was getting the message out to as many people as possible.

God bless

Yes, you’re right. Good point. The passage of mine that you highlited and commented on I was referring only to the raised people from MATT 27:52 that Atheist girl was questioning.

I wasn’t even thinking about the people Jesus raised in front of the the Jewish leaders. They really did have their chance didn’t they?

And that’s exactly the point I was trying to show that afterwards he only showed himself to those who believed.
God Bless

 

[MindOverMatter2]

so we still cannot examine it

How about looking at the fossil record?

 

[tonyrey]

Hi, Emisher,

Let me comment on one of the items you brought out…

One of the more interesting things about the New Testament is that while Christ died about 33AD, the first book of the New Teatament did not appear until about 51AD as Paul’s letter to the Galatians. The last book (Revelations) was not written until 100AD. With a range from 18 - 67 years when the New Testament was written after the death of Christ - and the time from of 1st Century fishermen, and a tax collector - these documents are most singular examples of impressive writing.

Secondly, look at what happened when Christ raised Lazarus from the grave as recorded in John11:39-53. Here is the text:

39Jesus said, “Take away the stone.” Martha, the dead man’s sister, said to him, “Lord, by now there will be a stench; he has been dead for four days.” 40Jesus said to her, “Did I not tell you that if you believe you will see the glory of God?” 41So they took away the stone. And Jesus raised his eyes and said, “Father, I thank you for hearing me. 42I know that you always hear me; but because of the crowd here I have said this, that they may believe that you sent me.”n 43And when he had said this, he cried out in a loud voice, “Lazarus, come out!” 44The dead man came out, tied hand and foot with burial bands, and his face was wrapped in a cloth. So Jesus said to them, “Untie him and let him go.” 45Now many of the Jews who had come to Mary and seen what he had done began to believe in him.o 46But some of them went to the Pharisees and told them what Jesus had done. 47So the chief priests and the Pharisees convened the Sanhedrin and said, “What are we going to do? This man is performing many signs.p 48If we leave him alone, all will believe in him, and the Romans will come* and take away both our land and our nation.” 49q But one of them, Caiaphas, who was high priest that year,* said to them, “You know nothing, 50nor do you consider that it is better for you that one man should die instead of the people, so that the whole nation may not perish.” 51He did not say this on his own, but since he was high priest for that year, he prophesied that Jesus was going to die for the nation, 52and not only for the nation, but also to gather into one the dispersed children of God.* 53So from that day on they planned to kill him**

So after seeing Lazarus raised 4-days after him being put in the tomb - the Jews plot to kill Chirst! .There just was no reason for Christ to appear to those who were not open to Him. But according to Paul, Christ was not bashful in showing Himself to others. There are several accounts of the Risen Christ appearing to people:

The resurrection of Jesus Christ was the beginning of Christianity. If Christ had not been resurrected and seen by many people (more than 500), Christianity would not exist today. Jesus made twelve appearances after his resurrection:

"1. His first appearance was to Mary Magdalene, on that early Sunday morning. (Mark 16:9; John 20:10-18).
2. Jesus appeared to the women returning from the tomb. (Matthew 28:9-10).
3. Jesus appeared to two disciples on the road to Emmaus. (Luke 24:13-32; Mark 16:12-13).
4. He appeared to Peter in Jerusalem. (Luke 24:34; 1 Corinthians 15:5).
5. He appeared to his disciples and other followers, and also a second time to the two men from Emmaus, in a locked room in Jerusalem. The apostle Thomas wasn’t there at that time. (Luke 24:36-43; John 20:19-23).
6. A week later, Jesus again appeared to his disciples behind locked doors, and this time Thomas was present. (John 20:24-29).
7. Jesus appeared to seven of his disciples on the shore of the Sea of Galilee. (John 21:1-24).
8. Jesus was seen by 500 believers at one time. (1 Corinthians 15:6).
9. He appeared to James. (1 Corinthians 15:7).
10. He appeared to eleven disciples on a mountain in Galilee. (Matt. 28:18-20).
11. He walked with his disciples along the road to Bethany, on the Mount of Olives, and then ascended into Heaven. (Luke 24:50-53).
12. He was seen by Paul on the road to Damascus. (Acts 9:3-6; 1 Corinthians 15:8)."
100prophecies.org/loj7.htm

Christ did what needed to be done - and, that means He did not ‘call a press conference’ but did show Himself to the people He chose. The authorities had their chance when Christ was with them - but, Christ did not go to sek them out after His Resurrection. There are several messages here … but, from my understanding, Christ’s new mission was getting the message out to as many people as possible.

God bless

A superbly succinct account of events!
I would add that probably other appearances of Jesus** to believers** haven’t been recorded because they were too numerous and too personal - like the appearance to His mother… After all it was the most critical period in the history of the fledgling Church.

 

[OMGJ]

This is embarrassing … and, I hate to tell you … but… none of your arguments ‘wash’ … and that is because your logic is crystal clear and defy the illogic used to discredit them!

Sneaky. I like it!

Thanks for your comments. I learned new things from it.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, OMGJ,

Well… how does ironic sound …? Actually, it was I who learned from you…

For someone who has just joined CAF, you have made a number of excellent contributions. Keep up the good work:thumbsup:

From my experience, this is not a typical thread. There are really only a limited number of issues, it you just sort them by major categories you only have two: the numerous proofs of God’s existence from nature, philosophy and history on one side and the, “God does’t exist” statements that divide out into which scientist denies God, how atheists really differ from agnostics and how all of the arguments, “Just are not enough to convince me”. I think that about covers the area.

I really do not see the posts I have presented as trying to convert atheists into at least Deists. Rather, it is just to present the facts as I see them, and then see what they have to say. Statements like, “It lacks logic” are a cop-out mainly because they do not want to face the illogic of the statements they are presenting. Facts are presented, logic used and then it is up to them. After that last breath, the ability to change one’s mind is gone forever.

As I see it, there is still a Flat Earth Society … really! Here is the link:theflatearthsociety.org/cms/ My guess is that there is a large number in the organization that just like the companionship of being in an odd-ball group … but, the material distinction here is that none of them are betting their immortal soul on the Earth being flat. Those who claim ‘we just evolved’ or ‘it just happened and here we are’ have a very limited option - they can only live their lives that way. And, there’s the rub.

Have a great day!

God bless

Sneaky. I like it!

Thanks for your comments. I learned new things from it.

 

[Mystic_Banana]

How about looking at the fossil record?

The fossil record is not the past. Fossils are what presumably a tiny portion of the past has apparently transmuted into. A fossil is not in the same state as it would have previously been in - we can calculate what the being that transmuted into a fossil was, when it lived, whether it knew higher mathematics etc., but we cannot verify these things by examining the past itself…

…that in examining the fossil record is literally doing that is one of our typical pretensions! :ehh: