How do I turn the table on atheists?

[tqualey]

Hi, Whadyamean,

Glad you asked…

The following provides an excellent answer to this and a lot of other issues:

1 Corinthians 13
1 If I speak in the tongues[a] of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast,** but do not have love, I gain nothing.

4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. 11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. 12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love**.

As St. Paul says, Faith is the starting point.

Hope this helps.

God bless

Thanks for the clarification and the link.

And the steps beyond faith are???

 

[samiam1611]

There is no civilization to my knowledge that has ever left a record stating, “There is/are no god(s)”.

There’s been a handful. Some remote tribes in Africa and South America. Explorers and missionaries have found isolated tribes with no belief in god(s), no religion whatsoever. The specific names of these tribes escapes me.
Additionally, there are/were plenty of cultural groups (mini-civilizations I guess) that believed in believe in spirits aka animism but not gods. Believing that rocks and rivers etc have spirits is pretty different from believing god(s) exists. It seems theism is more the result of members of organized society teaching each other about god(s) more than it is unaided knowledge.

 

[ThinkingSapien]

It seems theism is more the result of members of organized society teaching each other about god(s) more than it is unaided knowledge.

While I wouldn’t be surprised to find of the existence of societies in which there were no traces of anything that was can label as gods. But for a society to declare that there are no gods some one would first have to introduce the concept. As a ridiculous sounding illustration if we look back on past societies we will find that there are none that declare there are no Flying Spaghetti Monsters. Though today there are some FSM deniers.

 

[samiam1611]

While I wouldn’t be surprised to find of the existence of societies in which there were no traces of anything that was can label as gods. But for a society to declare that there are no gods some one would first have to introduce the concept. As a ridiculous sounding illustration if we look back on past societies we will find that there are none that declare there are no Flying Spaghetti Monsters. Though today there are some FSM deniers.

Well yeah I mean I think the missionaries found these tribes worshipped no gods. In one particular case, when introduced to the concept, they were interested and open to the idea. But when the missionary told them he had never actually met Jesus, they were like oh forget it! Apparently the missionary left his mission an atheist!
Sorry that I do not remember the name, it’s hard to remember foreign words you know.

 

[ASimon]

It’d be interesting to see or read about these tribes that supposedly exist without any God-beliefs.

To me, the whole idea springs up from a pre-rational era, when we had no idea why natural events in the world happened. When it rained the morning after the tribesmen sacrificed the village goat, it was assumed that sacrificed the village goat caused the rain. So sacrificing goats became the custom to appease the Rain God.

So I have difficulty imagining a remote tribe that manages to exist without believing in ideas or beings that we would consider supernatural.

 

[samiam1611]

It’d be interesting to see or read about these tribes that supposedly exist without any God-beliefs.

To me, the whole idea springs up from a pre-rational era, when we had no idea why natural events in the world happened. When it rained the morning after the tribesmen sacrificed the village goat, it was assumed that sacrificed the village goat caused the rain. So sacrificing goats became the custom to appease the Rain God.

So I have difficulty imagining a remote tribe that manages to exist without believing in ideas or beings that we would consider supernatural.

Found it! The Pirahã in the Amazon. The missionary, Daniel Everett, wrote a book about it called “Don’t Sleep, There Are Snakes.”

I agree with you about the concept of God springing from people wanting an explanation for natural events; the Pirahã are certainly an exception to the norm.

"The Pirahã believed that the world was as it had always been, and that there was no supreme deity”. Furthermore they had no creation myths in their culture. "

They do believe in evil spirits and wear necklaces to ward them off though so I guess they’re not toootttally without supernatural beliefs.

The author says,

"The Pirahã have shown me that there is dignity and deep satisfaction in facing life and death without the comforts of heaven or the fear of hell, and of sailing towards the great abyss with a smile.

And they have shown me that for years I held many of my beliefs without warrant. I have learned these things from the Pirahã, and I will be grateful to them for as long as I live."



Here is some of those other tribes

 

[tonyrey]

The author says,

"The Pirahã have shown me that there is dignity and deep satisfaction in facing life and death without the comforts of heaven or the fear of hell, and of sailing towards the great abyss with a smile.

And they have shown me that for years I held many of my beliefs without warrant. I have learned these things from the Pirahã, and I will be grateful to them for as long as I live."

It is the height of absurdity to base one’s interpretation of reality on the beliefs of a primitive tribe. The author has obviously switched from one blind faith to another!

 

[tonyrey]

It’d be interesting to see or read about these tribes that supposedly exist without any God-beliefs.

To me, the whole idea springs up from a pre-rational era, when we had no idea why natural events in the world happened.

Now of course you have a natural explanation for everything - even the way your mind works! Like a molecular mechanism?

 

[tonyrey]

While I wouldn’t be surprised to find of the existence of societies in which there were no traces of anything that was can label as gods. But for a society to declare that there are no gods some one would first have to introduce the concept. As a ridiculous sounding illustration if we look back on past societies we will find that there are none that declare there are no Flying Spaghetti Monsters. Though today there are some FSM deniers.

But of course you belong to those who have absolute faith in the Magical Material Monster which has succeeded in creating everything - including the molecular mechanism inside your skull which has stumbled upon the solution to the Supreme Mystery!

 

[tonyrey]

I’m reading the book the godless delusion, and it’s very helpful. I was just wondering if there is a good set of questions to ask atheists to maybe help them understand their view holds no ground and constantly contradict each other.

Quite simple! You simply use their own arguments against them - with suitable substitutions of words…

 

[Bobber90]

It is the height of absurdity to base one’s interpretation of reality on the beliefs of a primitive tribe. The author has obviously switched from one blind faith to another!

No doubt others have suggested that you might rethink the term ‘primitive’ as it has unnecessarily derogatory connotations, and note that we all see reality through the lens of our own ‘tribe’ anyway. Culture and historical specificity/difference are not just things that happen to other people, as against our supposed rational, civilised normality.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Samiam1611,

What do you say you try that one again… Virtually everyone is familiar with the Pre-Colombian Indian civilizations of the Maya, Olmec, Mixtec, Aztecs and Nahua who left records of their gods and accounts from the Spanish Conquestidores who did their best to destroy not only their gods but their civilizations, too (but, that’s another story). So, if you want to claim that there are groups out there who claim “There is no god(s)” - not that we were unable to find any records of their god(s) - then let’s see a link… or credibility may be also escaping you…

Concerning your dismissal of the god(s) of ancient people because of animism or that rocks and rivers have spirits - is rather curious. The idea is that they believed in something outside of themselves that was greater than they were - and they showed respect if not our-right reverence… and maybe there is also evidence of worship here, too.

Seriously, the issue is that ancient peoples all over the world formed different civilizations, but did have some type of belief in a Force or Energy Source or God … or gods that they acknowledged. The challenge which you need to meet is that you have positive documentation that at least one parlticular ancient tribe established that “There is no god(s)”. And, I am quite serious when I tell you I really do not think that such a group has ever existed.

And, this is what I am saying about the ‘unaided mind’ can come to an understanding that there is a God or gods.

God bless

There’s been a handful. Some remote tribes in Africa and South America. Explorers and missionaries have found isolated tribes with no belief in god(s), no religion whatsoever. The specific names of these tribes escapes me.
Additionally, there are/were plenty of cultural groups (mini-civilizations I guess) that believed in believe in spirits aka animism but not gods. Believing that rocks and rivers etc have spirits is pretty different from believing god(s) exists. It seems theism is more the result of members of organized society teaching each other about god(s) more than it is unaided knowledge.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Samiam1611,

I apologize - I did not see your post … and apparently this group (here is a Wiki link: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pirah%C3%A3_people ) does not believe in a lot of things that many other primatives believe in.

So, I guess if there is one group (and I did not know about this group) there could be another such group… and it looks like the author has found a couple of mroe. Truly, given the write up in Wiki - I am amazed that this Pirah group has lasted for any length of time.

But, I think you would agree that such group(s) are quite the exception - with most claiming some diety (or dieties) and incorporating this belief into their culture.

God bless

Found it! The Pirahã in the Amazon. The missionary, Daniel Everett, wrote a book about it called “Don’t Sleep, There Are Snakes.”

I agree with you about the concept of God springing from people wanting an explanation for natural events; the Pirahã are certainly an exception to the norm.

"The Pirahã believed that the world was as it had always been, and that there was no supreme deity”. Furthermore they had no creation myths in their culture. "

They do believe in evil spirits and wear necklaces to ward them off though so I guess they’re not toootttally without supernatural beliefs.

The author says,

"The Pirahã have shown me that there is dignity and deep satisfaction in facing life and death without the comforts of heaven or the fear of hell, and of sailing towards the great abyss with a smile.

And they have shown me that for years I held many of my beliefs without warrant. I have learned these things from the Pirahã, and I will be grateful to them for as long as I live."



Here is some of those other tribes

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Tonyrey,

Yes, I agree … this guy sounds like his grasp on reality is a bit strained to begin with if he is going to follow this tribe’s view of reality!

God bless

It is the height of absurdity to base one’s interpretation of reality on the beliefs of a primitive tribe. The author has obviously switched from one blind faith to another!

 

[tonyrey]

Hi, Tonyrey,

Yes, I agree … this guy sounds like his grasp on reality is a bit strained to begin with if he is going to follow this tribe’s view of reality!

God bless

He is straining out a gnat and swallowing a camel! For him one tribe represents the truth… :whacky:

God bless

 

[tonyrey]

No doubt others have suggested that you might rethink the term ‘primitive’ as it has unnecessarily derogatory connotations, and note that we all see reality through the lens of our own ‘tribe’ anyway. Culture and historical specificity/difference are not just things that happen to other people, as against our supposed rational, civilised normality.

“Primitive” simply means “characteristic of early ages or of an early state of human development”. I’m sure you wouldn’t base any firm conclusions on their prescientific views… Why should they have greater insight into the metaphysical aspect of reality?

Your remark about “supposed” presupposes that you transcend “Culture and historical specificity/difference”. On what basis?

 

[Bobber90]

“Primitive” simply means “characteristic of early ages or of an early state of human development”. I’m sure you wouldn’t base any firm conclusions on their prescientific views… Why should they have greater insight into the metaphysical aspect of reality?

Your remark about “supposed” presupposes that you transcend “Culture and historical specificity/difference”. On what basis?

I would have preferred to define primitive another way, but however it is done it seems to mean a culture that is deficient in something we have, be it technology, scientific understanding, or even ‘civilisation’. Deficiency is associated with lesser value, and I do not believe that this is the best way to talk about people we know little about.

Also, ‘early stages’ requires that there are stages, and to say that our contemporaries are somehow of the past relegates non-western/non-modern inheritances to second place in the most insidious marginalising way, as if the present is no legitimate place for these societies. We do not own the present.

I do not transcend the culture I am a part of, that is why I am quoting from it - many westerners have supposed we are more civilised, rational and better than others, and then spectacularly failed by their own standards.

(Here is the book about the Piraha, it looks like they have a rich culture and heritage amazon.co.uk/Dont-Sleep-There-are-Snakes/dp/1846680409/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1323432137&sr=8-1)

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Bobber90,

Before long you will be explaining the ‘meaning of meaning’ here…

I think my basic statement stands - the ‘unaided human mind’ can (but obviously this is not 100%) come to a knowledge of God or god or god(s). The vast majority of cultures have an identifiable diety or set of dieties. And, I guess there is one for sure … and one that is a ‘gimme’ that actually states, "There is no god(s)’.

Now, if you do not want to address this - fine. But, I do want to make sure that I am clear on this item. There is the overwhelming weight of evidence in favor of virtually no tribe claiming Atheism - or even Agnosticism - as the characteristic religion of their culture. One really has to work very, very hard to look around and say, “Yeah, it just happened!” and let it go at that.

God bless

I would have preferred to define primitive another way, but however it is done it seems to mean a culture that is deficient in something we have, be it technology, scientific understanding, or even ‘civilisation’. Deficiency is associated with lesser value, and I do not believe that this is the best way to talk about people we know little about.

Also, ‘early stages’ requires that there are stages, and to say that our contemporaries are somehow of the past relegates non-western/non-modern inheritances to second place in the most insidious marginalising way, as if the present is no legitimate place for these societies. We do not own the present.

I do not transcend the culture I am a part of, that is why I am quoting from it - many westerners have supposed we are more civilised, rational and better than others, and then spectacularly failed by their own standards.

(Here is the book about the Piraha, it looks like they have a rich culture and heritage amazon.co.uk/Dont-Sleep-There-are-Snakes/dp/1846680409/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1323432137&sr=8-1)

 

[Whadyamean]

Hi, Bobber90,

Before long you will be explaining the ‘meaning of meaning’ here…

God bless

The Meaning of Meaning Ogden and Richards, (3rd ed.), McGraw-Hill, 1997. A good read, if you are capable of it,

 

[ThinkingSapien]

Some months ago there was a thread asking whether or not a child raised in an environment absent from various concepts of gods would end up “discovering” one. Something that became apparent early on in the thread is at what point do you classify something the child had come up with as being a god. The word itself is extremely flexible. If a child came up with an imaginary friend that knows what people are thinking would that constitute a concept of a super natural being approaching omniscience? The hypothetical experiment started to look like something that was more telling of a person doing the observation.

So I’m inclined to think that there will not be found any cultures for which it can be said that no one in the culture has ever come up of a concept of a being (anthropomorphized, animal, elements of nature, or something else) whose abilities or behaviours were beyond those which had been observed. When this starts to concept a demonstration of knowledge of a specific god is another matter for which I don’t think there’s an answer that is independent of the cultural influences of the person examining the scenario.