How do Jews disagree with Jesus as the messiah?

[Kam_Fanaian]

My dear friend Micah,

By your logic then, Jesus was a false Messiah…

for He did not “rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem”. For scripture says, that when the Messiah arises that the Temple will be rebuilt AND He will rule with a sword, an anointed King of Israel, descended from King David AND He will bring peace to the world and end all war…

So tell me, how do you “know” Jesus is the Messiah, and not a false prophet in sheeps clothing?

God bless my friend

Kam

 

[Sen_McGlinn]

… For scripture says, that when the Messiah returns that** they shall look upon him whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him as for an only son.**
(Zech.12:10) The Jewish people did not mourn for Baha’u’llah.

.

It doesn’t say, they will mourn for the Baha’u’llah, but rather, they will mourn him whom they have pierced – the crucified Jesus Christ.

It has indeed happened. A significant part of the Jewish communities in 19th century Iran converted to the Bahai Faith, which means also, they accepted the station of Christ, and learned to mourn his suffering and crucifixion, and rejoice that he lives.

The number of Jews and crypto-Muslims (Jews converted to Islam by force) who became Bahais was significant enough to be noticed by the anti-Bahai idealogues, who now claim that the Bahai religion was founded by Jews.

 

[504Katrin]

The Messiah ben David is by definition that man who fulfills all six of the criterion in the Jewish scriptures. From a Jewish perspective what makes Christian claims that Jesus was the Messiah ben David so remarkable, is that he did not fulfill a single one of the six criterion.

On the other hand, there is no concept in Judaism that faith in the Messiah ben David leads to personal salvation. There is not a single verse in the Torah or prophets that states or implies that belief in the Messiah ben David is required for or related to personal salvation. The salvation program for Jews is to love God, fear God and keep His commandments.

The six authentic Jewish Messianic criteria are:

1. have the correct genealogy by being descended from King David and king Solomon
2. be anointed King of Israel
3. return the Jewish people to Israel
4. rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem
5. bring peace to the world and end all war
6. bring knowledge of God to the world

We see that each of the six Jewish messianic criteria is empirically verifiable and therefore faith is not required to determine the identity of the Jewish Messiah ben David. We can see if the Temple has been rebuilt, if all the Jews have returned to Israel, if the entire world believes in God and follows Torah, if the entire world is at peace.

Christianity couldn’t overcome the defect of their leader not fulfilling a single one of the six criteria, so they created the concept of “faith” in the Christian leader to overcome this defect. Of course, they were still stuck with the non fulfillment of the criteria for the Jewish Messiah ben David, so they also came up with the concept, which has no basis in Jewish scripture, of the “second coming”. So Christians say, Jesus didn’t have to fulfill the six criterion of the Jewish Messiah ben David ( (which ironically are the way to identify the Messiah ben David), and they say you can put off the fulfillment of these criterion, until Jesus comes back to life on earth a second time. However, if this is true, can’t anyone claim that a beloved deceased relative was a good and righteous man and is in fact the Messiah ben David?. Of course, They’ll have to wait until he returns to know if they are correct in their assumption, however they can claim to have “faith” that they are in fact correct.

“…but if anyone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also…”

So Christianity found itself rejected by Jews, since from a Jewish perspective it was clear that Jesus did not fulfill the criteria of the Messiah ben David. In as much as he was rehashing Jewish scriptures, that too was not impressive to the Jews.

In this regard, it should be mentioned that Jesus is mentioned in the Torah as a test of the Jewish people’s faith to God and the eternal covenant:

Devarim - Deuteronomy - Chapter 13

א אֵת כָּל-הַדָּבָר, אֲשֶׁר אָנֹכִי מְצַוֶּה אֶתְכֶם–אֹתוֹ תִשְׁמְרוּ, לַעֲשׂוֹת: לֹא-תֹסֵף עָלָיו, וְלֹא תִגְרַע מִמֶּנּוּ. {פ}

ב כִּי-יָקוּם בְּקִרְבְּךָ נָבִיא, אוֹ חֹלֵם חֲלוֹם; וְנָתַן אֵלֶיךָ אוֹת, אוֹ מוֹפֵת. ג וּבָא הָאוֹת וְהַמּוֹפֵת, אֲשֶׁר-דִּבֶּר אֵלֶיךָ לֵאמֹר: נֵלְכָה אַחֲרֵי אֱלֹהִים אֲחֵרִים, אֲשֶׁר לֹא-יְדַעְתָּם–וְנָעָבְדֵם. ד לֹא תִשְׁמַע, אֶל-דִּבְרֵי הַנָּבִיא הַהוּא, אוֹ אֶל-חוֹלֵם הַחֲלוֹם, הַהוּא: כִּי מְנַסֶּה יְהוָה אֱלֹהֵיכֶם, אֶתְכֶם, לָדַעַת הֲיִשְׁכֶם אֹהֲבִים אֶת-יְהוָה אֱלֹהֵיכֶם, בְּכָל-לְבַבְכֶם וּבְכָל-נַפְשְׁכֶם. ה אַחֲרֵי יְהוָה אֱלֹהֵיכֶם תֵּלֵכוּ, וְאֹתוֹ תִירָאוּ; וְאֶת-מִצְו‍ֹתָיו תִּשְׁמֹרוּ וּבְקֹלוֹ תִשְׁמָעוּ, וְאֹתוֹ תַעֲבֹדוּ וּבוֹ תִדְבָּקוּן.

1. Everything I command you that you shall be careful to do it. You shall neither add to it, nor subtract from it.
2. If there will arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of a dream, and he gives you a sign or a wonder,
3. and the sign or the wonder of which he spoke to you happens, [and he] says, “Let us go after other gods which you have not known, and let us worship them,”
4. you shall not heed the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of a dream; for the Lord, your God, is testing you, to know whether you really love the Lord, your God, with all your heart and with all your soul.
5. You shall follow the Lord, your God, fear Him, keep His commandments, heed His voice, worship Him, and cleave to Him.

Jesus is presented in the Christian scriptures as a prophet who performed signs, wonders and miracles. The concept of the son of God and the trinity are gods that the Jewish people did not know.

God tests the Jews to keep the eternal covenant between Him and the Jewish people. From a Jewish perspective, for a Jew to “believe” in Jesus is a failure of God’s test.
Now we know that the Gospel of Mark (who was not an eyewitness) was the first synoptic Gospel since Matthew copied about 90% of the Gospel of Mark (600 out of 660 verses) and Luke copied over 50% of the Gospel of Mark. Now if Matthew really was a disciple and a witness to events why would he need to copy Mark and rely so heavily of Marks version of events ? (why would he refer to himself in the third person in Matthew 9:9?). Which leaves us with John which contains material not found in Mark, contradicts events reported in Matthew and Luke and contains none of the" historical material" contained only in Matthew and Luke such as infancy and childhood.To make matters even more complicated, whenever they reported "historical material"l not found in Mark (on whose Gospel they obviously relied) and although they were not eyewitnesses, they contradict each other and make alterations and
The lack of sources outside of Christianity has led to reliance on forged passages from Josephus and even trying to interpret Talmudic passages as somehow referring to the Jesus figure. Now Jesus may have existed historically but there is little or no credible evidence supporting his existence.

The Jewish prophets have explicitly stated,that in the Messianic Era, Gentiles will stop being blinded to the truth and realize they have inherited falsehood:

"Hashem (God) my Strength, my Stronghold and my Refuge on the day of distress! To You (God) nations will come from the ends of the earth and say: "It was all falsehood that our ancestors inherited, futility that has no purpose. Can a man make gods for himself - they are not gods! (Jeremiah 16:19-20)
יט יְהוָה עֻזִּי וּמָעֻזִּי, וּמְנוּסִי–בְּיוֹם צָרָה; אֵלֶיךָ, גּוֹיִם יָבֹאוּ מֵאַפְסֵי-אָרֶץ, וְיֹאמְרוּ אַךְ-שֶׁקֶר נָחֲלוּ אֲבוֹתֵינוּ, הֶבֶל וְאֵין-בָּם מוֹעִיל.
כ הֲיַעֲשֶׂה-לּוֹ אָדָם, אֱלֹהִים; וְהֵמָּה, לֹא אֱלֹהִים.

{In the Messianic Era} “Nations will walk by your [the Jewish People’s] light and kings by the brilliance of your shine” Isaiah 60:3
וְהָלְכוּ גוֹיִם, לְאוֹרֵךְ; וּמְלָכִים, לְנֹגַהּ זַרְחֵךְ.

"I will set you [the Jewish People] for a covenant to the people, for a light to the nations, to open blind eyes [in the Messianic Age] Isaiah 42:6-7
וְאֶתֶּנְךָ לִבְרִית עָם–לְאוֹר גּוֹיִם.
לִפְקֹחַ, עֵינַיִם עִוְרוֹת

Thank you for your time and your circumstantial and elaborate response
I think it is important that we all get to understand each other better.

What I already knew and understood before I read your post was that

• Jesus isn’t from the tribe of David. It’s the mother that determines which tribe you’re from and not the father, and while Joseph was a descandant of David, Mother Mary wasn’t. However, she got pregnant from the Holy Spirit (that alone must already sound funny to a Jew) so she was pregnant from G-d Himself.
• the Messiach isn’t the son of G-d, and Jesus is believed to be the son of G-d. The Trinity only adds to the fact that Jews can’t by no means accept Jesus as the Messiach.
• the temple is to be rebuilt. The temple seems to be of tremendous importance. I’m attanding a Jewish school once a week and at least once a day the mora says something along the lines of “… back then, when the temple still stood”

So your points make sense and I for one would never ever, never ever ever try to drag a Jew away from his / her belief, even though as a Catholic, I always get told that we’re to bring the Gospel across. Both of our faiths are so different and there’s no denying in this. I must say though, and this is what I told my Parish Priest pretty bluntly, I’d rather hang out with faithful Jews and chat with them about G-d than with some of those Chrsitins in our Parish, as some faithful Jews that I know are much more faithful than some of those Christians.

I once made a personal experience in church and so since then it’s impossible for me to not believe in Jesus and the Eucharist. I made wonderful experiences with my class though and so I know that everyone can contribute to bring peace and happiness to this earth. We once discussed the coming of the Messiach and everyone but me was looking forward to it, as of course for me the coming of the Messiach means that everything written in the revelation will happen, and when that happens, I hope not be here anymore but safely in heaven And even then, our mora was so considerate and friendly and even comforted me and said that the Messiach probably won’t come in our lifetime. I really wish that some Christians were as loving people as the Jews that I know.
Maybe it’s the salvation that makes some Christians cease searching for answers and looking for G-d? At least lots of Christians believe that they’re saved by faith alone. I used to be one of them, too, long ago, so I understand this way of thinking. Could be an answer to the question, maybe.

Last but not least I want to apologize for having cut out entire paragraphs of your original post, but I received a message saying that the text entered was too long and had to be shortened. So this is why it happened. I did not cut out any quotes of the Tanach though, as I know how holy it is to you.

 

[mercytruth]

Baha’u’lah was a mortal human being as I stated, Jesus Christ when he returns will not die as did Baha’u’lah. Baha’u’lah’s is buried in Mt.Carmel and his tomb is with us. The tomb of Jesus Christ became empty after three days.

Furthermore the whole earth will see Jesus Christ when he returns. This did not happen when Baha’u’lah was alive.

Behold, he cometh with the clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they which pierced him; and all the tribes of the earth shall mourn over him. Even so, Amen.
(Rev.1:7)

Changing the solar calendar to 19 months of 19 days each with 4 days of rest in order to fulfill some sort of mystical meaning to the number 19 is not in accordance with either the Hebrew, Christian, or Muslim scriptures. In fact, this is one of the signs of the antichrist:

He shall speak words against the Most High,
and shall wear out the saints of the Most High,
and shall think to change the times and the law

(Daniel 7:5)

There has been an abundant source of false prophets and messiahs that have arisen out of the mysiticism of both the Kabbalah and of Sufism. Bab delved into Sufi mysticism. Furthermore, not all the followers of Bab became disciples of Baha’u’lah. For Baha’u’lah to claim to be the glory of the Lord is megalomania, or blasphemy.

May the Creator of us all remove the blindness, and let His light shine.

Micah.

 

[Kam_Fanaian]

Hi Micah,

You are directing this thread in the direction of the Resurrection thread we are both involved in. Maybe, to respect to the OP, we can resume that exploration in that thread in the Sacred Scripture forum.

However, for the purposes of the subject of this thread, I would have little difficulty in finding amazing parallels between the arguments you are presenting, and the arguments presented by the Pharisees during Jesus’ time.

May God assist you in your journey towards true salvation

Kam

 

[chosen_people]

chosen people;9555259:

Are there genealogy records that go back to Kings David and Solomon so as to prove this correctness?

Micah.

The Messiah ben David must be Jewish, from the tribe of Judah,from the seed of King David and from the seed of Solomon. To be Jewish you must be born to a Jewish mother. Your mother could have converted to Judaism before you were born but then you have the problem of the tribe of Judah and being descended through David and Solomon.

How can we possibly know today if someone has the proper genealogies? Certainly Jews have been shown to have common genealogical markings and Cohenim can trace themselves back to a single ancestor some three thousand years ago. However, how can we be sure that someone is descended through David and Solomon?

Now my own opinion is if anyone fulfills the other five criterion of the Messiah ben David I for one will take on face value his claim of proper genealogy

 

[mercytruth]

mercytruth;9555844:

The Messiah ben David must be Jewish, from the tribe of Judah,from the seed of King David and from the seed of Solomon. To be Jewish you must be born to a Jewish mother. Your mother could have converted to Judaism before you were born but then you have the problem of the tribe of Judah and being descended through David and Solomon.

How can we possibly know today if someone has the proper genealogies? Certainly Jews have been shown to have common genealogical markings and Cohenim can trace themselves back to a single ancestor some three thousand years ago. However, how can we be sure that someone is descended through David and Solomon?

Now my own opinion is if anyone fulfills the other five criterion of the Messiah ben David I for one will take on face value his claim of proper genealogy

Thank you for your response. Yes, one may be able to re-establish the priesthood through these genealogical markers, but I have not heard of Davidic genealogical markings.

Would it be possible for you to answer my other question, regarding your statement:

**On the other hand, there is no concept in Judaism that faith in the Messiah ben David leads to personal salvation. There is not a single verse in the Torah or prophets that states or implies that belief in the Messiah ben David is required for or related to personal salvation. The salvation program for Jews is to love God, fear God and keep His commandments. **

I was wondering, the prophet Habakkuk says, “The just shall live by his faith”
(Hab.2:4)

Of whose faith is the prophet speaking?

Todah rabah.

Micah

 

[chosen_people]

Thank you for your time and your circumstantial and elaborate response
I think it is important that we all get to understand each other better.

What I already knew and understood before I read your post was that

• Jesus isn’t from the tribe of David. It’s the mother that determines which tribe you’re from and not the father, and while Joseph was a descandant of David, Mother Mary wasn’t. However, she got pregnant from the Holy Spirit (that alone must already sound funny to a Jew) so she was pregnant from G-d Himself.

.

Under Jewish law, tribal affiliation is through the birth father only (see Numbers 34:14,Leviticus 24:10).Since Jesus is supposed by Christians to have had no human father, he had no tribal affiliation. He therefore was not from the tribe of Judah and therefore could not be the Messiah ben David.That is before we even get to the conflicting genealogies of Matthew and Luke which conflict with the genealogies in Chronicles and with each other. Luke for instance has Jesus descended through Nathan and not Solomon which would also immediately eliminate Jesus as the Messiah ben David.

 

[504Katrin]

Under Jewish law, tribal affiliation is through the birth father only (see Numbers 34:14,Leviticus 24:10).Since Jesus is supposed by Christians to have had no human father, he had no tribal affiliation. He therefore was not from the tribe of Judah and therefore could not be the Messiah ben David.That is before we even get to the conflicting genealogies of Matthew and Luke which conflict with the genealogies in Chronicles and with each other. Luke for instance has Jesus descended through Nathan and not Solomon which would also immediately eliminate Jesus as the Messiah ben David.

ouch. Yes, it’s through the father. Thanks for the correction

 

[chosen_people]

chosen people;9557539:

Thank you for your response. Yes, one may be able to re-establish the priesthood through these genealogical markers, but I have not heard of Davidic genealogical markings.

Would it be possible for you to answer my other question, regarding your statement:

**On the other hand, there is no concept in Judaism that faith in the Messiah ben David leads to personal salvation. There is not a single verse in the Torah or prophets that states or implies that belief in the Messiah ben David is required for or related to personal salvation. The salvation program for Jews is to love God, fear God and keep His commandments. **

I was wondering, the prophet Habakkuk says, “The just shall live by his faith”
(Hab.2:4)

Of whose faith is the prophet speaking?

Todah rabah.

Micah

The meaning of the term “וצדיק באמונתו יחיה” or “the righteous person shall live through his faith” has a totally different meaning when seen in the context of Judaism as to its meaning in Christianity.

I often give the example of an imaginary religion that believes that God only came into existence with the beginning of the creation. As proof of their belief they point to the Jewish scriptures and to the first word “בראשית” often translated as “In the beginning”. You see, they say to the Jew, your own Torah supports our contention that there was a beginning to God and that God began with creation. This of course is an anathema to any Jew whose basic core belief is that God is eternal. Even the unpronounceable name of God (often written as Jehovah or YHWH) is made up up of the Hebrew verbs of “was”, “is” and “will be.”

To R. Simlai in the Talmud, this verse
signified the quintessence of mitzvot. He taught:
613 precepts were communicated to Moses. Came David and reduced them to 11 (Ps. 15). Isaiah came and reduced them to 6 principles (Is. 33:15-16). Micah reduced them to three: It has been told
to thee O man, what is good and what the Lord requires of thee; only to do justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly before the Lord
(Micah 6:8). But it is Habakkuk who came and based them all on
one principle: the righteous shall live by their faith [emunah] (Makkot 24a,b)

In the Jewish interpretation, “emunah” (“faith”) stands for steadfastness and loyalty to God and the mitzvot (see: Exodus 17:2 to understand the meaning of “emunah” ). This is the basis for keeping the commandments, their essence redacted to a single expression.

Christianity and Paul twist this around in a way no less extreme than our example of using the word “Bereishit” to undercut the basis tenet of Judaism that God is eternal. Christianity takes the basis for keeping the commandments, their essence redacted to this single expression, and says, no you don’t have to keep the commandments, you don’t have to follow Torah, which is the fundamental basis of Judaism, it is enough to have “faith” as interpreted by Christianity.

 

[mercytruth]

mercytruth;9557571:

The meaning of the term “וצדיק באמונתו יחיה” or “the righteous person shall live through his faith” has a totally different meaning when seen in the context of Judaism as to its meaning in Christianity.

I often give the example of an imaginary religion that believes that God only came into existence with the beginning of the creation. As proof of their belief they point to the Jewish scriptures and to the first word “בראשית” often translated as “In the beginning”. You see, they say to the Jew, your own Torah supports our contention that there was a beginning to God and that God began with creation. This of course is an anathema to any Jew whose basic core belief is that God is eternal. Even the unpronounceable name of God (often written as Jehovah or YHWH) is made up up of the Hebrew verbs of “was”, “is” and “will be.”

To R. Simlai in the Talmud, this verse
signified the quintessence of mitzvot. He taught:
613 precepts were communicated to Moses. Came David and reduced them to 11 (Ps. 15). Isaiah came and reduced them to 6 principles (Is. 33:15-16). Micah reduced them to three: It has been told
to thee O man, what is good and what the Lord requires of thee; only to do justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly before the Lord
(Micah 6:8). But it is Habakkuk who came and based them all on
one principle: the righteous shall live by their faith [emunah] (Makkot 24a,b)

In the Jewish interpretation, “emunah” (“faith”) stands for steadfastness and loyalty to God and the mitzvot (see: Exodus 17:2 to understand the meaning of “emunah” ). This is the basis for keeping the commandments, their essence redacted to a single expression.

Christianity and Paul twist this around in a way no less extreme than our example of using the word “Bereishit” to undercut the basis tenet of Judaism that God is eternal. Christianity takes the basis for keeping the commandments, their essence redacted to this single expression, and says, no you don’t have to keep the commandments, you don’t have to follow Torah, which is the fundamental basis of Judaism, it is enough to have “faith” as interpreted by Christianity.

Your answer to my question is excellent. I especially appreciate your quotation from the Talmud: "But it is Habakkuk who came and based them all on
one principle: **the righteous shall live by their faith [emunah] "(**Makkot 24a,b)
and also your definition of ‘emunah’ (faith).

So, eventhough the apostle Paul reduced righteousness to this one principle of faith, your contention is that his interpretation of faith, and the interpretation of faith according to Judaism differs.

Now if you will, allow me to quote from an English translation of the Pesher of Habakkuk that was among the Dead Sea Scrolls regarding the Teacher of Righteousness.

Of them the words of Habakkuk 2:4 ("the righteous shall live by his faith") were spoken: “Their interpretation concerns all the doers of the law in the house of Judah, whom God will save from the house of judgment because of their toil and their faith in the Teacher of Righteousness” (1Qp Hab. 8:1–3).

jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/judaica/ejud_0002_0019_0_19666.html

Apparently, followers of the Teacher of Righeousness live by their faith in the Teacher of Righeousness who lives by his faith.

Variant translations of the Apostle Paul when referring to this righteousness by faith, speak of the followers of Jesus Christ who live by his faith. This would be a re-affirmation of the commentary translation of Habakkuk found among the Dead Sea Scrolls.

So being a disciple of our Teacher of Righteousnes would be one who is living in the faith of the Messiah Jesus, the one who kept the law perfectly.

For the Orthodox out there you might be interested in reading Father Ted’s blog on this subject.

frted.wordpress.com/2012/07/03/the-faith-of-jesus-christ/

Once again, thank you very much

Shalom

Micah

 

[504Katrin]

The meaning of the term “וצדיק באמונתו יחיה” or “the righteous person shall live through his faith” has a totally different meaning when seen in the context of Judaism as to its meaning in Christianity.

I often give the example of an imaginary religion that believes that God only came into existence with the beginning of the creation. As proof of their belief they point to the Jewish scriptures and to the first word “בראשית” often translated as “In the beginning”. You see, they say to the Jew, your own Torah supports our contention that there was a beginning to God and that God began with creation. This of course is an anathema to any Jew whose basic core belief is that God is eternal. Even the unpronounceable name of God (often written as Jehovah or YHWH) is made up up of the Hebrew verbs of “was”, “is” and “will be.”

To R. Simlai in the Talmud, this verse
signified the quintessence of mitzvot. He taught:
613 precepts were communicated to Moses. Came David and reduced them to 11 (Ps. 15). Isaiah came and reduced them to 6 principles (Is. 33:15-16). Micah reduced them to three: It has been told
to thee O man, what is good and what the Lord requires of thee; only to do justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly before the Lord
(Micah 6:8). But it is Habakkuk who came and based them all on
one principle: the righteous shall live by their faith [emunah] (Makkot 24a,b)

In the Jewish interpretation, “emunah” (“faith”) stands for steadfastness and loyalty to God and the mitzvot (see: Exodus 17:2 to understand the meaning of “emunah” ). This is the basis for keeping the commandments, their essence redacted to a single expression.

Christianity and Paul twist this around in a way no less extreme than our example of using the word “Bereishit” to undercut the basis tenet of Judaism that God is eternal. Christianity takes the basis for keeping the commandments, their essence redacted to this single expression, and says, no you don’t have to keep the commandments, you don’t have to follow Torah, which is the fundamental basis of Judaism, it is enough to have “faith” as interpreted by Christianity.

not to open a can of worms, and I’m not asking you these questions but I’m just saying as this has been driving me crazy since I’ve been studying my faith. And it’s a HUGE problem for me, and actually exactly the issue I’ve been struggling with. I asked a Rebbe but in his kindness he only responded that we all had different missions which is true of course and I will have to bring this up before my Parish Priest eventually:

How comes, that on the one hand we have Jewish Scriptures and Christian scriptures put together in one book, and we’re told that both books make our faith, and on the other hand we don’t follow Torah rules *and **on top *of these Torah rules follow Christian rules? Let me put it differently. It’s not that we don’t follow Torah rules, it’s even more confusing. It’s that we follow SOME of them and SOME we do not follow. In the Torah or five books of Mose we are clearly told that we’re not to eat bloody meet for instance. Where did Jesus say that this commandment has changed? I bet you the Pope eats it, or Bishops eat it, or Priests and other Christians eat it, too, so we don’t follow this rule anymore for whatever the reason! However, we for instance follow the commandments given to Mose at mount Sinai, right? How comes we don’t dismiss these commandments also? How comes we don’t just say that the only commandments that Jesus has given us are to love G-d and our neighbors like we love ourselves? So how am I supposed to know what to do? I asked a Priest why we moved the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday and I do understand the reason (we celebrate Jesus’ resurrection that happened on a Sunday so we moved it) but how comes we can create things all of a sudden?

So the question is, aren’t we Chrstians maybe kindof picking things? If I offend anyone I apologize and I hope I didn’t, I’m just searching for the truth, just like everyone else.

 

[chosen_people]

not to open a can of worms, and I’m not asking you these questions but I’m just saying as this has been driving me crazy since I’ve been studying my faith. And it’s a HUGE problem for me, and actually exactly the issue I’ve been struggling with. I asked a Rebbe but in his kindness he only responded that we all had different missions which is true of course and I will have to bring this up before my Parish Priest eventually:

How comes, that on the one hand we have Jewish Scriptures and Christian scriptures put together in one book, and we’re told that both books make our faith, and on the other hand we don’t follow Torah rules *and **on top *of these Torah rules follow Christian rules? Let me put it differently. It’s not that we don’t follow Torah rules, it’s even more confusing. It’s that we follow SOME of them and SOME we do not follow. In the Torah or five books of Mose we are clearly told that we’re not to eat bloody meet for instance. Where did Jesus say that this commandment has changed? I bet you the Pope eats it, or Bishops eat it, or Priests and other Christians eat it, too, so we don’t follow this rule anymore for whatever the reason! However, we for instance follow the commandments given to Mose at mount Sinai, right? How comes we don’t dismiss these commandments also? How comes we don’t just say that the only commandments that Jesus has given us are to love G-d and our neighbors like we love ourselves? So how am I supposed to know what to do? I asked a Priest why we moved the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday and I do understand the reason (we celebrate Jesus’ resurrection that happened on a Sunday so we moved it) but how comes we can create things all of a sudden?

So the question is, aren’t we Chrstians maybe kindof picking things? If I offend anyone I apologize and I hope I didn’t, I’m just searching for the truth, just like everyone else.

The answer lies in the reasons behind the rejection of the Law, of Torah, by Christianity. Laws of course had existed even prior to the Jews. What was unique to the Jews was to evolve laws on a religious basis that did not deal only with man’s relationship to God but with man’s relationship to other men and the placing of those laws on a Divine religious basis.

The Law had to be passed down from father to son, the people involved had to understand the nuances between an ox that had behaved badly in the past as opposed to an unexpected act, or differentiate whether the ox was being kept without consideration or with consideration. In other words, it required a society with universal male literacy that was highly intelligent. This was fine as long as Torah was confined to the Jews. However Christianity wished for universality, to reach everyman, to reach the pagan masses who were at this time invariably illiterate.

The solution demanded that Christianity reject Torah and the intellectual discussions of Judaism for a dogmatic religion with a set series of beliefs that could be learned by rote and by their acceptance make the person a Christian adherent. It required the building of a hierarchy that could develop, decide on and spread those dogmatic beliefs.

 

[504Katrin]

The answer lies in the reasons behind the rejection of the Law, of Torah, by Christianity. Laws of course had existed even prior to the Jews. What was unique to the Jews was to evolve laws on a religious basis that did not deal only with man’s relationship to God but with man’s relationship to other men and the placing of those laws on a Divine religious basis.

The Law had to be passed down from father to son, the people involved had to understand the nuances between an ox that had behaved badly in the past as opposed to an unexpected act, or differentiate whether the ox was being kept without consideration or with consideration. In other words, it required a society with universal male literacy that was highly intelligent. This was fine as long as Torah was confined to the Jews. However Christianity wished for universality, to reach everyman, to reach the pagan masses who were at this time invariably illiterate.

The solution demanded that Christianity reject Torah and the intellectual discussions of Judaism for a dogmatic religion with a set series of beliefs that could be learned by rote and by their acceptance make the person a Christian adherent. It required the building of a hierarchy that could develop, decide on and spread those dogmatic beliefs.

We didn’t exclude the Torah from the Christian Bible, though, and we read from it at church.
I will have to ask the Priest about this. If you’re right with your assumptions right there ^ the Priest will have some explaining to do. I will be back to this thread soon and keep you posted

 

[Kam_Fanaian]

The answer lies in the reasons behind the rejection of the Law, of Torah, by Christianity. Laws of course had existed even prior to the Jews. What was unique to the Jews was to evolve laws on a religious basis that did not deal only with man’s relationship to God but with man’s relationship to other men and the placing of those laws on a Divine religious basis.

The Law had to be passed down from father to son, the people involved had to understand the nuances between an ox that had behaved badly in the past as opposed to an unexpected act, or differentiate whether the ox was being kept without consideration or with consideration. In other words, it required a society with universal male literacy that was highly intelligent. This was fine as long as Torah was confined to the Jews. However Christianity wished for universality, to reach everyman, to reach the pagan masses who were at this time invariably illiterate.

The solution demanded that Christianity reject Torah and the intellectual discussions of Judaism for a dogmatic religion with a set series of beliefs that could be learned by rote and by their acceptance make the person a Christian adherent. It required the building of a hierarchy that could develop, decide on and spread those dogmatic beliefs.

This is a very interesting answer chosen people, thankyou

When you say “evolve laws”, were you referring to the reality that Divine law must evolve to meet the demands of the evolving consciousness of humanity?

Kam

 

[JohnVIII]

I have always understood that Jesus was NOT the Jewish messiah. The Jewish Messiah was going to overthrow Rome and return the Jewish state to its former glory as it was under the reign of David. Jesus did not do that, so he is not the Messiah they were looking for.

I agree with your assessment. One other reason too is that the Messiah must be pure, and it was believed that because he suffered on a cross he had to be a sinner, and therefore could not be the Messiah.

 

[SacredCatholic]

The Messiah ben David is by definition that man who fulfills all six of the criterion in the Jewish scriptures. From a Jewish perspective what makes Christian claims that Jesus was the Messiah ben David so remarkable, is that he did not fulfill a single one of the six criterion.

This particular “Jewish perspective” wasn’t invented until well after Rabbinical Judaism has been established, this argument you’re presenting was first used around the 12th century. The reason Jews didn’t accept Christ was due to a false presupposition they had about the Messiah liberating them from the Romans, the fact Jesus didn’t care too much about earthly politics made them angry. The fact He rebuked the Pharisees who perverted the Mosaic Faith made them upset. Jews should accept Jesus due to John the Baptist alone, who was regarded as a Prophet or a Holy man by the Pharisees (which is why they couldn’t denounce Jesus until John’s death) and this is actually confirmed by Josephus.

On the other hand, there is no concept in Judaism that faith in the Messiah ben David leads to personal salvation. There is not a single verse in the Torah or prophets that states or implies that belief in the Messiah ben David is required for or related to personal salvation. The salvation program for Jews is to love God, fear God and keep His commandments.

1. have the correct genealogy by being descended from King David and king Solomon

Jesus was a descendant of King David in every sense of the word, He can claim lineage from both parents. Both biological and legal. Do you believe He was of virgin birth? If not, then He was a biological descendant of Joseph. If He was the literal Son of God, as Catholics claim, then He is most definitely the Messiah. You can’t have it both ways.
Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

1. be anointed King of Israel

Jesus was anointed King of Israel
Mark 14:3-9
King James Version (KJV)
3 And being in Bethany in the house of Simon the leper, as he sat at meat, there came a woman having an alabaster box of ointment of spikenard very precious; and she brake the box, and poured it on his head.
4 And there were some that had indignation within themselves, and said, Why was this waste of the ointment made?
5 For it might have been sold for more than three hundred pence, and have been given to the poor. And they murmured against her.
6 And Jesus said, Let her alone; why trouble ye her? she hath wrought a good work on me.
7 For ye have the poor with you always, and whensoever ye will ye may do them good: but me ye have not always.
8 She hath done what she could: she is come aforehand to anoint my body to the burying.
9 Verily I say unto you, Wheresoever this gospel shall be preached throughout the whole world, this also that she hath done shall be spoken of for a memorial of her.​

“Are you the king of the Jews?” asked Pilate. “Yes, it is as you say,” Jesus replied.
Mark 15:2

1. return the Jewish people to Israel

I don’t understand how anyone could believe in a physical interpretation for this prophecy. According to genealogy, just about everyone is a descendant of King Charlemagne, which can be proved by statistics alone. Likewise, the people of Israel are like the Stars of the Sky (Genesis 26:4) and the Lost Tribes, plus Judah, have went to the four corners of the Earth (ISAIAH 11:12). Again, referring to the Charlemagne principle, just about everyone is a descendant of Abraham and Isaac by now. Especially when you consider how many Jews converted to Christianity and Islam in ancient days. So how can they ever possibly be physically united?
Galatians 4:21-31
21 Tell me, you who want to be under the law, are you not aware of what the law says? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the slave woman and the other by the free woman. 23 His son by the slave woman was born according to the flesh, but his son by the free woman was born as the result of a divine promise.
24 These things are being taken figuratively: The women represent two covenants. One covenant is from Mount Sinai and bears children who are to be slaves: This is Hagar. 25 Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children. 26 But the Jerusalem that is above is free, and she is our mother. 27 For it is written:
“Be glad, barren woman,
you who never bore a child;
shout for joy and cry aloud,
you who were never in labor;
because more are the children of the desolate woman
than of her who has a husband.”[a]
28 Now you, brothers and sisters, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29 At that time the son born according to the flesh persecuted the son born by the power of the Spirit. It is the same now. 30 But what does Scripture say? “Get rid of the slave woman and her son, for the slave woman’s son will never share in the inheritance with the free woman’s son.”** 31 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we are not children of the slave woman, but of the free woman.

1. rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem

This prophecy is obviously spiritual rather than physical as well. See here:
Jeremiah 31:30-34
New International Version (NIV)
30 Instead, everyone will die for their own sin; whoever eats sour grapes—their own teeth will be set on edge.
31 “The days are coming,” declares the Lord,
“when I will make a new covenant
with the people of Israel
and with the people of Judah.
32 It will not be like the covenant
I made with their ancestors
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they broke my covenant,
though I was a husband to[a] them,**”
declares the Lord.
33 “This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel
after that time,” declares the Lord.
**“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts. ****
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
34 No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,”
declares the Lord.
“For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more.”
And again this is reaffirmed by Jesus:
John 2:19-22
New International Version (NIV)
19 Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days.”
20 They replied, “It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and you are going to raise it in three days?” 21 But the temple he had spoken of was his body. 22 After he was raised from the dead, his disciples recalled what he had said. Then they believed the scripture and the words that Jesus had spoken.

1. bring peace to the world and end all war

Obviously a dual-fulfillment, one being the second coming of Christ where He sets up a physical Kingdom. And the other being the spiritual Kingdom of Christ that has no war and is at peace. The presupposed Messiah of the Jews would rule Israel with a military and army, hardly “peace” and “end to all wars.”

1. bring knowledge of God to the world

http://www.reformation.org.s1.incloak.com/large-spanish-empire.jpg/img] Is there anymore to really say about this one?
Edit: No images allowed, but it’s pictures of various Christian Empires at their peak.

Christianity couldn’t overcome the defect of their leader not fulfilling a single one of the six criteria,

Because you have misinterpreted prophecies that were obviously meant to be spiritual. As I have actually been able to show you with Scripture. If you seriously think all the sons of Israel can be united in Israel again (which is an impossibility, even for Judah alone) then you’re simply not thinking straight.

so they created the concept of “faith” in the Christian leader to overcome this defect.

No, blind faith is irrational. Priori faith is necessary and built on logic, reason. “Faith” isn’t just blindly saying, “I think Jeezez is the God!” It’s looking at the world from a historical and philosophical perspective and using a bit of common sense. I asked myself, was it a coincidence that the arrival of Jesus and the ministry of the early Apostles coincided with the death of Judaism in 70 AD? Was it a coincidence that animal sacrifices ended while the Apostles were still on the planet? (Daniel 9:23-27) Was it really unbiblical that Jews would reject God? It happens frequently throughout the Old Testament, and is in fact prophesied to happen again. (Psalm 118:22: The stone the builders rejected has become the capstone**

 

[SacredCatholic]

Of course, they were still stuck with the non fulfillment of the criteria for the Jewish Messiah ben David, so they also came up with the concept, which has no basis in Jewish scripture, of the “second coming”.

Really? There is no tradition of multiple Messiahs or “Dual Messiahs” in the Jewish religion? I guess all those Rabbis and laymen that I talked to got it all wrong and you’re right. I guess Daniel’s prophecy of the Messiah being “cut off” was wrong too. Oh and the common Jewish interpretation of King Cyrus as an early Messiah must be wrong too. Again, you’re simply making things up if you think there is no basis in Judaism for multiple Messiahs or returning Messiahs. Try again.

So Christians say, Jesus didn’t have to fulfill the six criterion of the Jewish Messiah ben David ( (which ironically are the way to identify the Messiah ben David), and they say you can put off the fulfillment of these criterion, until Jesus comes back to life on earth a second time.

Seeing as how the genealogy records were lost (presumably in the Temple’s destruction circa 70 AD) we don’t know who is a Son of David anymore. Going back to what I said about Charlemagne, it is likely most Jews and people in general are David’s sons. But again, that’s an assumption. There will never be a confirmed member of the House of David. No genetics can prove such a thing either. It was either Jesus was/is the Messiah or that’s it.

it should be mentioned that Jesus is mentioned in the Torah as a test of the Jewish people’s faith to God and the eternal covenant:
Devarim - Deuteronomy - Chapter 13
א אֵת כָּל-הַדָּבָר, אֲשֶׁר אָנֹכִי מְצַוֶּה אֶתְכֶם–אֹתוֹ תִשְׁמְרוּ, לַעֲשׂוֹת: לֹא-תֹסֵף עָלָיו, וְלֹא תִגְרַע מִמֶּנּוּ. {פ}
ב כִּי-יָקוּם בְּקִרְבְּךָ נָבִיא, אוֹ חֹלֵם חֲלוֹם; וְנָתַן אֵלֶיךָ אוֹת, אוֹ מוֹפֵת. ג וּבָא הָאוֹת וְהַמּוֹפֵת, אֲשֶׁר-דִּבֶּר אֵלֶיךָ לֵאמֹר: נֵלְכָה אַחֲרֵי אֱלֹהִים אֲחֵרִים, אֲשֶׁר לֹא-יְדַעְתָּם–וְנָעָבְדֵם. ד לֹא תִשְׁמַע, אֶל-דִּבְרֵי הַנָּבִיא הַהוּא, אוֹ אֶל-חוֹלֵם הַחֲלוֹם, הַהוּא: כִּי מְנַסֶּה יְהוָה אֱלֹהֵיכֶם, אֶתְכֶם, לָדַעַת הֲיִשְׁכֶם אֹהֲבִים אֶת-יְהוָה אֱלֹהֵיכֶם, בְּכָל-לְבַבְכֶם וּבְכָל-נַפְשְׁכֶם. ה אַחֲרֵי יְהוָה אֱלֹהֵיכֶם תֵּלֵכוּ, וְאֹתוֹ תִירָאוּ; וְאֶת-מִצְו‍ֹתָיו תִּשְׁמֹרוּ וּבְקֹלוֹ תִשְׁמָעוּ, וְאֹתוֹ תַעֲבֹדוּ וּבוֹ תִדְבָּקוּן.

1. Everything I command you that you shall be careful to do it. You shall neither add to it, nor subtract from it.
2. If there will arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of a dream, and he gives you a sign or a wonder,
3. and the sign or the wonder of which he spoke to you happens, [and he] says, “Let us go after other gods which you have not known, and let us worship them,”
4. you shall not heed the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of a dream; for the Lord, your God, is testing you, to know whether you really love the Lord, your God, with all your heart and with all your soul.
5. You shall follow the Lord, your God, fear Him, keep His commandments, heed His voice, worship Him, and cleave to Him.
   Jesus is presented in the Christian scriptures as a prophet who performed signs, wonders and miracles. The concept of the son of God and the trinity are gods that the Jewish people did not know.

Again, you forgot to actually quote the verses that gave us the knowledge to differentiate between a false prophet and a real prophet. I’ll post them since you left it out:
Deuteronomy 18:20-22
King James Version (KJV)
20 But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.
21 And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the Lord hath not spoken?
22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the Lord, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.
So what prophecies did Jesus fulfill? Let’s see:
Mark 13:1-4
King James Version (KJV)
13 And as he went out of the temple, one of his disciples saith unto him, Master, see what manner of stones and what buildings are here!
2 And Jesus answering said unto him, Seest thou these great buildings? there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives over against the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew asked him privately,
4 Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled?​

“As for what you see here, the time will come when not one stone will be left on another; every one of them will be thrown down.” Luke 21:6
And seeing how these were written prior to 70 AD (I’ll get into that later) we can conclude Jesus is confirmed as a true prophet. Also, you grossly misrepresented Christ’s miracles. For one, Jesus didn’t go around performing miracles so people would believe in Him. When He healed two blind men, He told them to be quiet about what had happened. When the Pharisees were demanding a sign or miracle so they could be convinced, He replied:
A wicked and adulterous generation looks for a miraculous sign, but none will be given it except the sign of Jonah." Jesus then left them and went away. (Matthew 16:4)
As for your, “the concept of the trinity was something the Jewish people did not know.” That is simply false. Most secularists believe the early Israelites to be henotheists, monaltrists, and possibly Polytheistic. There is no reason to believe the early Israelites couldn’t have believed in a Triune God. (Not to be confunsed with a Tritheistic God, although secularists would probably believe that to be a possiblity as well)​

Anyways, one last thing. Your assertions about the Gospels being forgery and Jesus being a myth is simply wrong. I’ll start with the Gospels. For one, it’s likely to believe the book of Acts were written in the early 60’s AD. As they don’t mention the most important parts of early Christianity that occurred later in that decade, such as the death of James, Paul, & Peter. Or the Fire of Rome, or the persecution of the Christians. Also, the destruction of the Jewish Temple in 70 AD is not mentioned whatsoever. And here’s the important part, the book of Acts references Luke. (Acts 1:1-3) And since Luke wasn’t an eye witness, we know he was getting information from earlier Christians. The earliest “mentioning” of the Gospels is done by St. Ignatius, who quoted parts of Matthew. And he died in 115 AD, so we know Matthew has had to be in circulation for quite a while. Most believe Mark/Matthew were written prior to 70 AD, 50 AD makes sense in the context of things. Especially if Luke used them to help write his own Gospel.
Now, as for your debunked claim that Jesus was nothing more than a legend/myth, let me inform you it is virtually unanimous among scholars that there was a Jesus of Nazareth. It may even be at 100% now that these two burial boxes were found ( christianpost.com.s1.incloak.com/news/brother-of-jesus-burial-box-still-a-mystery-after-court-decision-71504/ and catholicculture.org.s1.incloak.com/news/headlines/index.cfm?storyid=15138 ) Your claim could have stood 10 years ago, but now it’s simply laughed at. Even Christopher Hitchens, Dawkins, Harris believe Jesus to have been a real person, and they would have every reason not to.
You claim Josephus was a forgery and he was the only historical account of Christ is wrong. It’s likely Christians tampered with Josephus’s writings. But there’s a 10th century Arabic version that presents a more secular view of Jesus and confirms Him as a historical figure. Besides Josephus we have accounts of Jesus by Tacitus, the Babylonian Talmud, Mara bar Sarapion, Suetonius, Pliny the Younger, Lucian of Samosata, Thallus, Dead Sea Scrolls, Celsus, & Acts of Pilate. Please look at each one of those before claiming something as absurd as Jesus not existing.

 

[WuXiaoXia]

This thread really makes my head spin with the countless replies and heaving emotion.

My understanding-as many others have pointed out in this thread- is that Jesus in no way fulfilled the Jewish concept of the Moshiach. The NT attempted to weave the Hebrew Bible prophecies together in order to legitimize the new scripture but it proved to be quite awkward and incorrect with regard to who the Moshiach was supposed to be.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

I’ve often found with jews that since Christ has not as of yet fulfilled every single prophecy he is not to be believed to the jew so I think there is a better way to convince someone who is jewish that Christ has fulfilled the prophecies, not by the prophecies themselves but by his greatest action which affirms his divinity and that he is truely from God. His ressurection.

The ressurection I think there is good evidence for historically, but I think even the Jew who rejects Christ has to admit if Christ had the experience of ressurection as found in Daniel 12 and believed by the apostles, as a physically incorrupt body they would have to admit that Christ is true. If he were risen to glory before anyone else it is hard for me to imagine any jew saying well that doesn’t matter as we must beg the question. What is God doing raising a false prophet from the dead into that glorified state?

This is ultimately what I think the apostles Based their teaching on that Christ has fulfilled the prophecies, in the ressurection which is the main reason we believe in him. That this ensures everything he has said will come to pass and all future prophecies and past prophecies to be fulfilled are met and defended within the context of ressurection.