How do Jews disagree with Jesus as the messiah?

[504Katrin]

Meltz, by the way I am not trying to change anyone’s mind; just having a fun debate… I really enjoy talking to you guys.

Same here This thread is sooooooo much fun! I read this thread with so much joy and interest, even when I’m tired I follow this thread and its info and links provided. Lol, and then I feel like that one guy that fell out of the window lol

Explanation to everyone who doesn’t know all of the Christian scriptures. After Jesus had died and ascended to heaven for good, everyone met in the upper chamber where Peter was preaching and breaking the bread. It must have been hot that day, and the chamber must have been crowded as people were even sitting on the window sills. Peter must have talked for a long time, and I picture everyone curiously listening like dry sponges that wanted to suck everything up he said. Then, when it was late, someone who still tried to follow even though he was tired like no tommorrow, fell asleep at last, and he fell out of the open window

Sometimes I’m so tired, but this thread is so interesting that I even try to follow after long workdays. And this is when I feel like that guy that fell out of the window Btw., people went outside to see if he was fine and nothing happened to him.

 

[YeshuaOrHaOlam]

You are reflecting the understanding of many of the early church fathers, who referred to these appearances as 'Christophanies/Theophanies. For "we know that no one has seen God at any time, the only-begotten Son who is in the bosom of the Father, he has declared him."

I think we have similar understandings

shalom

micah

Shalom again Micah,

I used to hold a trinitarian stance until I began to heavily research the Hebraic mode of thought, and specifically, the way in which Yeshua references himself, and his relationship to The Father.

It just seems to fit so much easier that way, and it is far more Hebraic and true to the roots of the Israelite faith. ( My opinion of course )

Hope you’re having a great Shabbat,

Shalom Aleichem

 

[504Katrin]

As to the suffering servant… I want to say that Mose took Israels’ sins on his shoulders more than once. I can see his face when he desperately ran down that hill dropping the tablets. He spent another 40 days on there praying in order to attone for their sin.

 

[studychristian]

I believe Jewish people at the time, thought the Messiah would overthrow the Roman Empire, Jesus is Peace, not war(Matthew 26:52).

 

[mercytruth]

Shalom again Micah,

I used to hold a trinitarian stance until I began to heavily research the Hebraic mode of thought, and specifically, the way in which Yeshua references himself, and his relationship to The Father.

It just seems to fit so much easier that way, and it is far more Hebraic and true to the roots of the Israelite faith. ( My opinion of course )

Hope you’re having a great Shabbat,

Shalom Aleichem

Hebraic thinking is the only way to approach one’s understanding of the holy scriptures properly. This is why I so much appreciate the (name removed by moderator)ut from Jewish people with their interpretations of the Tanakh along with their Talmudic traditions.

I love to read those early church writings which reflect to some degree that sort of thinking. There are not that many, but one has a ‘sense’ of them when reading. Usually such writings will have more quotations from the Tanakh then from the NT. The two ways of the Didache is good example.

Shalom Aleichem also,

micah

 

[joe370]

Same here This thread is sooooooo much fun! I read this thread with so much joy and interest, even when I’m tired I follow this thread and its info and links provided. Lol, and then I feel like that one guy that fell out of the window lol

Explanation to everyone who doesn’t know all of the Christian scriptures. After Jesus had died and ascended to heaven for good, everyone met in the upper chamber where Peter was preaching and breaking the bread. It must have been hot that day, and the chamber must have been crowded as people were even sitting on the window sills. Peter must have talked for a long time, and I picture everyone curiously listening like dry sponges that wanted to suck everything up he said. Then, when it was late, someone who still tried to follow even though he was tired like no tommorrow, fell asleep at last, and he fell out of the open window

Sometimes I’m so tired, but this thread is so interesting that I even try to follow after long workdays. And this is when I feel like that guy that fell out of the window Btw., people went outside to see if he was fine and nothing happened to him.

 

[meltzerboy]

Not really in my humble opinion. Of course I am not an expert; not even close…just employing simple reasoning. The context of Israel as the servant, is always about God, depending on their disposition, helping them and redeeming the servant Israel, God’s first born son - Israel.

How will God help and redeem Israel (God’s servant)?

The suffering servant of Chapter 50 and 53. It’s pretty cool stuff…

For example:

**Chapter 49 Isaiah/Israel is the sevant from vs 2 to 4
**
Listen to me, you islands;
hear this, you distant nations:
Before I was born the Lord called me;
from my mother’s womb he has spoken my name.
2 He made my mouth like a sharpened sword,
in the shadow of his hand he hid me;
he made me into a polished arrow
and concealed me in his quiver.
3 He said to me, “You are my servant,
Israel, in whom I will display my splendor.”
4 But I said, “I have labored in vain;
I have spent my strength for nothing at all.
Yet what is due me is in the Lord’s hand,
and my reward is with my God.”

**Messianic servant - Light to the Gentiles
**
5 And now the Lord says—
he who formed me in the womb to be his servant
to bring Jacob back to him
and gather Israel to himself,
for I am[a] honored in the eyes of the Lord
and my God has been my strength—
6 he says:
“It is too small a thing for you to be my servant
to restore the tribes of Jacob
and bring back those of Israel I have kept.
I will also make you a light for the Gentiles,
that my salvation may reach to the ends of the earth.”

7 This is what the Lord says—
the Redeemer and Holy One of Israel—
to him who was despised and abhorred by the nation,
to the servant of rulers:
“Kings will see you and stand up,
princes will see and bow down,
because of the Lord, who is faithful,
the Holy One of Israel, who has chosen you.”

Jews interpret verse 6 as meaning that G-d will make Israel a light for the Gentiles and the mission that Jews have is to spread the word of G-d by their own moral example. However, let’s assume instead that you are right and verse 6 refers to the Messiah, and now look at verse 7. If the word nation refers to Israel, then Isaiah appears to be saying that the Messiah will be rejected by Israel (his own people), but he will be glorified by the Gentiles, that is, kings and princes of other nations. I believe that is the Christian interpretation. Is that your reading as well?

 

[InJesusItrust]

Shalom Joe,

Thank you for your kind words.

My basic take on the trinity, though not in accordance with Catholicism ( not here to argue or disrespect ), is that the G-d we encounter in the Old Testament, the G-d who spoke to Moshe at the burning bush, the G-d who led the Israelites out of captivity by a cloud and pillar of fire, the One who proclaimed, “I AM,” is none other than Yeshua Himself, before he walked the earth and became flesh.

He is the G-d of Israel, but not God Most High. However, one must be careful when saying this because, I still believe that Yeshua is “one” with the Father, that if you have seen Him, you have seen the Father, that He (Yeshua) was the One through whom creation became, etc, etc.

For more on how I came to this conclusion, I recommend reading anything by Margaret Barker, for starters. Very intriguing indeed.

May you have a Blessed day,

Shalom Aleichem

Friend, there are a few things that don’t make sense this way. Who is Jesus praying to and saying to “Your will be done, not mine”? Jesus calls Himself the Son of God, and the Father says from heaven “This is my son. Listen to him.” Finally, he tells his apostles to baptize in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

 

[YeshuaOrHaOlam]

Friend, there are a few things that don’t make sense this way. Who is Jesus praying to and saying to “Your will be done, not mine”? Jesus calls Himself the Son of God, and the Father says from heaven “This is my son. Listen to him.” Finally, he tells his apostles to baptize in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Shalom again,

My answer would be that Yeshua was praying to God Most High, who we call The Father. The Father spoke at His baptism, yes. The baptism command does not confirm trinitarian doctrine, but merely, on the face of it, shows that Yeshua works with The Father, and The Father sends The Holy Spirit to anyone he chooses to reveal himself.

Shalom Aleichem

 

[joe370]

Jews interpret verse 6 as meaning that G-d will make Israel a light for the Gentiles and the mission that Jews have is to spread the word of G-d by their own moral example.

However, let’s assume instead that you are right and verse 6 refers to the Messiah, and now look at verse 7. If the word nation refers to Israel, then Isaiah appears to be saying that the Messiah will be rejected by Israel (his own people), but he will be glorified by the Gentiles, that is, kings and princes of other nations. I believe that is the Christian interpretation. Is that your reading as well?

“It is too small a thing for you to be my servant
to restore the tribes of Jacob
and bring back those of Israel I have kept.
I will also make you a light for the Gentiles,
that my salvation may reach to the ends of the earth.”

We know that some Jews did reject Jesus, in the first century, while others did not e.g. apostles and their successors. What I glean from those verses is the fact that the Servant’s vocation will be not only the restoration of Israel but the conversion of the whole world. Jesus came to draw the whole world into His heavenly Kingdom.

 

[RobbyS]

Friend, there are a few things that don’t make sense this way. Who is Jesus praying to and saying to “Your will be done, not mine”? Jesus calls Himself the Son of God, and the Father says from heaven “This is my son. Listen to him.” Finally, he tells his apostles to baptize in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

The divine triad became the Trinity through the redefinition of the word “substance.” by the Council of Nicaea. But the teaching of the Church was not changed. I think it is forgotten how much Judaism, especially western Judaism was affected by its encounter with Greek thought, as in the instance of Philo. Also, Palestine was a land in which the Greek and the Semitic world mingled, to the extent that Jesus grew up in a town close to a town where Greek was spoken, and probably he spoke the language himself. Thus he may have been able to converse directly with Pilate. I understand the Philo himself, despite his attachment to Plato, was a severely observant Jew. That the supposed “hellenism” of John’s Gospel was in fact more in line with the non-pharisee thinking of the day and certainly was consistant with Alexandrine Judaism. But apart from all that, despite all the talk of prophesy, all the take of the Messiah, the thing to keep in mind is that all the Gospels tell us that the Resurrection was something they could not predict. As out of step with their thinking and “blew their minds.” as it would blow my mind --and almost stop my heart-- if my mother were to appear before me today and hand me a glass of lemonade. What happened was something totally beyond their experience.

 

[InJesusItrust]

Here is a problem. Jesus gave Peter the keys and promised that the gates of Hell will not prevail against the Church. He also said that whoever would reject the apostle would reject Him, and the apostles had given authority to their successors. They insist on a trinity, and so do the popes. We can see that scripturally the trinity is supported, and to reject it would be because you have your own opinion. But Jesus said that we must accept the kingdom as children.

If the Church teaches it we ought to accept it.

 

[504Katrin]

I have a question to this “Feed your animals first and then get yourself something to eat” statement. Is this a Jewish teaching, or is it a Christian teaching as well, or maybe both?

I remember my Mom told me that her Mom told her that we were to feed the animals first. We once received a pair of geese sometime in fall, and they were meant to be eaten on Christmas. They did get fed before we were eating.

Needless to say though, with two little girls in the house, the geese survived Christmas, even had fledglings the following spring, and lived happily ever after

 

[joe370]

Here is a problem. Jesus gave Peter the keys and promised that the gates of Hell will not prevail against the Church. He also said that whoever would reject the apostle would reject Him, and the apostles had given authority to their successors. They insist on a trinity, and so do the popes. We can see that scripturally the trinity is supported, and to reject it would be because you have your own opinion. But Jesus said that we must accept the kingdom as children.

If the Church teaches it we ought to accept it.

Only if we have faith that God continues to guide His church into all truth, which of course I do,

 

[YKohen]

What does “for he bore the sin of many and made intercession for the transgressors” mean? If Israel is the suffering servant, in the context of other verses from Isaiah, then Israel bore the sin of its people makes sense in that Israel was punished for its own transgressions. However, what then does “intercession for the transgressors” mean? Perhaps a contorted explanation can be used that G-d so loves His suffering servant (Israel) that he therefore showed mercy toward His people. Or might this signify that Israel bore the sins of the transgressors from other nations? How is all this interpreted based on the Hebrew language? Further, could Jesus be the human personnification and distillation of the suffering servant (Israel) according to this passage? Apart from the contextual evidence of the meaning of “suffering servant,” do Jewish Biblical scholars deal with the interpretation of this whole passage in any other way?

Since it has been a couple of days, let me start by quoting a few relevant verses again:

(44:1) “1 Yet now hear, O Jacob My servant, and Israel, whom I have chosen”
(44:2) “Fear not, O Jacob My servant, and thou, Jeshurun, whom I have chosen”
(49:3) “'Thou art My servant, Israel, in whom I will be glorified.”
(52:13) “Behold My servant shall prosper,”

And there are more like that. First, Israel is THE servant- the same servant mentioned throughout Isaiah. There is no other. it isn’t going to all of a sudden change to a different servant.

The only question to be asked at this point is how we bear the sin- not who else could.

For that, there could be many different answers- but the starting point MUST be that it is talking about the nation of Israel; and no other.

One thought that I had is in line with what Maimonides wrote in the Mishneh Torah, Laws of Repentence; something that is widely learned as we approach Rosh Hashannah and Yom Kippur.

Man is judged by G-d, but so are societies. So are nations, and so is the world. We don’t live in a vacuum. There is a very strong belief in Judaism that man is responsible for his fellow.

What is the role of the nation of Israel in the world? To be a “light unto the nations”; to show the world the way to ethical monotheism. If we aren’t doing our job correctly (and when have we, as a nation, achieved that level?), then we bear responsibility that the world isn’t as it should be. That might be a little strong, but is we are doing our best, then perhaps G-d will show us mercy. But if we aren’t, then perhaps He won’t.

As to Jewish scholars in general, I haven’t checked. I’m sure that there are different approaches. You can see Rashi’s approach here:

chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/15984/showrashi/true

The Midrash tells us that there are 70 “faces” to the Torah. There are many valid ways of understanding- some more literal and some more profound- but all valid according to the legitimate methods of Torah study handed to us.

The starting point is that they must be within the correct framework. I think that if you can’t read the verses in the original language in which they were written, there’s no way you can catch the linguistic nuances. Similarly, there must be contextual consistency. If there’s a word or phrase that is repeated numerous times, to start saying that it means something different in 1 place than it did in many other places simply doesn’t work.

That’s what I also pointed out above about “alma”; what the Christians claim is “virgin” in one place, but even they themselves translate as “young woman” in other places.

 

[YKohen]

When I bring up the tradition, I mean that sometimes people are consumed by inertia itself. To convert would often bring shame to the family and separate an individual from his parents…

Think of it like this: If G-d took you across the Red Sea dryshod, and you heard His voice at Mt. Sinai, would you call it “inertia” to cling to Him?

As I have pointed out, besides that, from our perspective, the Christian interpretations are extremely problematic from so many perspectives.

 

[YKohen]

So, you read this as:

Who has believed our message
and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
Israel like a root out of dry ground.
Israel had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
nothing in Israel’s appearance that we should desire Israel.
Israel was despised and rejected by mankind,
a man (Israel) of suffering, and familiar with pain.
Like one from whom people hide their faces
Israel was despised, and we held Israel in low esteem.

Surely Israel took up our pain
and bore our suffering,
yet we considered Israel punished by God,
stricken by him, and afflicted.
But Israel was pierced for our transgressions,
Israel was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was on Israel,
and by Israels wounds we are healed.
We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to our own way;
and the Lord has laid on Israel
the iniquity of **us all.
**
Israel was oppressed and afflicted,
yet Israel did not open his mouth;
Israel was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
and as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
so Israel did not open his mouth.
By oppression and judgment Israel was taken away.
Yet who of Israel’s generation protested?
For Israel was cut off from the land of the living;
for the transgression of my people Israel was punished. **Israel **
was assigned a grave with the wicked,
and with the rich in his death,
though Israel had done no violence,
**nor was any deceit in Israel’s mouth.
**
Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush Israel and cause Israel to suffer,
and though the Lord makes Israel’s life an offering for sin,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand.
After Israel has suffered,
Israel will see the light of life and be satisfied;
by Israels’ knowledge my righteous servant will justify many,
and Israel will bear their iniquities.
Therefore I will give Israel a portion among the great, and Israel will
divide the spoils with the strong, because Israel poured out his life unto death,
and was numbered with the transgressors.
For Israel bore the sin of many,
and made intercession for the transgressors.

I read it as it is. The servant here is the same servant mentioned earlier and later in Isaiah; The nation of Israel. As was stated explicitly in the language.

 

[InJesusItrust]

Think of it like this: If G-d took you across the Red Sea dryshod, and you heard His voice at Mt. Sinai, would you call it “inertia” to cling to Him?

As I have pointed out, besides that, from our perspective, the Christian interpretations are extremely problematic from so many perspectives.

Scriptures claim that the Pharisees witnessed many miraculous deeds and still wanted to kill Jesus and cling to their scholarly traditions. Do you believe that only God can give life to the dead?

 

[mercytruth]

Since it has been a couple of days, let me start by quoting a few relevant verses again:

(44:1) “1 Yet now hear, O Jacob My servant, and Israel, whom I have chosen”
(44:2) “Fear not, O Jacob My servant, and thou, Jeshurun, whom I have chosen”
(49:3) “'Thou art My servant, Israel, in whom I will be glorified.”
(52:13) “Behold My servant shall prosper,”

And there are more like that. First, Israel is THE servant- the same servant mentioned throughout Isaiah. There is no other. it isn’t going to all of a sudden change to a different servant.

The only question to be asked at this point is how we bear the sin- not who else could.

For that, there could be many different answers- but the starting point MUST be that it is talking about the nation of Israel; and no other.

One thought that I had is in line with what Maimonides wrote in the Mishneh Torah, Laws of Repentence; something that is widely learned as we approach Rosh Hashannah and Yom Kippur.

Man is judged by G-d, but so are societies. So are nations, and so is the world. We don’t live in a vacuum. There is a very strong belief in Judaism that man is responsible for his fellow.

What is the role of the nation of Israel in the world? To be a “light unto the nations”; to show the world the way to ethical monotheism. If we aren’t doing our job correctly (and when have we, as a nation, achieved that level?), then we bear responsibility that the world isn’t as it should be. That might be a little strong, but is we are doing our best, then perhaps G-d will show us mercy. But if we aren’t, then perhaps He won’t.

As to Jewish scholars in general, I haven’t checked. I’m sure that there are different approaches. You can see Rashi’s approach here:

chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/15984/showrashi/true

The Midrash tells us that there are 70 “faces” to the Torah. There are many valid ways of understanding- some more literal and some more profound- but all valid according to the legitimate methods of Torah study handed to us.

The starting point is that they must be within the correct framework. I think that if you can’t read the verses in the original language in which they were written, there’s no way you can catch the linguistic nuances. Similarly, there must be contextual consistency. If there’s a word or phrase that is repeated numerous times, to start saying that it means something different in 1 place than it did in many other places simply doesn’t work.

That’s what I also pointed out above about “alma”; what the Christians claim is “virgin” in one place, but even they themselves translate as “young woman” in other places.

Why does the Midrash say there are 70 ‘faces’ to the Torah. Is it because the spirit of Moses was given to seventy of the elders of Israel?

thank you and shalom

micah

 

[YKohen]

I have a question to this “Feed your animals first and then get yourself something to eat” statement. Is this a Jewish teaching, or is it a Christian teaching as well, or maybe both?

I have no idea about it also being a Christian teaching, but it is codified in Jewish law. I have purposely gotten my kids different types of pets to instill this value in them.

I remember my Mom told me that her Mom told her that we were to feed the animals first. We once received a pair of geese sometime in fall, and they were meant to be eaten on Christmas. They did get fed before we were eating.

Needless to say though, with two little girls in the house, the geese survived Christmas, even had fledglings the following spring, and lived happily ever after

I completely understand. I have wanted to get a goat or a sheep, but haven’t because I know that if I do, it will never ever end up on the table. Oh well.