How do Jews disagree with Jesus as the messiah?

[studychristian]

The Judaism today is nothing like Judaism of the past, how they think a Messiah could come now with the state of there faith is beyond me…Jesus was the Messiah, whether they wanted to accept it or not, he fulfilled the the Messiah prophecies

 

[YKohen]

Scriptures claim that the Pharisees witnessed many miraculous deeds and still wanted to kill Jesus and cling to their scholarly traditions. Do you believe that only God can give life to the dead?

Of course (unless you include medically resuscitating a patient).

 

[YKohen]

Why does the Midrash say there are 70 ‘faces’ to the Torah. Is it because the spirit of Moses was given to seventy of the elders of Israel?

thank you and shalom

micah

Seventy in this case just means many. I never considered why specifically that number.

Interesting.

Thanks for the idea. Maybe I’ll look into it in all of the spare time that I don’t have.

 

[YKohen]

The Judaism today is nothing like Judaism of the past, how they think a Messiah could come now with the state of there faith is beyond me…Jesus was the Messiah, whether they wanted to accept it or not, he fulfilled the the Messiah prophecies

That’s the point.

1. He didn’t.
2. He isn’t even of the Davidic line.
3. See Ezekiel 36-37.

 

[joe370]

YKohen;9723683]That’s the point.

1. He didn’t.

To be fair, you don’t know that for sure - right?

1. He isn’t even of the Davidic line.

Makes sense: recall the curse of Jeconiah regarding the Throne of David…

1. See Ezekiel 36-37:

I read all of Ezekiel 36-37.

“…My servant David will be king over them, and they will all have one shepherd. They will follow my laws and be careful to keep my decrees. 25 They will live in the land I gave to my servant Jacob, the land where your ancestors lived. They and their children and their children’s children **will live there forever, and David my servant will be their prince forever.****26 I will make a covenant of peace with them; it will be an everlasting covenant. I will establish them and increase their numbers, and I will put my sanctuary among them forever. 27 My dwelling place will be with them; I will be their God, and they will be my people.**28 **Then the nations will know that I the Lord make Israel holy, when my sanctuary is among them forever.’”**By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going. By faith he made his home in the promised land like a stranger in a foreign country; he lived in tents, as did Isaac and Jacob, who were heirs with him of the same promise. For he was looking forward to the city with foundations, whose architect and builder is God. …And so from this one man, and he as good as dead, came descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as countless as the sand on the seashore. All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance, admitting that they were foreigners and strangers on earth. People who say such things show that they are looking for a country of their own. 15 If they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 Instead, they were longing for a better country—**a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them”:

The Heavenly Jerusalem where sin will cease to exist and God will be seen face to face - maybe?
**

 

[joe370]

I read it as it is. The servant here is the same servant mentioned earlier and later in Isaiah; The nation of Israel. As was stated explicitly in the language.

As I pointed out in my preceding posts regarding Isiah 44 through 53, I see the servant clearly being Israel as well as a specific person (Messiah). There are times when God speaks to His servant Israel (“who is blind but my servant…You are my servant He said to me, Israel…”) and then to His suffering servant: “It is to little, he says, for you to be my servant, to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and restore the survivors of Israel, I will make you a light of the nations, that my salvation may reach to the ends of the earth.” Israel of course is always considered the “son” and “servant” of God just as Jesus, the Messiah, is considered the “Son” and “suffering Servant” of God; one does not exclude the other:

Excerpt:

“Surely he took up our pain
and bore our suffering,
yet we considered him punished by God,
stricken by him, and afflicted.
But he was pierced for our transgressions,**
he was crushed for our iniquities;**
the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
and by his wounds we are healed.
We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to our own way;
and the Lord has laid on him**
the iniquity of us all.”**

Here we see a man bearing the sins of both Jews and Gentiles…

 

[acacia12]

YKohen,
I have recently purchased “Commentary on the Torah” by Richard Elliott Friedman. Have you heard of this writer and the book? If so, what do you think of it? I’ve only read a little so far and it’s blowing my mind apart! All the mistranslations that I were unaware of.
Your thoughts please. If any…
Thank you

 

[meltzerboy]

Since it has been a couple of days, let me start by quoting a few relevant verses again:

(44:1) “1 Yet now hear, O Jacob My servant, and Israel, whom I have chosen”
(44:2) “Fear not, O Jacob My servant, and thou, Jeshurun, whom I have chosen”
(49:3) “'Thou art My servant, Israel, in whom I will be glorified.”
(52:13) “Behold My servant shall prosper,”

And there are more like that. First, Israel is THE servant- the same servant mentioned throughout Isaiah. There is no other. it isn’t going to all of a sudden change to a different servant.

The only question to be asked at this point is how we bear the sin- not who else could.

For that, there could be many different answers- but the starting point MUST be that it is talking about the nation of Israel; and no other.

One thought that I had is in line with what Maimonides wrote in the Mishneh Torah, Laws of Repentence; something that is widely learned as we approach Rosh Hashannah and Yom Kippur.

Man is judged by G-d, but so are societies. So are nations, and so is the world. We don’t live in a vacuum. There is a very strong belief in Judaism that man is responsible for his fellow.

What is the role of the nation of Israel in the world? To be a “light unto the nations”; to show the world the way to ethical monotheism. If we aren’t doing our job correctly (and when have we, as a nation, achieved that level?), then we bear responsibility that the world isn’t as it should be. That might be a little strong, but is we are doing our best, then perhaps G-d will show us mercy. But if we aren’t, then perhaps He won’t.

As to Jewish scholars in general, I haven’t checked. I’m sure that there are different approaches. You can see Rashi’s approach here:

chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/15984/showrashi/true

The Midrash tells us that there are 70 “faces” to the Torah. There are many valid ways of understanding- some more literal and some more profound- but all valid according to the legitimate methods of Torah study handed to us.

The starting point is that they must be within the correct framework. I think that if you can’t read the verses in the original language in which they were written, there’s no way you can catch the linguistic nuances. Similarly, there must be contextual consistency. If there’s a word or phrase that is repeated numerous times, to start saying that it means something different in 1 place than it did in many other places simply doesn’t work.

That’s what I also pointed out above about “alma”; what the Christians claim is “virgin” in one place, but even they themselves translate as “young woman” in other places.

YKohen, when you get the chance, could you answer my question in post #328, which involves the meaning of verse 7?

 

[joe370]

Jews interpret verse 6 as meaning that G-d will make Israel a light for the Gentiles and the mission that Jews have is to spread the word of G-d by their own moral example. However, let’s assume instead that you are right and verse 6 refers to the Messiah, and now look at verse 7. If the word nation refers to Israel, then Isaiah appears to be saying that the Messiah will be rejected by Israel (his own people), but he will be glorified by the Gentiles, that is, kings and princes of other nations. I believe that is the Christian interpretation. Is that your reading as well?

Who is the “him” in this passage to which God is referring, regarding the nation, if not the Davidic King and Messiah?

“This is what the Lord says—
the Redeemer and Holy One of Israel—
to him who was despised and abhorred by the nation…”

 

[meltzerboy]

Who is the “him” in this passage to which God is referring, regarding the nation, if not the Davidic King and Messiah?

“This is what the Lord says—
the Redeemer and Holy One of Israel—
to him who was despised and abhorred by the nation…”

Thank you, joe. Yes, this is the passage I’d like YKohen to address.

Sorry for badgering you, (Rabbi)YKohen!

 

[joe370]

Thank you, joe. Yes, this is the passage I’d like YKohen to address.

Sorry for badgering you, (Rabbi)YKohen!

You are not badgering my friend… Never!!! I like these kind of debates where everyone involved get’s along so well.

 

[InJesusItrust]

[BIBLEDRB]Jeremiah 31:31-34[/BIBLEDRB]

Does not sound to me like the Mosiac covenant refers to the everlasting covenant in the OT.

Jesus first came for the Jews, they did not want it, so he gave it to the Gentiles until the Jews realize what happened.

 

[joe370]

Thank you, joe. Yes, this is the passage I’d like YKohen to address.

Sorry for badgering you, (Rabbi)YKohen!

Oops, I just realized you were referring to YKohen. He is really cool and won’t feel like you are badgering him.

 

[meltzerboy]

[BIBLEDRB]Jeremiah 31:31-34[/BIBLEDRB]

Does not sound to me like the Mosiac covenant refers to the everlasting covenant in the OT.

Jesus first came for the Jews, they did not want it, so he gave it to the Gentiles until the Jews realize what happened.

Judaism does not interpret it this way. This is because there are so many references in the Hebrew Bible to the everlasting nature of the Mosaic Covenant: Genesis, Psalms, Leviticus, Chronicles. In context, the point Jeremiah is making is that the Mosaic Covenant will be reinvigorated by means of the Jews’ atonement for their sins. It has also been interpreted as a renewed (not new) covenant in the final days when the Messiah comes. Notice the verse states “the covenant which THEY made void,” not the covenant which G-d made void. This means the Jews, by not atoning for their sins, did not fulfill the Mosaic Law of G-d; but by means of atonement, they will be able to renew their bond with G-d.

 

[joe370]

Judaism does not interpret it this way. This is because there are so many references in the Hebrew Bible to the everlasting nature of the Mosaic Covenant: Genesis, Psalms, Leviticus, Chronicles. In context, the point Jeremiah is making is that the Mosaic Covenant will be reinvigorated by means of the Jews’ atonement for their sins. It has also been interpreted as a renewed (not new) covenant in the final days when the Messiah comes. Notice the verse states “the covenant which THEY made void,” not the covenant which G-d made void. This means the Jews, by not atoning for their sins, did not fulfill the Mosaic Law of G-d; but by means of atonement, they will be able to renew their bond with G-d.

Right, and that is why Jesus said: “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfil them.” Of course I understand that you believe this will happen in the future by someone other than Jesus the Christ.

 

[YeshuaOrHaOlam]

Shalom again all;

I think it’s fair to say that, much, if not all of the debate over the scriptures, and how they fulfill or do not fulfill, themselves in Yeshua comes down to, you guessed it, interpretation.

Many Jewish Rabbis, devout and extremely knowledgeable concerning the Torah, Writings, and Prophets, have come to faith in Yeshua; some who previously defended against His messiah-ship, much like Saul.

So it isn’t enough to say that a person of Orthodox Jewish faith could never see Yeshua as the Mashiach; this declaration, though often voiced, is simply not true.

To me there is just too much that “fits” with Yeshua as Mashiach; it goes too deep for me to simply look the other way and not follow Him as G-d’s Chosen, His Anointed.

Shalom Aleichem

 

[YeshuaOrHaOlam]

Here are just a few of those such Rabbis;

Rabbi Ignác (Isaac) Lichtenstein (Chief Rabbi, Northern District of Hungary)

Rav Lichtenstein, served for 40 years as the Chief Rabbi of the Northern district of Hungary. He was a respected authority who late in life came to the realization that Yeshua is the Messiah and suffered greatly for his conviction.

He wrote several booklets arguing that faith in Yeshua is compatible with Judaism. Eventually community pressure forced him out of his position as district rabbi, but he never accepted Christian baptism, nor did he ever join a church.

Rabbi Daniel Zion (Chief Rabbi of Bulgaria)

Rabbi Daniel Zion, was the Chief Rabbi of Bulgaria during the Holocaust, and saved his entire community and brought them to Israel. When he passed away in 1979 at the ripe old age of 96 years old, the Bulgarian Jewish community in Israel gave him a full burial with military and state honors. His casket stood in the center of Jaffa with a military guard, and at noon was carried by men all the way to the Holon cemetery on foot. He was buried as the Chief Rabbi of Bulgarian Jews who saved them from the Nazi Holocaust. Rabbi Daniel Zion also believed that Yeshua was the Messiah and suffered greatly for his conviction.

**Rabbi Israel Zolli (Chief Rabbi of Rome)
**
Rabbi Israel Zolli (1881-1956) was the former Chief Rabbi of Rome who helped save about 4,000 Roman Jews as the Nazis entered Rome in 1943. Posing as a structural engineer, he entered the Vatican and asked Pope Pius XII to protect Rome’s Jews. The pope acquiesced and agreed to make churches, monasteries, convents, and the Vatican itself sanctuaries for them. Prior to his coming to Rome, Zolli served for 35 years as the Chief Rabbi of Trieste.

Following the war, Rav Zolli made a public confession of faith in 1945 and was forced out of his position. When asked if he therefore believed that the Messiah had come, he said:

“Yes, positively. I have believed it many years. And now I am so firmly convinced of the truth of it that I can face the whole world and defend my faith with the certainty and solidity of the mountains.”

Jewish leaders called him a heretic, excommunicated him, proclaimed a fast for several days in atonement for his “treason,” and mourned him as one dead.

Rabbi Chil Slostowski

A descendant of an illustrious line of great rabbis, Rav Slostowski received s’micha at the age of 17 and become a great gadol serving congregations in Poland, including teaching in the great rabbinical seminary in Lodz. There he became an authority on matters of kashrut. Within a few years he received an invitation from the illustrious former Israeli Chief Rabbi, Rav Abraham Isaac Kook, to go to Israel where he was appointed as Secretary to the Chief Rabbinate of Jerusalem.

After Rav Kook’s death in 1935, he moved to Tel Aviv and taught Talmud in an illustrious yeshiva. Like Rav Lichtenstein, Slostowski had a miraculous encounter while reading the New Testament in Hebrew that convinced him that Yeshua really was the Jewish Messiah. Although he tried to keep his new-found conviction quiet, within two months he could do so no longer, and openly confessed his belief that Yeshua was the Messiah and resigned from his position in Tel Aviv. Soon afterward he was pelted with rocks and hospitalized. But he was undeterred in his faith. He continued to publicly proclaim that Yeshua is the Messiah despite constant persecution.

Rabbi Yechiel Tzvi Lichtenstein

Yechiel Tzvi Lichtenstein (1831-1912) was a late nineteenth century Jewish believer from a Chasidic background. While in Yeshiva, he became a disciple of Yeshua of Nazareth. He served at the Institutum Judaicum Delitzschianum in Germany as a professor of rabbinics and wrote several books and commentaries in Hebrew, including refutations of anti-missionary works. His most popular work was Toldot Yeshua, a response to the famous anti-Yeshua work, Toldot Yeshu. He also worked on revisions to Franz Delitzsch’s Hebrew Gospels, and penned an entire commentary in Hebrew to the New Testament.

 

[YeshuaOrHaOlam]

Some pictures of the Rabbis;

( Edit )

I was trying to post pictures, but I guess Trial Members can’t share photos on this forum.

Shalom

 

[YeshuaOrHaOlam]

Some more Rabbis;

Rabbi Daniel Landsmann

Rabbi Daniel Landsmann (1836-1896) was a Jerusalem tailor and Talmudic scholar who came to faith in Yeshua in 1863. He was almost killed by his own people, angered that someone well educated in Jewish tradition should believe that Yeshua is the Messiah.

His perspective on Yeshua began to change when he found upon the street a page in Hebrew torn from a book. He loved what he read, and when he later discovered that it was from the Sermon on the Mount, he began to think differently about Yeshua. When he began to reveal that he believed Yeshua is the Messiah, his wife left him, a fanatical group attempted to wrestle him to the ground and nail spikes into his hands, and another tried to bury him alive.

He finally moved to New York City and, with a wealth of Talmudic knowledge and a humble spirit, moved many other Jews to consider the Messiahship of Yeshua.

**Rabbi Nathaniel Friedman
**
Rabbi Nathaniel Friedmann was sent from Russia to win Landsmann (above) back to Judaism in 1889. However his discussions with Landsmann resulted in Friedmann coming to believe in Yeshua’s Messiahship as well. He later was ordained as a Lutheran Pastor and became Landsmann’s successor, and served in NYC until 1941.

**Rav Ephraim Ben Joseph Eliakim (Chacham Ephraim)
**
Chacham (a respected title used by Sefardic Jews for great rabbis) Ephraim’s father was a Rabbi in Tiberias, a leading man in the Arabic-speaking Jewish community. Chacham Ephraim himself became esteemed and honored by Jews and Arabs alike and received a leading place in the community, becoming one of the dayanim, overseers of justice, who are specially entrusted with the rights and interests of the individuals of the community. Coincident with these advances he married the daughter of the Chief Rabbi.

Rav Ephraim eventually became friends with Rev. Dr. William Ewing, of the Church of Scotland in Tiberias, who spoke fluent Hebrew. The two men were of almost equal age and soon developed friendly talks about the Talmud and the Bible, but every conversation would eventually lead to claims of Yeshua as the Messiah.

The older Jewish interpretations of the fifty-third chapter of Isaiah were known as referring to the King Messiah, and it was not long before Chacham Ephraim recognized the picture of the Suffering Servant “by whose stripes we are healed.” The sufferings of his own people throughout the ages and their desperate outlook touched him deeply.

Guided by his friend he considered: “The first temple was destroyed and the nation scattered on account of three great sins committed by Israel, but seventy years later the temple was rebuilt. Then came the second destruction, and for over 1,800 years Israel has been without the Holy Temple. What was the cause of this second destruction and of the greater scattering? Idolatry was not the reason. There was no lack of zeal for either the Torah or for the sacrifices. Why has God forsaken us so long?”

Rav Ephraim wept and prayed and struggled with the problems, unwilling to give in. He even asked questions about these things of his fellow rabbis, but they could only give the time-worn, formal answers.

Still he struggled, con*vinced that some terrible sin had been the cause of the wrath of HaShem against his people. Then there dawned upon him the secret of it all— “sinat chinam – hatred without a cause” (Yoma 9b), and a still, small voice expostulated within him, “Cease to hate Me. Love Me and I will give you peace.”

The struggle was over. Chacham Ephraim found a peace that was unbroken until his dying day. What followed was a time of fierce persecution, where he lost everything, including his wife and family. Chacham Ephraim wandered to different cities and eventually settled in Jerusalem where he worked as a manual laborer, and in the evenings would meant with prominent individuals who would come secretly to talk with him. He also led studies in the Bible for other Jewish and Arab believers. He died in August of 1930 and was buried in Jerusalem.

Rabbi Judah Monis

Rabbi Judah Monis (1683-1764) played a significant role in American history. He was the first Jewish person in America to receive a college degree (MA from Harvard in 1720), the first college instructor of Hebrew in America, and the first person in North America to publish a Hebrew textbook (a Hebrew grammar, in 1735).

Rabbi Monis was born February 4, 1683, and was educated at Jewish academies in Livorno, Italy and Amsterdam. Following his ordination he served a congregation in Jamaica and then came to New York around 1715, where he opened a small store and also taught Hebrew. He additionally led discussions in theology, Kabbalah, and other topics. In 1720 he moved to Cambridge, MA, a city with a very small Jewish community.

A Grammar of the Hebrew Tongue published in 1735. (Library of Congress)

In 1720 he received an MA from Harvard, and for graduation submitted a handwritten transcript of a Hebrew grammar, which he continued to use in his classes until it was finally published in 1735.

After a number of years of study and contemplation, in 1722 Rabbi Judah Monis made a public confession of his faith in Yeshua. He continued to teach Hebrew at Harvard until his retirement in 1760. He died in 1764 and is buried in the First Parish Church Burial Ground on Howard Street in Northborough, MA.

 

[YeshuaOrHaOlam]

And finally,

Rabbi Dr. Max Wertheimer

Rabbi Max Wertheimer (1863-1941) was born in the province of Baden, Germany, to an Orthodox Jewish family. He received a strictly Jewish education, and beginning at the age of five was required to study the Torah in Hebrew with Rashi’s commentary as well as parts of the Talmud. He eventually immigrated to the United States to Buffalo, New York, where he met the rabbi of the local synagogue who was instrumental in his attending Hebrew Union College (HUC) in the fall of 1882.

Wertheimer became an outstanding student, finishing the eight year program in only seven years. He also won the favor of the president who took the young man under his wing. Wertheimer graduated with his doctorate from Cincinnati University in 1887 and from the rabbinical seminary in 1889. Following graduation he became the rabbi of Bnai Yeshurun Temple in Dayton, Ohio – the first American-trained rabbi of the congregation, where he served for 10 years.

Dr. Wertheimer’s reputation as a lecturer, teacher, and preacher led him to be frequently called upon to speak in literary societies and in schools. As a distinguished rabbi he also addressed Christian gatherings of various denominations, including some Roman Catholic institutions. In short, he was loved and esteemed not only by Jews, but also by Christians.

Despite his success, however, Rabbi Wertheimer was still searching for something he felt was missing. He often locked himself in his library studying and praying to HaShem for light. As he searched the Scriptures his thoughts were repeatedly directed to Isaiah 53. Again and again his attention focused on the central figure of the chapter—“the righteous servant.”

On March 30, 1904, Dr. Wertheimer publicly confessed his faith in Yeshua and for the remainder of his life traveled around the country as a speaker and teacher.

Rabbi Charles Freshman

Rabbi Charles Freshman (1819-1875) was born in Hungary in a traditional Jewish home and received a thoroughly Jewish education. As a young boy he became well known as a prodigy in Talmud and halachah, and later received semicha (ordination) as a rabbi. He eventually moved to the big city of Prague where he was married and served several small congregations until he moved to Canada, where he served a congregation in Quebec City. Over time Rabbi Freshman became convinced that Yeshua was the Messiah, along with his entire family – his wife and seven children.

Rabbi Rudolf Hermann Gurland

“Chaim” Gurland (1836-1905) was the son of a respected Rabbi in Vilnia, Lithuania. As a young child he loved his studies and especially adored the stories of great biblical figures and rabbis. His favorite narratives were those of Elijah. In fact, he loved them so much that one night he ran away from home because he “wanted to go up into heaven like Elijah”! It took days before the half-starved boy was found.

Chaim was destined to become a great rabbi like his father, and following his ordination he became the rabbi of Wilkomir. One day, a Jewish peddler brought him a Hebrew New Testament in which for the first time he read the Sermon on the Mount, the epistles of Paul, and other passages. His reading led to fresh doubts and a great sadness came over him.

He eventually came into contact with a local pastor and the two began to study Hebrew together. One day in the course of their studies they came to the fifty-third chapter of Isaiah. From that moment on the rabbi could not help thinking about that remarkable chapter, and felt it was cowardly to be afraid of what God had revealed in it.

The following week Rabbi Gurland expressed his willingness to read Isaiah 53 with Pastor Faltin. Rabbi Gurland admitted that the chapter was a perfect picture of Yeshua. After further study, when Rabbi Gurland was just 33 years old, he and his wife publicly announced their newfound belief that Yeshua was indeed the Messiah.

At once the news spread throughout the town, and ignited an incredible stir within the Jewish community. Rabbi Gurland left the town and moved to Berlin where he received further theological education. He then served as a pastor of several churches and also continued to work among his own Jewish people.

Many years later just before he died at the age of 74 years old, Gurland chose a text to correspond with his passing – the text was Psalm 122:1-3 “I was glad when they said to me: Let us go up to the house of the L-rd! Our feet already stand at your gates, Jerusalem. Jerusalem is built to be a city where the people shall gather.”

Shalom Aleichem