How do Jews disagree with Jesus as the messiah?

[mercytruth]

I’m going to try and combine a number of posts into one for the sake of brevity (although it won’t be that brief). You probably won’t like it, but I would be happy to hear your response.

The entire Septuagint was written over the course of hundreds of years- obviously by many different people. It even includes books that are neither part of the Jewish Bible not the Christian Bible. The two earliest known manuscripts contain only fragments, and nothing more. Relatively complete manuscripts of the Septuagint date from the 4th and 5th centuries of the common era, and the oldest complete copy that is extant dates from 600 years later- from the first half of the 10th century. It is also a fact that the texts of different copies differ, and none of these “late” extant copies are from Jewish scribes, who were always absolutely meticulous- and literate; to the point of knowing the entire text by heart; and their work is always checked by someone else even more experienced.

As I have mentioned, for Jews, each single letter of the Torah is important- to the point that an omission of a single letter invalidates an entire Torah scroll- and there are 304,805 letters in the Torah. Unlike the texts that you use, there is absolute linguistic consistency throughout, and unlike your copies (or copies of copies) it is in the original language as well.

I wanted to find a short article for you about your own texts- that encapsulates many of the ideas that we are discussing. This one seemed to fit the bill, quoting extensively from a New Testament scholar and professor:

leveltruth.com/articles/pamphlets/A4/The%20New%20Testament.pdf

A serious question for you: At the Council of Trent, The Vulgate was affirmed to be the authoritative version of the Christian Bible. If the Pope is infallible, as you believe, and clearly the Vulgate isn’t, how does that work out? Isn’t there something wrong with this picture?

As to the Dead Sea Scrolls, they were written by an extreme ascetic sect, the Essenes, that removed themselves both physically as well as spiritually from the rest of the Jews- and everybody else. If you haven’t visited Qumran, I highly suggest that you do. Then you’ll definitely get a better picture of who they are. I think of David Koresh or one of that type of sect when I think of them. The Dead Sea scrolls, like the Septuagint, contain many books (or manuscripts). Many of them aren’t in either of our Bibles, but they clearly considered them to be holy. So just I wouldn’t rely on the Branch Davidians or others like them to be the transmitters of truth and accuracy, I wouldn’t rely on the Essenes either.

As to Psalm 145 and the seemingly-missing verse, it isn’t that it is just “missing from the Aleppo Codex” or the Masoretic text. In fact, there is a discussion about it in the Gemara (Talmud), and a statement by Rabbi Johanan Ha-Nappah (3rd century CE) about that!

It couldn’t have possibly have been a Jewish copyist’s error because there were so many and they were so meticulous, and it couldn’t possibly have been purposely left out, lest people interpret it incorrectly referring to Jesus, because as we see, there are a whole host of verses that you think apply to him. Others would have been left out as well.

But they weren’t- because each word- each letter, is holy to us.

And the fact is that even the Dead Sea Scrolls version of the verse is different than your verse.

Even more than that: No such verse is found in other important ancient translations from the Hebrew - the Aramaic Targum, the Greek versions of Aquila, Symmachus, and Theodotion - nor is such a verse quoted anywhere in the Talmud.

And by the way, Psalms 25 and 34: They also follow the alphabet- but not 100%.

After this, I hope I don’t get tossed and we can still remain friends.

The Septuagint was quoted by the writers of the NT most of the time in the 1st century. The early church fathers quoted the Septuagint most of the time in the first three centuries. To say that the Septuagint is from the 4th-5th century AD is absolutely incorrect.

The Orthodox Church has been using the Septuagint since the 1st Century. I have respect for my Orthodox brothers, regardless of the fact that I am Roman Catholic.

The Septuagint was translated into Greek by Jewish scribes in the 2nd-3rd Century BC. Josephus and Philo of the first century acknowleged the authenticity of the Septuagint.

Therefore, it is disingenuous by Jewish scholars to maintain that their Masoretic text is superior to the Septuagint. It is disingenuous to maintain that we of the Christian faith have no validity in proclaiming the virgin birth of Messiah as taken from the Septuagint version of Isaih 7:14.

The Hebrew Dead Sea Scrolls are an older version than the Masoretic text, and the Septuagint has more similarity to the older Hebrew texts, than the Masoretic. After all, the older Hebrew text is what was used by the Jewish scribes to translate the Tanakh into the Greek Septuagint.

The Ethiopian Jews use the Septuagint version of the Tanakh to this day, and it includes the extra canonical books that are found in the Septuagint, but are not found in the more recent Masoretic text. Are you going to disenfranchise the legitimacy of your Ethiopian Jewish brethren because they have been using the Septuagint for a longer period of time than the Masoretic texts have been in existence?

I think all of us need to eat a little humble pie, and acknowlege our biases, and acknowlege that we can all learn something from each other.

shalom

micah

 

[mercytruth]

Good approach!

I still think it is a privilege to discuss scriptural questions and issues with you. So if you are not put off by my question, would you please give it some consideration?

In Orthodox Judaism, is Elijah the prophet going to prepare the way of the Messiah?
If so, in what manner?

Thank you and shalom

micah

 

[Kaninchen]

I think all of us need to eat a little humble pie, and acknowlege our biases, and acknowlege that we can all learn something from each other.

To borrow from the Christian apologist CS Lewis, the discovery of the mare’s nest whilst in pursuit of the red herring isn’t confined to Christians.

 

[YKohen]

I knew that this thread would end up like this. Even for the most polite, civil people- and I never claimed to be one anyway D), it will neccessarily touch on nerves. The initial question has been THE sticky point between Jews and Christians for 2000 years now, because it cuts to the heart of our disagreement. Therefore, I don’t think that it can remain in a discussion among people of faith(s) on some sort of dry, academic level.

On the positive side, I have learned so much from all of you and your challenging questions. I have never had this discussion before, so everything was new to me, and because Judaism concentrates on this world and not the next (tangible acts like prayer and charity, dietary laws, the Sabbath and festivals, etc…), this has always been what I spent the bulk of my time studying.

After weighing the positives and the negatives, I have concluded that the negatives of continuing with this thread outweigh the positives. I didn’t join this forum to proselytize. Again, Jews don’t do that. I certainly didn’t come here to try and shake the foundations of anyone’s faith.

If someone wants to start a more neutral thread about Judaism (without getting into the contentious issue of the messiah), then maybe I’ll join in. I will still follow other threads- but not this one.

Just a quick point for micha about the Ethiopian Jews. There are a lot of things that they did there that the Jewish world didn’t do- ever, and vice-versa. Now that they’re in Israel, they are integrating and rejoining us after having been so cut off for so long. That includes using the normative Jewish Bible, prayer books, and so on. All of the other points would require me to remain in the fray, and I’m not going to to that.

I bid you all adieu on this thread. I hereby resign.

See you all on other threads.

 

[mercytruth]

I knew that this thread would end up like this. Even for the most polite, civil people- and I never claimed to be one anyway D), it will neccessarily touch on nerves. The initial question has been THE sticky point between Jews and Christians for 2000 years now, because it cuts to the heart of our disagreement. Therefore, I don’t think that it can remain in a discussion among people of faith(s) on some sort of dry, academic level.

On the positive side, I have learned so much from all of you and your challenging questions. I have never had this discussion before, so everything was new to me, and because Judaism concentrates on this world and not the next (tangible acts like prayer and charity, dietary laws, the Sabbath and festivals, etc…), this has always been what I spent the bulk of my time studying.

After weighing the positives and the negatives, I have concluded that the negatives of continuing with this thread outweigh the positives. I didn’t join this forum to proselytize. Again, Jews don’t do that. I certainly didn’t come here to try and shake the foundations of anyone’s faith.

If someone wants to start a more neutral thread about Judaism (without getting into the contentious issue of the messiah), then maybe I’ll join in. I will still follow other threads- but not this one.

Just a quick point for micha about the Ethiopian Jews. There are a lot of things that they did there that the Jewish world didn’t do- ever, and vice-versa. Now that they’re in Israel, they are integrating and rejoining us after having been so cut off for so long. That includes using the normative Jewish Bible, prayer books, and so on. All of the other points would require me to remain in the fray, and I’m not going to to that.

I bid you all adieu on this thread. I hereby resign.

See you all on other threads.

I sincerely thank you for all your patience, and for all of the Jewish understanding that you have shared with us.

I did want to say something about Elijah who is spoken of by the prophet Malachi. "He shall turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the hearts of the children to the fathers, lest the earth be…"

speaking only for myself, the ‘fathers’ are the Jewish sages of G-d’s wisdom, and the children are the spiritual Christian/Muslim descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, who for whatever reason have been estranged from our spiritual fathers.

my earnest desire is that we will be reconciled some day.

shalom to you always

micah

 

[504Katrin]

The answer lies in the reasons behind the rejection of the Law, of Torah, by Christianity. Laws of course had existed even prior to the Jews. What was unique to the Jews was to evolve laws on a religious basis that did not deal only with man’s relationship to God but with man’s relationship to other men and the placing of those laws on a Divine religious basis.

The Law had to be passed down from father to son, the people involved had to understand the nuances between an ox that had behaved badly in the past as opposed to an unexpected act, or differentiate whether the ox was being kept without consideration or with consideration. In other words, it required a society with universal male literacy that was highly intelligent. This was fine as long as Torah was confined to the Jews. However Christianity wished for universality, to reach everyman, to reach the pagan masses who were at this time invariably illiterate.

The solution demanded that Christianity reject Torah and the intellectual discussions of Judaism for a dogmatic religion with a set series of beliefs that could be learned by rote and by their acceptance make the person a Christian adherent. It required the building of a hierarchy that could develop, decide on and spread those dogmatic beliefs.

So I finally got to ask a (Catholic) Priest and he said that we’re supposed to keep all the laws given that they aren’t man-made…

Which raises even MORE questions! Christians believe anyways that the Christian scriptures were inspired by the Holy Spirit so that ones weren’t man made.

G’d said a lot of things in the Jewish scriptures so those ones aren’t man made either.

I think he might refer to explanations given in the Halacha (spelling?) for instance that we Christians don’t have to follow in his opionion maybe. But then again, aren’t these scriptures inspired by G’d also?

This is a huuuuuuuuuge issue right there.

I will see my confessor Saturday and I will have even more questions for him it seems

 

[mercytruth]

So I finally got to ask a (Catholic) Priest and he said that we’re supposed to keep all the laws given that they aren’t man-made…

Which raises even MORE questions! Christians believe anyways that the Christian scriptures were inspired by the Holy Spirit so that ones weren’t man made.

G’d said a lot of things in the Jewish scriptures so those ones aren’t man made either.

I think he might refer to explanations given in the Halacha (spelling?) for instance that we Christians don’t have to follow in his opionion maybe. But then again, aren’t these scriptures inspired by G’d also?

This is a huuuuuuuuuge issue right there.

I will see my confessor Saturday and I will have even more questions for him it seems

Eventhough our Jewish mentor is no longer with us, I would like to respond to the seeming dillemna that you are now facing.

I think we can agree that the literal sacrificial laws of the Torah are now null and void for those of us who hold to the belief that Jesus Christ has fulfilled these requirements by his own sacrificial suffering and death on the cross.

There are other laws of the Torah which relate to dietary, as well as ritual purity of the outward person. Jesus has said, that it is not so much what goes into the human body and passes through, but what proceeds from the heart that makes one holy. Here we have a conflict with our elder brothers of the faith.

Then there are the laws of right relationship between one another. I do not think we should ignore these laws by thinking they do not apply to us. If one was to read the early church fathers regarding the two ways of the Didache for instance, one would see the Jewish Christian Torah infuences.

There is a difference **in our approach **to these laws from that of our Jewish brethen. For us, we acknowlege that we are not capable of being righteous in our relationship with one another without the abiding presence of the Spirit of Messiah in our hearts. Yet, the moral standards of right living with one another are delineated in the Torah and the prophets.

Then there are the feast days, holy days, prayers, liturgy of our Jewish brethren. Within our Christian/Catholic tradition we have incorporated many of them into our own liturgy.
An understanding and appreciation for the Jewish roots of these traditions that are of the Torah, and even Jewish traditions are essential in understanding and appreciating our elder Jewish brethren.

Lastly, though I have defended the Septuagint for the basis of understanding our Catholic faith, I would never disallow the Hebrew scriptures. They are the original language of our faith, and they have meaning that can not be expressed in Greek. For this reason, we need to learn from the Jewish sages their understanding of the Tanakh to better grasp our own faith.

These are just my own thoughts after many years and they have no authority behind them. So yes, see your priest and see if you can sort out your conflicts regarding the keeping of the Torah with him.

God’s peace

micah

 

[Ion]

How do Jews disagree with Jesus as the messiah? Jews use many Old Testament passages of prophecy to show that Jesus was not the messiah promised to them. How are we to defend our faith against Jewish people who argue this, and how do we deal with these passages?

Here are some verses:
Isaiah 2:1-4, 32:15-18, 60:15-18;
Hosea 2:20-22;
Amos 9:13-15;
Micah 4:1-4;
Zechariah 8:23, 14:9;
Jeremiah 31:33-34
Ezekiel 37:26-28
Isaiah 43:5-6
Isaiah 11:2
and many more

The prophecies are given in such a way that nobody can take advantage of them by manipulating the circumstances to get personal advantages. Trying to imagine all the details about a prophecy is wrong because otherwise all the details would have been given first hand by the prophet. They add to prophecies personal details that blind them; their focus is on the details that were added. When they mention the prophecy, they mean something different, that wasn’t really told.
Big mistake of those who imagined only one coming…
Big mistake of those who imagined a “Pax Romana” with the capital in Jerusalem …
How do they reconcile the past 2000 years of Christianity with their tradition?

 

[Ion]

QUOTE=chosen people;9555259]The Messiah ben David is by definition that man who fulfills all six of the criterion in the Jewish scriptures. From a Jewish perspective what makes Christian claims that Jesus was the Messiah ben David so remarkable, is that he did not fulfill a single one of the six criterion.

The six authentic Jewish Messianic criteria are:

1. have the correct genealogy by being descended from King David and king Solomon
2. be anointed King of Israel
3. return the Jewish people to Israel
4. rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem
5. bring peace to the world and end all war
6. bring knowledge of God to the world

We see that each of the six Jewish messianic criteria is empirically verifiable and therefore faith is not required to determine the identity of the Jewish Messiah ben David. We can see if the Temple has been rebuilt, if all the Jews have returned to Israel, if the entire world believes in God and follows Torah, if the entire world is at peace.

, עֵינַיִם עִוְרוֹת
You say “We see that…” correctly would be:”Jews want to see that…”
No wonder they collapsed after following the leadership of a false messiah…

 

[mercytruth]

Good approach!

Yes, every letter of the Hebrew alphabet has a meaning. The letter ‘nun’ represents one who is humble, one who is faithful, one who fears the Lord. In Aramaic it represents the fish. Ultimately, it represents the Mashiach.

The letter nun verse is missing from the Masoretic text of Ps.145, but not from the Septuagint, nor from the Dead Sea Scrolls which do contain the nun verse of
Ps. 145: The Lord is faithful in all his words, and holy in all his works"

chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/137086/jewish/Nun-Mashiach.htm

hebrew4christians.com/Grammar/Unit_One/Aleph-Bet/Nun/nun.html

shalom

micah

 

[mercytruth]

I’ll accept that approach.

I do know that same Hebrew word is found in the Tanakh when speaking of the faithfulness of Moses (Numbers 12:7), a faithful priest (1 Sam. 2:35) and faithful David
(1 Sam. 22:14).

I find it interesting that this missing verse is quoted in one of the early church writings, and that Ps. 145 was read ,or chanted in one of our earliest liturgies…the liturgy of St. James, Bishop of Jerusalem

The question remains, from a historical perspective, is the Septuagint a more accurate representation of the Tanakh than the Masoretic text?

God’s peace

micah.

As far as Ps.145:13 (14) being quoted by the early church fathers we have this citation which seems to indicate that the verse refers to Jesus Christ:

*All we of the faithful, therefore, who are the disciples of Christ, believe His promises. For He that has promised it cannot lie; as says the blessed prophet David: “The Lord is faithful in all His words, and holy in all His works.” For He that framed for Himself a body out of a virgin, is also the Former of other men. And He that raised Himself from the dead, will also raise again all that are laid down. He who raises wheat out of the ground with many stalks from one grain, He who makes the tree that is cut down send forth fresh branches, He that made Aaron’s dry rod put forth buds, will raise us up in glory; He that raised Him up that had the palsy whole, and healed him that had the withered hand, He that supplied a defective part to him that was born blind from clay and spittle, will raise us up; He that satisfied five thousand men with five loaves and two fishes, and caused a remainder of twelve baskets, and out of water made wine, and sent a piece of money out of a fish’s mouth by me Peter to those that demanded tribute, will raise the dead. For we testify all these things concerning Him, and the prophets testify the other. We who have eaten and drunk with Him, and have been spectators of His wonderful works, and of His life, and of His conduct, and of His words, and of His sufferings, and of His death, and of His resurrection from the dead, and who associated with Him forty days after His resurrection, Acts 1:3 and who received a command from Him to preach the Gospel to all the world, and to make disciples of all nations, Matthew 28:19 and to baptize them into His death by the authority of the God of the universe, who is His Father, and by the testimony of the Spirit, who is His Comforter,— we teach you all these things which He appointed us by His constitutions, before “He was received up in our sight into heaven,” Acts 1:9 to Him that sent Him. And if you will believe, you shall be happy; but if you will not believe, we shall be found innocent, and clear from your incredulity. *

Apostolic Constitutions, Book V, Section 1.

newadvent.org/fathers/07155.htm

Since the letter ‘nun’ is the 14th letter of the Hebrew alphabet, perhaps this is why St.Matthew makes note that there are 14 generations from Abraham to David, and 14 generations from David to the Babylonian exile, and 14 generations from the Babylonian exile to the birth of the Messiah.

shalom

micah

 

[joe370]

To borrow from the Christian apologist CS Lewis, the discovery of the mare’s nest whilst in pursuit of the red herring isn’t confined to Christians.

Israel as a nation started out as a theocracy (nation governed by God through His prophets). Then in the days of Samuel, the people desired a king “like all the other nations” which of course upset Samuel, but the LORD instructed him to “Listen to all that the people are saying to you; it is not you they have rejected, but they have rejected Me as their king. As they have done from the day I brought them up out of Egypt until this day, forsaking me and serving other gods, so they are doing to you.”

Since the dynasty of Israel’s human kings sprung from a rejection of God, it doesn’t seem likely that Israel could exist in God’s perfect order until its kingship was once again vested in God Himself. Does it seem at all plausible to believe that divine perfection in the Messianic Age would therefore come under the kingship of God as opposed to an ordinary man who would rule like all the preceding kings, in the conventional way?

Also, doesn’t Isaiah tell us that the Messiah will rule by the Word of God and not by military and political power:

Isaiah said that the Branch from Jesse would “strike the earth with the rod of his mouth and with the breath of his lips … slay the wicked.”

 

[router123]

I have heard some say that the Greeks were smart people and there was enough time (400 years) to write the NT story and fill it in with all the prophesies from the OT. That would be some offshore merchant account powerful intellect though. I can’ t see it. The life, death and ressurrection of Jesus is too nuanced. Every’ T’ is crossed and ‘I’ dotted.

Jesus Christ our savior as their messiah. excellent post…

 

[trdchubi]

Reading the posts of our Jewish brothers and sister here, I have dwell on the fact that it would take more than logical reasoning in proving that Jesus (Yehoshua) is the Messiah. I have to leave it at that.

One question though, I really like to hear the thoughts of our Jewish friends with regards to the note written by Rabbi Yitzak Kaduri about the name of the Messiah before he died?

His secret note reads: Yarim Ha’Am Veyokhiakh Shedvaro Vetorato Omdim which when translated to engish says “He will lift the people and prove that his word and law are valid.” The initials (acronym) spell the Hebrew name of Yehoshua “יהושוע” as shown in this picture.



Can anyone shed light on this, especially when this revelation came from a prominent Ultra orthodox Jewish Rabbi, who devoted almost a century of his life in studying the Tanakh.

Here is the Hebrew website where the news came from.

 

[trdchubi]

Reading the posts of our Jewish brothers and sister here, I have dwell on the fact that it would take more than logical reasoning in proving that Jesus (Yehoshua) is the Messiah. I have to leave it at that.

I just have one concern that needs to be address though, I really like to hear the thoughts of our Jewish friends with regards to the note written by Rabbi Yitzak Kaduri about the name of the Messiah before he died?

His secret note reads: Yarim Ha’Am Veyokhiakh Shedvaro Vetorato Omdim which when translated to engish says “He will lift the people and prove that his word and law are valid.” The initials (acronym) spell the Hebrew name of Yehoshua “יהושוע” as shown in this picture.



Can anyone shed light on this, especially when this revelation came from a prominent Ultra orthodox Jewish Rabbi, who devoted almost a century of his life on studying the Tanakh.

from NFC

 

[KathleenGee]

The Masoretic text was the one followed by the Jews who did not accept Christ whereas the other was that followed by the apostles and St. Paul, along with their followers.

 

[YeshuaOrHaOlam]

]Reading the posts of our Jewish brothers and sister here, I have dwell on the fact that it would take more than logical reasoning in proving that Jesus (Yehoshua) is the Messiah. I have to leave it at that.

I just have one concern that needs to be address though, I really like to hear the thoughts of our Jewish friends with regards to the note written by Rabbi Yitzak Kaduri about the name of the Messiah before he died?

Shalom friend;

It’s an interesting piece of information to be sure.

Orthodox Jews, and many of his closest followers, reject the note outright.

Others aren’t as dismissive.

From what I have read about this story before, there isn’t anything that “refutes” the authenticity of the note, but rather arguments about whether the Rabbi was in his right frame of mind, etc, etc.

Most esteemed Rabbis who turn to faith in Yeshua are persecuted incredibly by their fellow neighbors of faith. Some have been beaten, abused, and even attempted to be murdered by ultra Orthodox groups.

Any who, that being said, I tend to believe it could be a genuine note; there is nothing that seems to be telling otherwise; other than prejudice.

Shalom Aleichem

 

[joe370]

Shalom friend;

Most esteemed Rabbis who turn to faith in Yeshua are persecuted incredibly by their fellow neighbors of faith. Some have been **beaten, abused, and even attempted to be murdered by ultra Orthodox groups.
**

Shalom Aleichem

I did not know that… Are you sure about the part in bold?

 

[YeshuaOrHaOlam]

I did not know that… Are you sure about the part in bold?

Shalom dear friend,

Sadly, yes.

Check my earlier posts in this thread on Rabbis who declared faith in Yeshua.

It’s hostile, no doubt about it. Sometimes we forget that when The Master spoke, “you will be hated by all because of my name,” he meant it quite literally for some talmidim.

Shalom Aleichem

 

[mercytruth]

As far as Ps.145:13 (14) being quoted by the early church fathers we have this citation which seems to indicate that the verse refers to Jesus Christ:

All we of the faithful, therefore, who are the disciples of Christ, believe His promises. For He that has promised it cannot lie; as says the blessed prophet David: “The Lord is faithful in all His words, and holy in all His works.” For He that framed for Himself a body out of a virgin, is also the Former of other men. And He that raised Himself from the dead, will also raise again all that are laid down. He who raises wheat out of the ground with many stalks from one grain, He who makes the tree that is cut down send forth fresh branches, He that made Aaron’s dry rod put forth buds, will raise us up in glory; He that raised Him up that had the palsy whole, and healed him that had the withered hand, He that supplied a defective part to him that was born blind from clay and spittle, will raise us up; He that satisfied five thousand men with five loaves and two fishes, and caused a remainder of twelve baskets, and out of water made wine, and sent a piece of money out of a fish’s mouth by me Peter to those that demanded tribute, will raise the dead. For we testify all these things concerning Him, and the prophets testify the other. We who have eaten and drunk with Him, and have been spectators of His wonderful works, and of His life, and of His conduct, and of His words, and of His sufferings, and of His death, and of His resurrection from the dead, and who associated with Him forty days after His resurrection, Acts 1:3 and who received a command from Him to preach the Gospel to all the world, and to make disciples of all nations, Matthew 28:19 and to baptize them into His death by the authority of the God of the universe, who is His Father, and by the testimony of the Spirit, who is His Comforter,— we teach you all these things which He appointed us by His constitutions, before “He was received up in our sight into heaven,” Acts 1:9 to Him that sent Him. And if you will believe, you shall be happy; but if you will not believe, we shall be found innocent, and clear from your incredulity.

Apostolic Constitutions, Book V, Section 1.

newadvent.org/fathers/07155.htm

Since the letter ‘nun’ is the 14th letter of the Hebrew alphabet, perhaps this is why St.Matthew makes note that there are 14 generations from Abraham to David, and 14 generations from David to the Babylonian exile, and 14 generations from the Babylonian exile to the birth of the Messiah.

shalom

micah

I want to now make it very clear after further study, that I do believe the Masoretic text should be considered at least equal to the Septuagint. Why?

Psalm 22:16 was found among the Dead Sea Scrolls. Preliminarily, it has been translated the same as the Septuagint version: “They pierced my hands and my feet”.

Whereas, the Masoretic text translates it as, 17 For dogs have encompassed me; a company of evil-doers have inclosed me; like a lion, they are at my hands and my feet

The Dead Sea Scrolls seems to indicate that the verse should read, “they dug my hands and my feet” (Much like the Duouy Rheims translation.)

One can read a discussion on this subject:
torahresource.com/EnglishArticles/Ps22.16.pdf

More importantly, this verse is not quoted by the Gospel writers, nor anywhere else in the NT. If the apostles thought that the translation, “they pierced my hands and my feet” was a viable understanding of Ps.22:16, I think they would have quoted it. Especially since, they quoted many other verses of this Psalm within the gospels.

Furthermore, the apostle John does quote a ‘piercing’ scripture, but it is not from Ps.22, it is from Zechariah 12:10: "They shall look upon him, whom they have pierced"
(John 19:37).

There is a very good listing of the NT quotations of the Tanakh compared with their corresponding Septuagint version and the Masoretic version (using the authorize version of the NT and OT.) From this listing, you will see that there is very little difference between the Septuagint and the Masoretic versions of the Tanakh verses that are quoted in the NT.

I want to personally thank Joel K. for making this chart:

kalvesmaki.com/LXX/NTChart.htm

Eventhough the acrostic ‘nun’ verse is missing in Ps.145 of the Masoretic text, (which is still a mystery to me), I thank the Jewish people for their accurate diligence in transcribing the Hebrew text over the many centuries.

By the way, Ps. 145 is not quoted in the NT either.

shalom,

micah