How do Jews Regard Jer 1:5

[InSearchofGrace]

From the Torah, Navi - Prophets, Jeremiah 1:5

5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee, and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee; …

Given that Israel has the cutting edge in reproductive technology with Tel Aviv currently regarded as the IVF capital of the world, I was wondering how Jewish people square the technology that Israel is advancing with the referenced Torah (the same as the Christian OT verse)? Do Jewish people generally believe that IVF is moral or amoral?

Thank you in advance for any fruitful discussion you bring in to the thread.
,

 

[Kaninchen]

From the Torah, Navi - Prophets, Jeremiah 1:5

5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee, and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee; …

Given that Israel has the cutting edge in reproductive technology with Tel Aviv currently regarded as the IVF capital of the world, I was wondering how Jewish people square the technology that Israel is advancing with the referenced Torah (the same as the Christian OT verse)? Do Jewish people generally believe that IVF is moral or amoral?

Thank you in advance for any fruitful discussion you bring in to the thread.
,

4 The word of the Lord came to me:

5 Before I created you in the womb, I selected you;
Before you were born, I consecrated you;
I appointed you a prophet concerning the nations.

So, God’s addressing the Prophet himself. Meanwhile, Jeremiah is not found in the Torah (the Law) but in ‘Nevi’im’ (Prophets).

I’m in a bit of a hurry but here’s something from ‘Jewish Virtual Library’ which is a useful source - as you can see it’s typically Jewish - ‘on the one hand but on the other hand, meanwhile on yet another hand’.

 

[Pfaffenhoffen]

From the Torah, Navi - Prophets, Jeremiah 1:5

5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee, and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee; …

Given that Israel has the cutting edge in reproductive technology with Tel Aviv currently regarded as the IVF capital of the world, I was wondering how Jewish people square the technology that Israel is advancing with the referenced Torah (the same as the Christian OT verse)? Do Jewish people generally believe that IVF is moral or amoral?

Thank you in advance for any fruitful discussion you bring in to the thread.
,

Sorry, IVF stands for …? Thanks
I must do a dictionary for they are so many shorwords (how do you say that in english?.. )
Thanks

 

[InSearchofGrace]

4 The word of the Lord came to me:

5 Before I created you in the womb, I selected you;
Before you were born, I consecrated you;
I appointed you a prophet concerning the nations.

So, God’s addressing the Prophet himself. Meanwhile, Jeremiah is not found in the Torah (the Law) but in ‘Nevi’im’ (Prophets).

I’m in a bit of a hurry but here’s something from ‘Jewish Virtual Library’ which is a useful source - as you can see it’s typically Jewish - ‘on the one hand but on the other hand, meanwhile on yet another hand’.

Thanks, K. I actually obtained the verse from the JVL site. I understand that God was addressing Jeremiah.

I am interested in your answer to the second part of my post. I probably should have framed the thread as: How do Jews regard the morality of IVF vis-à-vis Jer 1:5?
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[Kaninchen]

Thanks, K. I actually obtained the verse from the JVL site. I understand that God was addressing Jeremiah.

I am interested in your answer to the second part of my post. I probably should have framed the thread as: How do Jews regard the morality of IVF vis-à-vis Jer 1:5?
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You’ll find the an answer in the link. Generally speaking, it’s ok when it’s husband and wife.

 

[meltzerboy]

4 The word of the Lord came to me:

5 Before I created you in the womb, I selected you;
Before you were born, I consecrated you;
I appointed you a prophet concerning the nations.

So, God’s addressing the Prophet himself. Meanwhile, Jeremiah is not found in the Torah (the Law) but in ‘Nevi’im’ (Prophets).

I’m in a bit of a hurry but here’s something from ‘Jewish Virtual Library’ which is a useful source - as you can see it’s typically Jewish - ‘on the one hand but on the other hand, meanwhile on yet another hand’.

Thank you, Kaninchen, for this enlightening article, and I’ll let you interpret Grace’s question, since you can do a better job. One question of my own: I realize “Be fruitful and multiply” is an important commandment. However, I also know (or thought I knew) that the primary purpose of marriage according to Jewish Law is not procreation, but love and companionship between man and woman as one flesh. Not that this would negate the importance of procreation and hence morally halachic natural as well as artificial means of reproduction, but perhaps it would diminish somewhat the urgency of artificial means. I was just wondering now, after reading this article, whether the dominant Orthodox Jewish view is that procreation is of (almost) equal importance within marriage to that of love and companionship, despite the information I have read to the contrary.

 

[Kaninchen]

Thank you, Kaninchen, for this enlightening article, and I’ll let you interpret Grace’s question, since you can do a better job. One question of my own: I realize “Be fruitful and multiply” is an important commandment. However, I also know (or thought I knew) that the primary purpose of marriage according to Jewish Law is not procreation, but love and companionship between man and woman as one flesh. Not that this would negate the importance of procreation and hence morally halachic natural as well as artificial means of reproduction, but perhaps it would diminish somewhat the urgency of artificial means. I was just wondering now, after reading this article, whether the dominant Orthodox Jewish view is that procreation is of (almost) equal importance within marriage to that of love and companionship, despite the information I have read to the contrary.

‘Be fruitful and multiply’ is one of the positive commandments and women are exempt from most of the ‘do’s’ (as opposed to the ‘don’ts’) which is why the pill tends to be seen as ok but condoms not (Onan). Only the frumest of the frum seem to argue that ‘be fruitful and multiply’ means huge families.

 

[InSearchofGrace]

You’ll find the an answer in the link. Generally speaking, it’s ok when it’s husband and wife.

I read the link, thanks. So, I take it that Jewish law or teaching in even conservative Jewish sects do not have a requirement for marriages to be unitive and procreative in bringing forth children?

It was interesting to read the unresolved issue on who has more importance in determining Jewish status of the child, the genetic or the gestational mother. There is no problem if both genetic and gestational mothers are Jewish; but what if it’s a non-Jewish genetic mom (egg donor) but a Jewish gestational / birth mother, or if it’s a Jewish genetic mother but a non-Jewish birth mother? What a conundrum! So who or what is the final authority in Jewish law?

You stated that the pill tends to be okay but not condoms. Does this mean that Jewish law is open to interpretation by different denominations in the faith?

Lastly, your mention of only the frumest wanting huge families caught my interest. Come to think of it, I have never met or come across a huge Jewish family. Not here in California, anyway. The most children in families I know is two. I think Jewish people should have more kids. All of you in the world are just around 13 million.
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[Kaninchen]

I read the link, thanks. So, I take it that Jewish law or teaching in even conservative Jewish sects do not have a requirement for marriages to be unitive and procreative in bringing forth children?

There’s not always a Jewish Answer to a Catholic Question.

It was interesting to read the unresolved issue on who has more importance in determining Jewish status of the child, the genetic or the gestational mother. There is no problem if both genetic and gestational mothers are Jewish; but what if it’s a non-Jewish genetic mom (egg donor) but a Jewish gestational / birth mother, or if it’s a Jewish genetic mother but a non-Jewish birth mother? What a conundrum! So who or what is the final authority in Jewish law?

There is no ‘final authority’. There’s ‘the Law’ and there’s a mass of ‘legal interpretation’ (Tradition), there are Beth Din (Jewish Courts - far from unknown for them to disagree with one another) and there are individual Rabbis and Rebbes (bit like consulting a lawyer for a legal opinion in the secular field).

You stated that the pill tends to be okay but not condoms. Does this mean that Jewish law is open to interpretation by different denominations in the faith?

Not just between different traditions but within different traditions.

Lastly, your mention of only the frumest wanting huge families caught my interest. Come to think of it, I have never met or come across a huge Jewish family. Not here in California, anyway. The most children in families I know is two. I think Jewish people should have more kids. All of you in the world are just around 13 million.
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The positive commandment to ‘be fruitful and multiply’ applies, as I said, to men. It could be said that having two children means that the man has been fruitful and multiplied.

Since the diaspora, we’ve always been a tiny minority but we’ve survived, it’s not a numbers game.

 

[InSearchofGrace]

There’s not always a Jewish Answer to a Catholic Question.

There is no ‘final authority’. There’s ‘the Law’ and there’s a mass of ‘legal interpretation’ (Tradition), there are Beth Din (Jewish Courts - far from unknown for them to disagree with one another) and there are individual Rabbis and Rebbes (bit like consulting a lawyer for a legal opinion in the secular field).

Not just between different traditions but within different traditions.

The positive commandment to ‘be fruitful and multiply’ applies, as I said, to men. It could be said that having two children means that the man has been fruitful and multiplied.

Since the diaspora, we’ve always been a tiny minority but we’ve survived, it’s not a numbers game.

Your reply is much appreciated in my further understanding of the Jewish faith and tradition, at least on the topic I brought up.

The survival of the Chosen People is a testament to the resilience of man. From the biblical times to WWII and to the current situation in the Middle East. I realize it is not a numbers game with the Jews. In my thinking, a bigger population of your people is good for the planet, because I have not met a Jewish family or person I did not like. I take that back, I don’t think I would like Norman Finkelstein.

The first such family (Jewish) I met was when I was a little girl going to a Catholic convent school run by German nuns in an overseas country. One of my classmates was a beautiful hazel eyed blonde, one of two daughters of Jewish parents originally from Germany who fled as did many during that time in Europe. Her father was a master piano maker. When I recently visited the place of my youth, I ran into her and we had a blast. She teased me about my now American accent, and I her for her pronounced local accent. In settling in California, I met a number of Jewish people, some for whom I have grown to regard with affection, although we have never talked much about the differences in our faiths. Jewish outlook on IVF was something I have been meaning to ask one of them, but I don’t bump into them anymore.

As you may have gathered, Catholic view on IVF is different. At least, people of the Jewish faith, more or less, according to what you stated, utilize the technology to help with fertility problems between husbands and wives. I suppose the question is, since the technology is there which high Jewish minds bring to state of the art level, is it open for people to use even outside this configuration, e.g., to provide children to same sex couples, not in the spirit that God commanded to ‘be fruitful and multiply.’ I fear what the answer would be, and I don’t think I will like it. What is your view, K?
,

 

[Kaninchen]

As you may have gathered, Catholic view on IVF is different. At least, people of the Jewish faith, more or less, according to what you stated, utilize the technology to help with fertility problems between husbands and wives. I suppose the question is, since the technology is there which high Jewish minds bring to state of the art level, is it open for people to use even outside this configuration, e.g., to provide children to same sex couples, not in the spirit that God commanded to ‘be fruitful and multiply.’ I fear what the answer would be, and I don’t think I will like it. What is your view, K?
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I’m not entirely sure what you’re asking here.

Do I think it would ever be ‘halakhically’ (seen to be in accordance with ‘The Law’) accepted? My answer would be no.

Do I think it might become legal in Israel? Possibly, but Israel is a secular country and not run under religious law.

 

[Michael19682]

Thank you, Kaninchen, for this enlightening article, and I’ll let you interpret Grace’s question, since you can do a better job. One question of my own: I realize “Be fruitful and multiply” is an important commandment. However, I also know (or thought I knew) that the primary purpose of marriage according to Jewish Law is not procreation, but love and companionship between man and woman as one flesh. Not that this would negate the importance of procreation and hence morally halachic natural as well as artificial means of reproduction, but perhaps it would diminish somewhat the urgency of artificial means. I was just wondering now, after reading this article, whether the dominant Orthodox Jewish view is that procreation is of (almost) equal importance within marriage to that of love and companionship, despite the information I have read to the contrary.

I’m personally interested in knowing what Jewish marital vows are. It seems to me that if fertility is not a guarantee, a vow could not be based on it. The Jewish people allow divorce, Catholics do not. Yet Catholics emphasize procreation as the purpose of marriage. Infertility can become part of the shared cross of the married couple. Since divorce is not permitted, this would imply an apparent contradiction in cases where the reason for the union is not obtainable.

On what basis is a Jewish divorce permitted? The Talmud says he can divorce her for any reason, including spoiling his dinner? My question on that part is very serious. “Any reason” might include a sinful reason, which can never be lawful. E.g. If he develops hate for his wife and wants to devastate her and drive her to suicide, wouldn’t that make murder a legal motivation for divorce? How then can such a ‘murder’ be legal? Or, if he claims that suicide is legal and thus cannot be seen as murder, what if he divorces her for “a reason” that involves breaking one of the ten commandments?

 

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[meltzerboy]

I’m personally interested in knowing what Jewish marital vows are. It seems to me that if fertility is not a guarantee, a vow could not be based on it. The Jewish people allow divorce, Catholics do not. Yet Catholics emphasize procreation as the purpose of marriage. Infertility can become part of the shared cross of the married couple. Since divorce is not permitted, this would imply an apparent contradiction in cases where the reason for the union is not obtainable.

On what basis is a Jewish divorce permitted? The Talmud says he can divorce her for any reason, including spoiling his dinner? My question on that part is very serious. “Any reason” might include a sinful reason, which can never be lawful. E.g. If he develops hate for his wife and wants to devastate her and drive her to suicide, wouldn’t that make murder a legal motivation for divorce? How then can such a ‘murder’ be legal? Or, if he claims that suicide is legal and thus cannot be seen as murder, what if he divorces her for “a reason” that involves breaking one of the ten commandments?

The actual vows–particularly in an Orthodox Jewish wedding ceremony–are in the form of the act of the husband’s placing a ring on the bride’s index finger, which is closest to her heart, and reciting a prayer. The bride remains silent, thus tacitly acquiescing. The customs in Conservative Judaism and Reform Judaism vary with respect to the spoken words. It is the ceremonial act of giving the bride a valuable object (ring) that represents the melding of two souls as one. There is a sanctification part to the wedding which precedes the ceremony and involves a written contract (ketubah).

With regard to divorce, one must obtain what is called a “get” for a divorce to be binding according to Jewish Law. This entails a substantial payment of money by the husband to his wife. The rationale for divorce in Judaism is that resentment and bitterness within a marriage separates both husband and wife from G-d as well as from each other. Moreover, there are instances in which divorce is mandatory; for example, in the case of marital infidelity. For all its strictness in rituals, Judaism is also a religion which often intertwines morality and practicality. You would have to ask a rabbi or other authority about the specific issues you raise concerning divorce.