How do Mormons actually believe what they do?

[RebeccaJ]

Sorry, don’t see the issue here. I have no problem with it being a teaching of the church as I have explained. However, Lax asked if it is an “official” teaching and I couldn’t find anything to that effect. It looks like Rebecca has found it in a teacher’s manual which may indicate it is “official”. Fine.

The issue, is the LDS misinterpretation of Christian scripture. The root of this issue being, IMO, a lack of understanding Who Jesus is.

In every way, in every prophecy and every law, God’s activity among us, towards our salvation, is perfected in Jesus Christ. What is completed, is our salvation. Jesus said it Himself, on the cross,“It is finished.” When scripture references Jesus being made perfect, it isn’t saying Jesus, Himself, as a Person, was previously imperfect.

Jesus is The Word of God, and the Word of God is not and never has been imperfect. What is made perfect, is God’s plan of our Salvation.Jesus is Salvation itself. Jesus being made perfect is God revealing to us, His perfect Word. God could never not be perfect, as though there was a purpose to fail, or, that God can fail. God’s perfection is revealed in Jesus Christ. A perfection that is revealed to us as new, in the context of human history. In the context of who God is, the perfection of God is always there. God revealed to us what is.

 

[Janderich]

Other than a few Bible verses, what are the multiple sources?

Other than a few Bible verses? I would suggest you not treat the Bible so cavalierly, but instead study the verses consider them and pray to understand them.

Does the spirit of the lord speak different truths to different people or does everyone get the same message?

The spirit of the Lord may guide people in different ways based on what they are seeking or their individual needs. However, as you know, truth is always the same.

Why would you believe the Bible scriptures you posted about Jesus when you don’t take the Bible literally in other circumstances, such as “there is no marriage in heaven”?

I believe you are referring to Matt 22:23-33, Mark 12:18-25, and Luke 20:27-36, where in Jesus says, “For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.” Actually the LDS take this scripture more literally than Catholics do. For the key to Jesus’ message is found in understanding the Greek words for “marry” and “given in marriage”. A non-LDS Bible scholar has made this plain, he says:

The case put forward by the Sadducees is particularly extreme. Not only had six brothers attempted and failed to impregnate the woman in question, but she had also outlived them all and was single when she died. It is perhaps this last fact which prompts the question: Whose spouse will she be in the resurrection?..Jesus stresses that in the age to come people will neither marry nor be given in marriage. Notice what Jesus does not say. He does not say there will be no marriage in the age to come. The use of the terms “γαμουσιν” (gamousin) and “γαμιζονται” (gamizontai) is important, for these terms refer to the gender-specific roles played in early Jewish society by the man and the woman in the process of getting married. The men, being the initiators of the process in such a strongly patriarchal culture, “marry,” while the women are “given in marriage” by their father or another older family member. Thus Mark has Jesus saying that no new marriages will be initiated in the eschatological [resurrection] state. This is surely not the same as claiming that all existing marriages will disappear in the eschatological state. (Ben Witherington III, The Gospel of Mark: A Socio-Rhetorical Commentary p. 328 italics added)

 

[Janderich]

May make it official? What makes a LDS church teaching certainly official?

My experience with Catholic’s on this site is that they always want to know what is “official”. But again, you will not find a definitive answer outside of this: The Holy Ghost will whisper the truth to members of the church. This is as it should be.

 

[Jerusha]

Mormonism speculates so much, Catholicism invokes biblehub.com/1_corinthians/13-12.htm We mere human beings know so little.

 

[lax16]

Other than a few Bible verses? I would suggest you not treat the Bible so cavalierly, but instead study the verses consider them and pray to understand them.

Ah, the personal attack. That didn’t take long.

What are the multitude of sources, other than the few Bible scriptures you quoted, that say Jesus was not perfect until after his death and resurrection? You made the claim now you should back it up.

The spirit of the may guide people in different ways based on what they are seeking or their individual needs. However, as you know, truth is always the same.

The Holy Spirit has always guided the Church, as Jesus promised, and it has always been taught that Jesus was perfect.
If there is only one truth which spirit is lying?

I believe you are referring to Matt 22:23-33, Mark 12:18-25, and Luke 20:27-36, where in Jesus says, “For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.” Actually the LDS take this scripture more literally than Catholics do. For the key to Jesus’ message is found in understanding the Greek words for “marry” and “given in marriage”. A non-LDS Bible scholar has made this plain, he says:

I’m sure I could find a “biblical scholar” somewhere that could prove just about anything I want.

 

[RebeccaJ]

My experience with Catholic’s on this site is that they always want to know what is “official”. But again, you will not find a definitive answer outside of this: The Holy Ghost will whisper the truth to members of the church. This is as it should be.

Circular reasoning. Do you not see it?

And also, I didn’t ask what makes an LDS church teaching true to an individual Mormon, but what makes an LDS teaching official.

Is each LDS church teaching only official to the Mormon church, when each individual Mormon agrees it is a truth?

 

[Horton]

My experience with Catholic’s on this site is that they always want to know what is “official”. But again, you will not find a definitive answer outside of this: The Holy Ghost will whisper the truth to members of the church. This is as it should be.

So does this mean there is no “official” teaching with the LDS? It is all left open to personal interpretation?

You say the Holy Spirit will “whisper” the truth to members of the church. *Disclaimer - I am not now nor ever will consider becoming LDS. To take your statement through a logical process, I would have to first join the LDS and THEN have the truth whispered to me? Is this why the LDS baptize within a couple of weeks of the missionaries visiting?

When I think of Christianity and joining Christian faiths I’m struck by the difference. I was a protestant before converting to the Catholic Church and in both there was a significant period of instruction before professing my faith. (I was baptized as an infant in the trinitarian formula.) For me the Holy Spirit whispered to prior to my profession of faith as a teen in my protestant church and the Holy Spirit certainly whispered to me prior to my confirmation in the Catholic Church. In fact I think there were time He shouted to me.

As far as marriage in heaven - I love my family & friends and I look forward to the day I get to see those who have gone before me but the most important thing I look forward to is to see the face of our Lord. The LDS concept of heaven is one of the bigger signs it is a false religion. The LDS see heaven as all about them, how many wives they have, how many children they have, how much money they have, what positions in the church they held…its all about them.

For Christians heaven is all about God. The things of earth will no longer apply. When my time comes, the only thing God will ask of me is, did I do everything I could to love Him.

 

[sheepcat]

I ran into this difficulty when reasoning with LDS missionaries.

Q: How do you know your interpretation of this verse is correct? A: The Holy Ghost guides us.

Q: Does the Holy Ghost guide people to different answers? A: The Holy Ghost only guides members of the true Church.

Q: How do you know that you’re the true Church? A: Because of the guidance of the Holy Ghost.

Q: How do you know that my “testimony” of the Holy Ghost isn’t true? A: Because if it were, it would lead you to LDS beliefs. Try praying harder!

In short: their certainty depends on their own personal testimony, or “the whisperings of the Holy Ghost” as it’s been put in this thread. Non-LDS members’ personal testimony doesn’t count, since they’re not really being led by the Holy Ghost, but by Satan.

Church history counts for nothing, since it’s only the apostate Church of the Devil that survived through the centuries. No evidence of Mormon belief in the early centuries? That’s proof of how effective those evil Catholics were at suppressing the true faith!

Secular history, DNA, evidence against the BoM or J. S. Jr.'s credibility, archaeology: why listen to these external voices when the voice of the Holy Ghost has already revealed that Joseph Smith is a prophet and the CoJCoLDS is the true Church?

Again… I don’t know what I can do to break through. Ultimately it depends on the Holy Spirit, but it seems on the surface that they’re well trained to ignore contrary arguments and evidence.

 

[lax16]

My experience with Catholic’s on this site is that they always want to know what is “official”. But again, you will not find a definitive answer outside of this: The Holy Ghost will whisper the truth to members of the church. This is as it should be.

Are you suggesting that if someone wants to know Mormon teaching on a subject they should ask the Holy Ghost instead of the LDS church for the answer??

 

[lax16]

I ran into this difficulty when reasoning with LDS missionaries.

Q: How do you know your interpretation of this verse is correct? A: The Holy Ghost guides us.

Q: Does the Holy Ghost guide people to different answers? A: The Holy Ghost only guides members of the true Church.

Q: How do you know that you’re the true Church? A: Because of the guidance of the Holy Ghost.

Q: How do you know that my “testimony” of the Holy Ghost isn’t true? A: Because if it were, it would lead you to LDS beliefs. Try praying harder!

In short: their certainty depends on their own personal testimony, or “the whisperings of the Holy Ghost” as it’s been put in this thread. Non-LDS members’ personal testimony doesn’t count, since they’re not really being led by the Holy Ghost, but by Satan.

Church history counts for nothing, since it’s only the apostate Church of the Devil that survived through the centuries. No evidence of Mormon belief in the early centuries? That’s proof of how effective those evil Catholics were at suppressing the true faith!

Secular history, DNA, evidence against the BoM or J. S. Jr.'s credibility, archaeology: why listen to these external voices when the voice of the Holy Ghost has already revealed that Joseph Smith is a prophet and the CoJCoLDS is the true Church?

Again… I don’t know what I can do to break through. Ultimately it depends on the Holy Spirit, but it seems on the surface that they’re well trained to ignore contrary arguments and evidence.

True story. We have a (now former) Mormon friend that put his son on ADD meds because the spirit told him to. His son ended up addicted to the meds and other substances as well.

Now they regret putting him on the meds. They were devout Mormons at the time. Hmmmm…

 

[Janderich]

What are the multitude of sources, other than the few Bible scriptures you quoted, that say Jesus was not perfect until after his death and resurrection? You made the claim now you should back it up.

I encourage you to review previous posts in this same thread on the topic and you will see the multiple sources. Also, have you studied the verses given to you? What is your conclusion?

The Holy Spirit has always guided the Church, as Jesus promised, and it has always been taught that Jesus was perfect. If there is only one truth which spirit is lying?

And yet it has not always been taught, as given in the scriptures earlier provided. You must account for these.

 

[Janderich]

Circular reasoning. Do you not see it?

And also, I didn’t ask what makes an LDS church teaching true to an individual Mormon, but what makes an LDS teaching official.

Is each LDS church teaching only official to the Mormon church, when each individual Mormon agrees it is a truth?

Official doctrine has been accepted six times in the church since it’s restoration in 1830. It requires the sustaining vote of the first presidency, the quorum of the twelve apostles, and then the membership of the church. All of this doctrine is found in the Bible, The Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price. I would encourage you to read these sources of truth.

Other items such as talks, books, lessons, etc. are important sources of truth but would not be considered “official”.

 

[Janderich]

So does this mean there is no “official” teaching with the LDS? It is all left open to personal interpretation?

You say the Holy Spirit will “whisper” the truth to members of the church. *Disclaimer - I am not now nor ever will consider becoming LDS. To take your statement through a logical process, I would have to first join the LDS and THEN have the truth whispered to me? Is this why the LDS baptize within a couple of weeks of the missionaries visiting?

The opportunity to have truth revealed by the Holy Ghost is not simply limited to members of the LDS church. If it were then there would indeed be confusion and few would join. But as James said, “If any of you lack wisdom let him ask of God”. Any person may ask, and if they are open, sincere, and ask in faith they may know the truth.

In your case you declare, “Disclaimer - I am not now nor ever will consider becoming LDS…”, and so you have already cut yourself off from finding some forms of truth. It is this very attitude, among others, that prevents the Holy Ghost from testifying to you about certain subjects.

Now, I don’t particularly worry if you are LDS or not, but I do worry about you being open to the truth as whispered by the Holy Ghost. And so I urge you not to cut yourself of from his influence.

 

[AttendeDomine]

And so I urge you not to cut yourself of from his influence.

… the fullness of which we as Catholics are incredibly grateful to possess in the Sacraments.

Would that all would listen to the Holy Spirit as He spoken through the Church for 20 centuries now, rather than to the innumerable false prophets that have led Christ’s sheep astray, exchanging the truth for a lie of most bizarre proportions.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Official doctrine has been accepted six times in the church since it’s restoration in 1830. It requires the sustaining vote of the first presidency, the quorum of the twelve apostles, and then the membership of the church. All of this doctrine is found in the Bible, The Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price. I would encourage you to read these sources of truth.

Other items such as talks, books, lessons, etc. are important sources of truth but would not be considered “official”.

I asked about official teachings, not official doctrines. (See post #78.)

You seem to be sidetracked. As a reminder, in your post #73, you said a teaching of the LDS church may be official. The “may” implying that it may not be official.

Are you saying now, that the lesson manuals that the LDS church publishes, that are used to teach LDS members from 3 years of age until death, do not contain official teachings of the LDS church?

 

[RebeccaJ]

And yet it has not always been taught, as given in the scriptures earlier provided. You must account for these.

Yes indeed, 2000 years and no one noticed that there were these passages included in the Bible.

 

[Janderich]

I asked about official teachings, not official doctrines. (See post #78.)

You seem to be sidetracked. As a reminder, in your post #73, you said a teaching of the LDS church may be official. The “may” implying that it may not be official.

Are you saying now, that the lesson manuals that the LDS church publishes, that are used to teach LDS members from 3 years of age until death, do not contain official teachings of the LDS church?

Hi Rebecca, I hope you are doing well.

Official teachings are known as doctrine.

While I’m sure committees take much care in defining what the manuals contain, every word in every manual is not necessarily official doctrine of the church. This is simply a fact. You can whine and say manuals contain official teaching but the church does not define it’s doctrine in that manner.

The Church has confined the sources of doctrine by which it is willing to be bound before the world to the things that God has revealed, and which the Church has officially accepted, and* those alone*. These would include the Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants, the Pearl of Great Price; these have been repeatedly accepted and endorsed by the Church in general conference assembled, and are the only sources of absolute appeal for our doctrine. (B.H. Roberts, sermon July 10, 1921, italics added)

 

[adamhovey1988]

Hi Rebecca, I hope you are doing well.

Official teachings are known as doctrine.

While I’m sure committees take much care in defining what the manuals contain, every word in every manual is not necessarily official doctrine of the church. This is simply a fact. You can whine and say manuals contain official teaching but the church does not define it’s doctrine in that manner.

Using history, logic, and the Bible, could you tell me why I SHOULD be Mormon?

 

[Horton]

The opportunity to have truth revealed by the Holy Ghost is not simply limited to members of the LDS church. If it were then there would indeed be confusion and few would join. But as James said, “If any of you lack wisdom let him ask of God”. Any person may ask, and if they are open, sincere, and ask in faith they may know the truth.

In your case you declare, “Disclaimer - I am not now nor ever will consider becoming LDS…”, and so you have already cut yourself off from finding some forms of truth. It is this very attitude, among others, that prevents the Holy Ghost from testifying to you about certain subjects.

Now, I don’t particularly worry if you are LDS or not, but I do worry about you being open to the truth as whispered by the Holy Ghost. And so I urge you not to cut yourself of from his influence.

No worries. I am open the the guidance of the Holy Spirit, actually dependant on Him to guide me through my life. The Holy Spirit led me to the one Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. The Church Jesus Christ founded and has been continuous since then.

It is well with my soul.

 

[lax16]

I encourage you to review previous posts in this same thread on the topic and you will see the multiple sources. Also, have you studied the verses given to you? What is your conclusion?
And yet it has not always been taught, as given in the scriptures earlier provided. You must account for these.

I’ve reviewed the entire thread and other than your post #36 quoting JS I don’t see any other sources, let alone a multitude.

It has always been taught? Please provide sources for this as well.