How do Mormons actually believe what they do?

[sheepcat]

I think it’s important to be charitable in interfaith discussions (well, other times too, but especially.) Forbearance!

That said, I am curious about why people believe what they do. When I became Catholic, it was based on the teaching of the Bible, the trail of evidence showing that the beliefs and practices of the first several Christian centuries were Catholic (or at the very least, proto-Catholic), and reason - for example, why would Sola Scriptura be God’s rule of faith if for the majority of Christian history, most people were illiterate or couldn’t access a Bible? There’s more.

But why do people convert to the LDS faith? I understand that people born and raised in a certain religious environment do not readily abandon it, particularly when they’ve been taught to put full stock in emotional experiences above reason or history. But converts? Can’t tell. Are there any LDS on here who’ve converted, rather than being “children of the covenant?”

 

[jane_doe]

I think it’s important to be charitable in interfaith discussions (well, other times too, but especially.) Forbearance!

That said, I am curious about why people believe what they do. When I became Catholic, it was based on the teaching of the Bible, the trail of evidence showing that the beliefs and practices of the first several Christian centuries were Catholic (or at the very least, proto-Catholic), and reason - for example, why would Sola Scriptura be God’s rule of faith if for the majority of Christian history, most people were illiterate or couldn’t access a Bible? There’s more.

But why do people convert to the LDS faith? I understand that people born and raised in a certain religious environment do not readily abandon it, particularly when they’ve been taught to put full stock in emotional experiences above reason or history. But converts? Can’t tell. Are there any LDS on here who’ve converted, rather than being “children of the covenant?”

You might like this: mormonconverts.com

 

[Horton]

[en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borg_(Star_Trek](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borg_(Star_Trek)

 

[sheepcat]

Thanks for the reference, Jane. I’m not remotely considering abandoning the Church founded by Christ on Peter, the rock, or the faith “once and for all delivered to the saints”, but from a psychological and social point of view, I’m curious. I just finished a book by Isaiah Bennett, a convert to then from Mormonism, and he’s a bit confused as to why he did it. The mystery remains!

 

[jane_doe]

Thanks for the reference, Jane. I’m not remotely considering abandoning the Church founded by Christ on Peter, the rock, or the faith “once and for all delivered to the saints”, but from a psychological and social point of view, I’m curious. I just finished a book by Isaiah Bennett, a convert to then from Mormonism, and he’s a bit confused as to why he did it. The mystery remains!

I totally get the sentiment (I’m here to satisfy curiosity about Catholicism, after all )

 

[zaffiroborant]

Would you not say a Catholic is the best person to ask why a Catholic beliefs?

I would say that the Catholic in front of you is the best person to explain why they believe. I don’t think anyone can make that explanation for another. As a Catholic I can’t explain WHY Fred believes Catholic teaching only he can explain that.

 

[zaffiroborant]

Because I find it to be the most in line with scripture, logic, my observations of life/nature/sociology, and my personal conversations with God.

I find history and “because someone told me so” to be poor methodologies for discerning truth (both are secondary sources).

I respect that other people’s views differ, and have no interest in critically dissecting their reasons, or vise versa.

I find Catholicism to be most in line with scripture, particularly when taken as a whole, I find it to be farm more logical, and it presents the single most coherent and all encompassing understanding of human nature. It also respects the differences in individuals and their calling in life, the LDS church absolutely has no use or respect for those who don’t fit in with marriage and family. The LDS church has a myopic (to the point of being crippled, misshapen) view of humanity. Through prayer, study, reflection and time to sit quietly and just hear God I find that any other church it just hollow, and sad they lack the depth and soul satisfaction found in the Catholic church. The history is just a bonus, a bonus the LDS church is also lacking.

 

[Horton]

I find Catholicism to be most in line with scripture, particularly when taken as a whole, I find it to be farm more logical, and it presents the single most coherent and all encompassing understanding of human nature. It also respects the differences in individuals and their calling in life, the LDS church absolutely has no use or respect for those who don’t fit in with marriage and family. The LDS church has a myopic (to the point of being crippled, misshapen) view of humanity. Through prayer, study, reflection and time to sit quietly and just hear God I find that any other church it just hollow, and sad they lack the depth and soul satisfaction found in the Catholic church. The history is just a bonus, a bonus the LDS church is also lacking.

 

[iepuras]

And to be clear - it’s wrong for Catholics to believe “because someone told them to” but it’s right for the LDS?

I don’t believe it’s a good reason for anyone to believe anything, hence why I described it as a poor method for discerned truth.

I don’t think “because someone told them” is necessarily a poor method for discerning truth. There is likely a lot of what you accept as truth because someone else who is trustworthy told you.

I believe that Barack Obama is President of the United States because other people told me that he won election twice. I didn’t count the votes myself and I certainly didn’t observe the election myself. I rely on others to tell me, and I accept it as truth. I accept that there is a Great Wall in China because others have seen it and told me and others that it exists. I rely on their word when they take photographs that the photographs are in fact of the Great Wall in China.

I could go on and on of examples of truth that I believe based on the experiences and testimony of others. I believe scientific truths because of the experiments and observations of others. I frankly don’t have the time to do it all myself so I rely on others to tell me.

 

[Horton]

I don’t think “because someone told them” is necessarily a poor method for discerning truth. There is likely a lot of what you accept as truth because someone else who is trustworthy told you.

I believe that Barack Obama is President of the United States because other people told me that he won election twice. I didn’t count the votes myself and I certainly didn’t observe the election myself. I rely on others to tell me, and I accept it as truth. I accept that there is a Great Wall in China because others have seen it and told me and others that it exists. I rely on their word when they take photographs that the photographs are in fact of the Great Wall in China.

I could go on and on of examples of truth that I believe based on the experiences and testimony of others. I believe scientific truths because of the experiments and observations of others. I frankly don’t have the time to do it all myself so I rely on others to tell me.

Exactly! We’re not “borgs” following some illogical fantasy. We believe as Catholics because a lot of really smart people, some 1700-2000 years ago (ie…ECFs) studied scripture, Scared Tradition, tradition and early writings to determine the Truth. We as Catholics then needed to discern whether or not we believed them to be right. We don’t believe “because someone” told us to, we believe because the Truth is evident in the early history of the Catholic Church. Since this history is well documented as opposed to the Joseph Smith “history” of the church, I choose to believe the Catholic Church is the One, Holy, Apostolic Church.

 

[Brandon_Cal]

I don’t think “because someone told them” is necessarily a poor method for discerning truth. There is likely a lot of what you accept as truth because someone else who is trustworthy told you.

I believe that Barack Obama is President of the United States because other people told me that he won election twice. I didn’t count the votes myself and I certainly didn’t observe the election myself. I rely on others to tell me, and I accept it as truth. I accept that there is a Great Wall in China because others have seen it and told me and others that it exists. I rely on their word when they take photographs that the photographs are in fact of the Great Wall in China.

I could go on and on of examples of truth that I believe based on the experiences and testimony of others. I believe scientific truths because of the experiments and observations of others. I frankly don’t have the time to do it all myself so I rely on others to tell me.

Precisely! It’s a matter of trustworthiness. Unless one wants to live their entire life as a cynical conspiracy theorist about pretty much anything in life they cannot personally validate due to lack of access or credentials we all have to believe things based on nothing more than the testimony of others. Where our individual thinking comes in is in deciding if that testimony is credible.

 

[cmodrmac]

The Mormon faith is a fast growing church with an impressive missionary record-the wholesome family life fostered by the church I assume attracts people-they accepted the ban on polygamy so that they could be admitted to the Union as a state-the practice is fairly impractical in the present times-Jesus did walk the earth and was a Man -of course the Mormons leave out the Divine part

 

[Marie5890]

The Mormon faith is a fast growing church with an impressive missionary record-the wholesome family life fostered by the church I assume attracts people-they accepted the ban on polygamy so that they could be admitted to the Union as a state-the practice is fairly impractical in the present times-Jesus did walk the earth and was a Man -of course the Mormons leave out the Divine part

Truth be told, its not fast growing as people think. If you look at the trends of the past decade or so. It’s pretty flat, year to year.

And the increase of LDS missionaries that happened just a couple of years ago? Barely a change in the number of converts.

 

[drac16]

With the attack on family values as of late [like same-sex marriage and blurring the lines between genders], I imagine that mormon doctrine is quite seductive because it’s got family-based teachings at the core. They believe that they’ll reproduce spirit children throughout the course of eternity. Moreover, they often get baptised on behalf of a deceased relative. You can pass the baton, so to speak. You pass on that baptism on to a deceased relative so that the deceased relative will gain the merits of a baptism.

Typically, though, they’re all about their testimony, which they believe is the work of The Holy Spirit. They think that that proves something (for reasons that are best known to them).

 

[Horton]

The Mormon faith is a fast growing church with an impressive missionary record-the wholesome family life fostered by the church I assume attracts people-they accepted the ban on polygamy so that they could be admitted to the Union as a state-the practice is fairly impractical in the present times-Jesus did walk the earth and was a Man -of course the Mormons leave out the Divine part

The LDS is not growing, in fact it is declining as more of the truth of the JS history comes out.

As far as missionary work, think about the work the Catholic Church does in its parishes and the world. Think about the missionary work most Christian faith communities does. Just because we don’t go door to door with the sole purpose of converting does mean we don’t do mission work. It is my belief that we, Christians, do better mission work because we do it for the love of Jesus Christ, not Joseph Smith & the LDS. We do it to serve our community and our God.

Please point out to me any Christian faith that doesn’t promote wholesome family values. The LDS did not corner that market.:banghead:

 

[Brandon_Cal]

With the attack on family values as of late [like same-sex marriage and blurring the lines between genders], I imagine that mormon doctrine is quite seductive because it’s got family-based teachings at the core. They believe that they’ll reproduce spirit children throughout the course of eternity. Moreover, they often get baptised on behalf of a deceased relative. You can pass the baton, so to speak. You pass on that baptism on to a deceased relative so that the deceased relative will gain the merits of a baptism.

Typically, though, they’re all about their testimony, which they believe is the work of The Holy Spirit. They think that that proves something (for reasons that are best known to them).

You sound like a Muslim who has been visited by LDS missionaries.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

There are two things that puzzle me about Mormonism, first they believe God is really just a powerful superman. They might use all the correct (Christian sounding) adjectives but when it boils down their God is just one of a series of Gods and this to me begs a simple question, why does this God deserve worship? Who is he? What compels us to worship him? He when we think about it, is a super charged man of flesh and bone, with organs which function much like ours. It can’t be that he in of himself compels worship because he was not always what he was, he had to become a new kind of being, rather it seems the cosmos has declared its simply his turn to receive worship because he did what was necessary in his age. Heavenly Father is not the end, he is just the means to the end we want, ie to become Gods. It seems that this is some sort of cosmic principle within the universe according to Mormonism rather than a divine principle (A divine principle being something which comes from God).

Secondly I wonder why is it Mormons don’t seem to want to speculate on the nature of their religion more often. There’s a website specifically designed to have people ask Mormon apologists questions and usually they always answer the questions with “I don’t know,” or “that’s not for us to say,” or even more condescendingly “You should pray about that!” When we think of the mormon universe or universes it really is quite amazing how many mormons don’t want to speculate, probably because they feel embarrassed by the consequences of their beliefs. There are strange dilemmas to which they can’t adequately respond. If you bring up heavenly Mother and ask why she isn’t honoured (as Heavenly Father is honoured) when she was apparently necessary to bring about our existence as beings, they can’t say. Why should she be worthy of any less veneration than the Father? Without Heavenly Mother we would not exist as God the Father alone is apparently impotent without a divine womb of sorts. We could also speculate as to the nature of heavenly Mother that perhaps there is not only one, but rather many heavenly Mothers. After all if Joseph Smiths wives were sealed to him (and Mormons cannot say he sinned but still defend Joseph Smiths various polygamous marriages), will they not all be heavenly Mothers in the world Joseph Smith inherits to create life? What about the wives whom were married to other men whom Joseph? Will they spend one thousand years on one planet or universe and then move to another? Why is not Heavenly Father’s Heavenly Father someone to be venerated as the person by which Heavenly Father was divinised? Who should the Mormon love more, his wife or his God? Perhaps now while he is imperfect he should love his Father more but when he becomes perfect as his Father in heaven is perfect, to whom does he owe more allegiance then? To the one who will possibly bear all his spiritual children or to his heavenly Father?

Mormon theology honestly boggles my mind as to how anyone might seriously believe it, that the consequences of such a belief really are too catastrophic to even contemplate fully.

 

[Janderich]

There are two things that puzzle me about Mormonism, first they believe God is really just a powerful superman. They might use all the correct (Christian sounding) adjectives but when it boils down their God is just one of a series of Gods and this to me begs a simple question, why does this God deserve worship? Who is he? What compels us to worship him? He when we think about it, is a super charged man of flesh and bone, with organs which function much like ours. It can’t be that he in of himself compels worship because he was not always what he was, he had to become a new kind of being, rather it seems the cosmos has declared its simply his turn to receive worship because he did what was necessary in his age. Heavenly Father is not the end, he is just the means to the end we want, ie to become Gods. It seems that this is some sort of cosmic principle within the universe according to Mormonism rather than a divine principle (A divine principle being something which comes from God).

…

Mormon theology honestly boggles my mind as to how anyone might seriously believe it, that the consequences of such a belief really are too catastrophic to even contemplate fully.

Let me answer this first question. You did not ask it, but we must begin by defining worship. Is worship simply scraping, bowing, prayer, and song? Is it thinking how impossibly amazing God is and how we are dirt and could never over endless time approach him? Will such actions get us to heaven? No. So what will?

The Lord revealed further scripture to Joseph from the writings of John.

And I, John saw that he [Christ] received not of the fulness at the first, but received grace for grace: and he received not of the fulness at first, but continued from grace to grace, until he received a fulness…(D&C 93:12-13

The Lord then explains why he gave us this added scripture,

I give unto you these sayings that you may understand and know how to worship, and know what you worship, that you may come unto the Father in my name, and in due time receive of his fulness. For if you keep my commandments you shall receive of his fulness, and be glorified in me as I am in the Father; therefore, I say unto you, you shall receive grace for grace. (D&C 93:19-20)

The truest form of worship consists in emulating the Son of God. It consists in obeying the commandments and progressing from grace to grace until we receive a fulness of the Father.

Anything less than this is only a limited form of worship. It is fraught with confusion and misunderstanding. It sets up stakes and tells a man that he can bow to God but only follow him so far. That he must feel God is forever beyond him not just in progression but in form. That he is a worm and God is impossible to comprehend. Such a belief does not make God great, it just limits man. It is as though a false chasm has been created and the rulers of Christendom have declared, “You shall not pass!”

 

[Horton]

Let me answer this first question. You did not ask it, but we must begin by defining worship. Is worship simply scraping, bowing, prayer, and song? Is it thinking how impossibly amazing God is and how we are dirt and could never over endless time approach him? Will such actions get us to heaven? No. So what will?

The Lord revealed further scripture to Joseph from the writings of John. The Lord then explains why he gave us this added scripture, The truest form of worship consists in emulating the Son of God. It consists in obeying the commandments and progressing from grace to grace until we receive a fulness of the Father.

Anything less than this is only a limited form of worship. It is fraught with confusion and misunderstanding. It sets up stakes and tells a man that he can bow to God but only follow him so far. That he must feel God is forever beyond him not just in progression but in form. That he is a worm and God is impossible to comprehend. Such a belief does not make God great, it just limits man. It is as though a false chasm has been created and the rulers of Christendom have declared, “You shall not pass!”

First quoting JS as scripture has absolutely zero meaning to Christians. Second your “theory” of what worship is has flaws. We worship God the Father, God the Son, & God the Holy Spirit.

The definition of worship*: the act of showing respect and love for God especially by praying with other people who believe in the same God : the act of worshipping God.*

We worship by participating in the Mass, receiving the sacraments, living our faith, doing good works because we choose to, not because we are told or “called” to do works. We worship during our prayer time. Worship is NOT simply “scraping, bowing, prayer, and songs”. Your theory of how to get to heaven has serious flaws.

 

[jas84173]

They love that verse from James, “if anyone seeks knowledge pray on it”. I am sure James the just was not implying this to reading the BOM. James was a Jewish Christian and he was actually against the complete schism of Judaism and Christianity.