How do Mormons view Our Lady?

[Miriam1947]

Clarification:

The adult women of the LDS faith are within the ranks of the “Relief Society”, which is among the largest and oldest organizations of the world. To illustrate what women in that organization do, four of them (within their 20s and 30s) recently delivered to me and my wife, after the death of our child, a solid week of homemade crockpot meals. Think of their ages for a moment…Three of these women already have young children, two were presently pregnant, and the one without any children has a full-time job and is the President of this aforementioned organization (within a geographic boundary).

Isn’t it wonderful to see women within our distinct Churches set themselves apart, and be “lights unto the world?” Furthermore, isn’t it great to see that both your church and mine have literal organizations and structures (or “a house of order”) whereby such Christlike care can be administered?

Oldest? Really? The mormon church is not even 200 years old so I find it difficult to believe it to have one of the oldest organizations in the world. Perhaps you are confusing the RS with the Catholic Church which started the first hospitals, universities, etc.

 

[Miriam1947]

However, these churches do disparage the LDS church. I have heard it refer to as a cult for example by other religious leaders. Or they refer to the LDS church as not Christian. According to my research the comment about the Catholic Church was made by Bruce McConkie and it was rejected by the LDS leadership. I suppose that people are entitled to have an opinion. However, I think that the LDS church has cleaned up their act now. Why bring up the past? Everyone can go back in time and find whoppers.

For many years the LDS church was proud to be called not Christian. It is only lately that they have tried to become mainstream and called Christian.

I watched a very interesting video with a former Mormon who was adamant that he not be called a Christian when he was LDS.

 

[zaffiroborant]

I appreciate your desire for sources. I suppose one would have to compare numbers of membership between organizations, but so far as I can tell, not all parties openly disclose the number of their members. This info is certainly going to have to come from the entities themselves, and some might claim the organization’s data could be biased.

It appears Relief Society membership numbers between 5.2 and 6 million women. It was started in 1842, with Emma Smith (the wife of Joseph Smith) as President.
mormonwiki.com/Relief_Society
mormonnewsroom.org/article/relief-society
lds.org/callings/relief-society/relief-society-presidents/emma-hale-smith

The history of when women’s organizations started is easier data. Interestingly, the International Association of Charity, a Catholic charity, numbers 200,000. It was apparently founded in 1619. Their site clarifies that most of their membership are women.
aic-international.org/content.php?m=1&l=en

After a quick Googling of “largest women organizations”, one can find this page.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_women’s_organizations

It appears the YWCA also claims to be the largest and oldest women’s organization, but I don’t believe some facts check out when one compares their history or numbers to those of the Relief Society.

YWCA
ywca.org/site/c.cuIRJ7NTKrLaG/b.7515891/k.C524/History.htm

LDS Relief Society
mormonnewsroom.org/article/relief-society-history
There are additional sources related to the Relief Society at the bottom of the page.

Certainly one can argue what are “fair” requirements for a “Woman’s Organization,” but what is more important are whether the organizations help our communities, and our world. I’m grateful there are so many women’s organizations built up with the end goal of helping God’s children, wherever they may be.

Is there an organization or data that I have overlooked? If so, feel free to provide data pertaining to my assertion.

Well your original post didn’t specify “woman’s” organization so the Masons came immediately to mind. As to RS being a woman’s organization, I can’t call it one when it’s leaders are chosen my men, it’s budget is determined by men and it’s manuals are written by men. The RS members are controlled in all aspects by men.

 

[mrgloop]

Oldest? Really? The mormon church is not even 200 years old so I find it difficult to believe it to have one of the oldest organizations in the world. Perhaps you are confusing the RS with the Catholic Church which started the first hospitals, universities, etc.

Correction, and my apologies: When referring to the Relief Society, it appears I failed to place the qualifying word “woman’s” before organization. I was referring to “woman’s organization”, not “organization” alone. Good catch, Miriam

 

[Miriam1947]

Correction, and my apologies: When referring to the Relief Society, it appears I failed to place the qualifying word “woman’s” before organization. I was referring to “woman’s organization”, not “organization” alone. Good catch, Miriam

Thanks.

For oldest women’s organizations we could look to the orders of women religious in the Catholic Church. They have been feeding the poor, caring for the sick, teaching children and generally making life better (regardless of the religion of the neediest) for hundreds of years.

They are quite a bit older than the RS.

 

[mrgloop]

Well your original post didn’t specify “woman’s” organization so the Masons came immediately to mind. As to RS being a woman’s organization, I can’t call it one when it’s leaders are chosen my men, it’s budget is determined by men and it’s manuals are written by men. The RS members are controlled in all aspects by men.

My friend, you are somehow mixing that men are the Priesthood. Understand that in our Church, although only men hold the Priesthood, they are not THE Priesthood. “Priesthood” leaders are males, but they call male and females to particular positions in the Church. Those they call have the opportunity to reject the call. Many do reject calls. But also, many don’t, and server wonderfully in the capacity by which they are called. They are unpaid ministers, and most admit that although they might have been leery about being called to the position in the beginning, they grew from serving.

Let me and Elder Ballard, a man who we presently revere as a Latter-Day Apostle of the Lord, help you understand the difference.

“In our Heavenly Father’s great priesthood-endowed plan, men have the unique responsibility to administer the priesthood, but they are not the priesthood. Men and women have different but equally valued roles. Just as a woman cannot conceive a child without a man, so a man cannot fully exercise the power of the priesthood to establish an eternal family without a woman. In other words, in the eternal perspective, both the procreative power and the priesthood power are shared by husband and wife. And as husband and wife, a man and a woman should strive to follow our Heavenly Father. The Christian virtues of love, humility, and patience should be their focus as they seek the blessings of the priesthood in their lives and for their family.”
lds.org/general-conference/2013/04/this-is-my-work-and-glory?lang=eng

So now that this has been clarified, you’re saying that because the leaders of the Relief Society are originally called and chosen by men, and they rise to the challenge by accepting the call and performing marvelous service leading 5–6 million women to serve one another, they no longer “count” as a woman’s organization?

 

[invisible_man]

For many years the LDS church was proud to be called not Christian. It is only lately that they have tried to become mainstream and called Christian.

I watched a very interesting video with a former Mormon who was adamant that he not be called a Christian when he was LDS.

I think that since the church has the name of Jesus Christ in it they must have considered themselves Christian. Being called Mormon was a slur on the faith originally. Other Christians never considered Mormons to be Christian. I suppose that Mormons embraced this insult.

 

[invisible_man]

I think that the Mormons who come to the forum are very surprised about the comments directed at the Mormon Church. Mormons don’t expect so much hostility from Catholics, especially since the two church work together so well in the outside world on value issues and charity work.

For example, your jello comment would be a slur against aspects of Mormon culture. Back in the day, Mormons would bring jello for a salad and usually this jello was lime flavoured. No reason to mock it.

 

[mrgloop]

Thanks.

For oldest women’s organizations we could look to the orders of women religious in the Catholic Church. They have been feeding the poor, caring for the sick, teaching children and generally making life better (regardless of the religion of the neediest) for hundreds of years.

They are quite a bit older than the RS.

Women are absolutely wonderful!

My original intention in posting information about the Relief Society was to rebut alleged statements that the Mormons view women as objects.

I quote RebeccaJ, a “Veteran Member”, Religion: Catholic, post #13:

“Women are objects in Mormonism, like a stapler, existing to perform a function. Stepping outside of that function is to go against the Mormon God.”

Apparently Rebecca believe or perceives that Mormons somehow suppress women, which I (and my wife), long time members, believe to be totally untrue. I testify that women are integral and held in tremendous esteem within the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.

…But, there has been some question regarding my claim that the Relief Society is the oldest and largest woman’s organization in the world. That is fair. I have provided some sources to back my statement. Can you provide sources related to the original startup date of these “orders”, as well as membership of those orders? I didn’t originally intend to debate this point, but you’ve now genuinely peaked my interest.

 

[zaffiroborant]

So now that this has been clarified, you’re saying that because the leaders of the Relief Society are originally called and chosen by men, and they rise to the challenge by accepting the call and performing marvelous service leading 5–6 million women to serve one another, they no longer “count” as a woman’s organization?

The bishop calls and sets apart a sister to serve as Relief Society president. He oversees the calling and setting apart of counselors in the ward Relief Society presidency, the ward Relief Society secretary, and other sisters who serve in Relief Society callings. He may assign his counselors to call and set apart these sisters.

The Relief Society presidency consists of a president and two counselors. They are spiritual leaders in the effort to strengthen sisters and their families. They work under the direction of the bishopric.

The leadership of the RS is appointed and directed by the bishop. It is not a women’s organization. It’s women being directed by men, making an organization for women run by men. Similar to how scouting is an organization for children run by adults.

 

[LivingWaters7]

Since Luther and the Protestant Reformation, at what point did Catholics and “other traditional Christians” sing Kumbaya regarding doctrinal differences?

Please cite specifically where I stated or implied anything of the sort. My post that you replied to certainly did not claim such a thing, nor do I believe that. It is clearly obvious that the Protestant churches have strayed, to varying degrees, from the apostolic Truth found in the Catholic Church.

 

[mrgloop]

I think that the Mormons who come to the forum are very surprised about the comments directed at the Mormon Church. Mormons don’t expect so much hostility from Catholics, especially since the two church work together so well in the outside world on value issues and charity work.

For example, your jello comment would be a slur against aspects of Mormon culture. Back in the day, Mormons would bring jello for a salad and usually this jello was lime flavoured. No reason to mock it.

Did someone say Jello? Where?

 

[LivingWaters7]

I think that they are bold in their declarations. I see nothing wrong with that. It shows that they are thinking about such things. I tend to look at the end result. Mormons aren’t so bad. They seem to have their feet on the ground and try to obey what they consider to be the commandments. I don’t think that it matters very much as long as the end result is a person who loves their neighbour etc.

Of course the LDS Church does not agree with such a thing. Doctrines and ordinances matter, otherwise the Restoration would’ve been unnecessary.

You remind me of “why me” over at MDDB.

 

[twopekinguys]

For many years the LDS church was proud to be called not Christian. It is only lately that they have tried to become mainstream and called Christian.

I watched a very interesting video with a former Mormon who was adamant that he not be called a Christian when he was LDS.

You are absolutely right.

It was Gordon B. Hinckley (sp) that openly stated that the jesus mormons worshiped was not the Jesus that traditional Christians worshiped.

1998 is not that distant of a past either.

"The LDS Church News reported: “In bearing testimony of Jesus Christ, President Hinckley spoke of those outside the Church who say Latter-day Saints ‘do not believe in the traditional Christ. No, I don’t. The traditional Christ of whom they speak is not the Christ of whom I speak. For the Christ of whom I speak has been revealed in this the Dispensation of the Fulness [sic] of Times’”
(June 20, 1998, Check it out here.)

 

[twopekinguys]

Of course the LDS Church does not agree with such a thing. Doctrines and ordinances matter, otherwise the Restoration would’ve been unnecessary.

You remind me of “why me” over at MDDB.

I was thing the same thing, except for a couple of minor differences.

He can’t post here any more.

 

[zaffiroborant]

For example, your jello comment would be a slur against aspects of Mormon culture. Back in the day, Mormons would bring jello for a salad and usually this jello was lime flavoured. No reason to mock it.

“Like nailing jello to the wall” is a very common idiom used to indicate that something is impossible. Jello’s popularity among Mormons has nothing to do with this very common idiom.

 

[mrgloop]

cleaned up their act? The lds leaders never really denounced what McKonkie wrote…in fact, the made McKonkie an apostle…so much for big disagreements.

Further, for MANY years after that, a Catholic Priest was still depicted as an agent of Satan (a fact you keep avoiding). I stopped attending the lds temple in 1989, but I heard they finally changed that in 1990. Even further, as a missionary in Honduras (97% Catholic) we were told to tell people their Church was wrong and had no authority.

Hmmmmmm

Please clarify how a Catholic Priest was depicted as an agent of Satan. I have an idea, but I don’t fully understand what exactly you are referencing.

In regard to you being a missionary in Honduras, you discuss a doctrine that certainly differentiates Catholics from Mormons:

Verse 5
“We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof.”
lds.org/scriptures/pgp/a-of-f/1?lang=eng#
The link above also discloses other differences in our beliefs.

We believe that what is written in Matthew 21: 23-27 holds true to this day, that there are certainly baptisms “of men” and baptisms “from heaven.” There was reference to such in the early Church, and it is obvious there are differences now. We believe that in order to conduct a legitimate baptism (or other ordinances) “from heaven”, one must have the legitimate authority to do so. There is much written in the New and Old Testaments related to the authority of man vs. authority from God. LDS missionaries are typically not afraid to preach the belief that their Church is Christ’s Church, and the only church with the proper authority to baptize, etc.
lds.org/scriptures/nt/matt/21.25?lang=eng#24

You said you “were told” to tell the people of Honduras “their Church was wrong and had no authority”…but such testimony is always a choice by the LDS missionary.

This brings the reader, of course, to a dilemma. Does my church actually have the authority of God? Was I baptized of John’s baptism, or of man’s…or was I baptized—and if not, to whom shall I go to be baptized? In the midst of this war of words and tumult of opinions, what is to be done? Who of all these parties are right; or, are they all wrong together? If any one of them be right, which is it, and how shall I know it?
lds.org/scriptures/pgp/js-h/1.8,10?lang=eng

From what we read in the Bible, this is a legitimate and worthwhile question, and one that can only be answered by God—through the Holy Ghost—and through study, prayer and faith (which includes obedient living).
lds.org/scriptures/nt/john/14.26?lang=eng

 

[TexanKnight]

My friend, you are somehow mixing that men are the Priesthood. Understand that in our Church, although only men hold the Priesthood, they are not THE Priesthood. “Priesthood” leaders are males, but they call male and females to particular positions in the Church. Those they call have the opportunity to reject the call. Many do reject calls. But also, many don’t, and server wonderfully in the capacity by which they are called. They are unpaid ministers, and most admit that although they might have been leery about being called to the position in the beginning, they grew from serving.

Let me and Elder Ballard, a man who we presently revere as a Latter-Day Apostle of the Lord, help you understand the difference.

“In our Heavenly Father’s great priesthood-endowed plan, men have the unique responsibility to administer the priesthood, but they are not the priesthood. Men and women have different but equally valued roles. Just as a woman cannot conceive a child without a man, so a man cannot fully exercise the power of the priesthood to establish an eternal family without a woman. In other words, in the eternal perspective, both the procreative power and the priesthood power are shared by husband and wife. And as husband and wife, a man and a woman should strive to follow our Heavenly Father. The Christian virtues of love, humility, and patience should be their focus as they seek the blessings of the priesthood in their lives and for their family.”
lds.org/general-conference/2013/04/this-is-my-work-and-glory?lang=eng

So now that this has been clarified, you’re saying that because the leaders of the Relief Society are originally called and chosen by men, and they rise to the challenge by accepting the call and performing marvelous service leading 5–6 million women to serve one another, they no longer “count” as a woman’s organization?

you need to be more specific. When you say “men” you need to be sure and clarify that, until a very short time ago, it meant “white men”. Remember, the lds god was racist until it became a financial liability.

 

[mrgloop]

“Like nailing jello to the wall” is a very common idiom used to indicate that something is impossible. Jello’s popularity among Mormons has nothing to do with this very common idiom.

Don’t worry, I won’t read into that comment.

 

[TexanKnight]

Please clarify how a Catholic Priest was depicted as an agent of Satan. I have an idea, but I don’t fully understand what exactly you are referencing.

in the temple film, a man dressed like a Catholic priest was the agent of Satan.

In regard to you being a missionary in Honduras, you discuss a doctrine that certainly differentiates Catholics from Mormons:

Verse 5
“We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof.”
lds.org/scriptures/pgp/a-of-f/1?lang=eng#
The link above also discloses other differences in our beliefs.

um…I was an lds missionary. I was in the lds bishopric, I served in the lds EQ presidency. I know how it is done

We believe that what is written in Matthew 21: 23-27 holds true to this day, that there are certainly baptisms “of men” and baptisms “from heaven.” There was reference to such in the early Church, and it is obvious there are differences now. We believe that in order to conduct a legitimate baptism (or other ordinances) “from heaven”, one must have the legitimate authority to do so. There is much written in the New and Old Testaments related to the authority of man vs. authority from God. LDS missionaries are typically not afraid to preach the belief that their Church is Christ’s Church, and the only church with the proper authority to baptize, etc.
lds.org/scriptures/nt/matt/21.25?lang=eng#24

first, I know the teaching. Second, just because picks one out of 9 versions of a vision and then claims to have authority does not mean he has authority. The Catholic Church has authority unbroken from Peter.

You said you “were told” to tell the people of Honduras “their Church was wrong and had no authority”…but such testimony is always a choice by the LDS missionary.

No…the lds leaders TOLD us to say that. They TOLD us to tell Catholics their Church was wrong. They TOLD us to tell the the Catholic Church was the reason for their poverty. THAT was my point that you seemed to wander from

This brings the reader, of course, to a dilemma. Does my church actually have the authority of God? Was I baptized of John’s baptism, or of man’s…or was I baptized—and if not, to whom shall I go to be baptized? In the midst of this war of words and tumult of opinions, what is to be done? Who of all these parties are right; or, are they all wrong together? If any one of them be right, which is it, and how shall I know it?
lds.org/scriptures/pgp/js-h/1.8,10?lang=eng

easy…look at the people who claim it. You have an unbroken succession from Peter on the one hand, on the other hand, you have convicted con man in the 1800s claiming he has it. And when he has convinced people, he takes their wives, he has a bank scandal, he orders people to build him a house because “God ordered it”. Seems pretty clear to me.

From what we read in the Bible, this is a legitimate and worthwhile question, and one that can only be answered by God—through the Holy Ghost—and through study, prayer and faith (which includes obedient living).
lds.org/scriptures/nt/john/14.26?lang=eng

I prayed my way out of the lds church. Yes, prayer works