How do Mormons view Our Lady?

[twopekinguys]

I think that the Mormons who come to the forum are very surprised about the comments directed at the Mormon Church. Mormons don’t expect so much hostility from Catholics, especially since the two church work together so well in the outside world on value issues and charity work.

For example, your jello comment would be a slur against aspects of Mormon culture. Back in the day, Mormons would bring jello for a salad and usually this jello was lime flavoured. No reason to mock it.

Look at post 177 from a self identifying Mormon.

He doesn’t seem to find the comment offensive.

Pointing out the truth, whether you like it or not doesn’t automatically make it rude, hostile,mocking etc.

I also take back what I said earlier.

Welcome back Why Me. It’s been a while.

 

[twopekinguys]

“Like nailing jello to the wall” is a very common idiom used to indicate that something is impossible. Jello’s popularity among Mormons has nothing to do with this very common idiom.

Similar to “moving the goal posts”

 

[zaffiroborant]

Look at post 177 from a self identifying Mormon.

He doesn’t seem to find the comment offensive.

Pointing out the truth, whether you like it or not doesn’t automatically make it rude, hostile,mocking etc.

I also take back what I said earlier.

Welcome back Why Me. It’s been a while.

Just what I was thinking in his first 5 or 6 posts.

 

[TexanKnight]

Look at post 177 from a self identifying Mormon.

He doesn’t seem to find the comment offensive.

Pointing out the truth, whether you like it or not doesn’t automatically make it rude, hostile,mocking etc.

I also take back what I said earlier.

Welcome back Why Me. It’s been a while.

you sure? Why Me was a lot more offensive…but on the LDS board, he was even worse

 

[twopekinguys]

you sure? Why Me was a lot more offensive…but on the LDS board, he was even worse

He’s trying to fly under the radar.

That’s one of the reason he is dodging the religious affiliation questions.

The neat thing is, when people do this, their posting style eventually nails them to the wall so to speak.

Z did it, now why me.

 

[TexanKnight]

He’s trying to fly under the radar.

That’s one of the reason he is dodging the religious affiliation questions.

The neat thing is, when people do this, their posting style eventually nails them to the wall so to speak.

Z did it, now why me.

I went back and read more closely and you could be right. He was a piece of work…remember how he made claims about being Catholic but bashing the Catholic Church?

And on the LDS board, he was bragging how he was LDS…

 

[twopekinguys]

I went back and read more closely and you could be right. He was a piece of work…remember how he made claims about being Catholic but bashing the Catholic Church?

And on the LDS board, he was bragging how he was LDS…

Here, he used to list his religious affiliation as both lds and Catholic.

At least now we know who we are dealing with.

 

[Judas_Thaddeus]

Not intending to bump this thread, just bringing back the subject.

Let’s get back on track now about how Mormons view Our Lady.
Maybe many LDS followers who are not very well learned about
what their Church teaches would highly respect Mary, not going
to point out individuals specifically, but if one looks back earlier
in the thread, we find that Mormonism teaches that the Mormon
God had relations with his spirit daughter Mary, even though she
was already betrothed to Joseph, and it is taught that Mary might
have even become one of the many WIVES of the Mormon God.

Keeping in mind that the Mormon Father God has a body of flesh
and bone like Joseph Smith and many others said and still say,
and that Jesus “our eldest spirit brother” needed a body, AND is
said to be the LITERAL Son of God, according to the flesh.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Women are absolutely wonderful!

My original intention in posting information about the Relief Society was to rebut alleged statements that the Mormons view women as objects.

I quote RebeccaJ, a “Veteran Member”, Religion: Catholic, post #13:

“Women are objects in Mormonism, like a stapler, existing to perform a function. Stepping outside of that function is to go against the Mormon God.”

Apparently Rebecca believe or perceives that Mormons somehow suppress women, which I (and my wife), long time members, believe to be totally untrue. I testify that women are integral and held in tremendous esteem within the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.

…But, there has been some question regarding my claim that the Relief Society is the oldest and largest woman’s organization in the world. That is fair. I have provided some sources to back my statement. Can you provide sources related to the original startup date of these “orders”, as well as membership of those orders? I didn’t originally intend to debate this point, but you’ve now genuinely peaked my interest.

I was raised LDS, the message as a young LDS girl was, females exit and should keep themselves worthy in order to be a wife to a Mormon male so that they can progress to godhood. The function of a stapler is to hold pieces of paper together. The function of a woman, in Mormonism, is to provide human bodies for spirits that exist in a pre existence, in order for herself to progress to godhood, and to enable godhood for a husband and children. Women who seek higher education should do so for the purpose of these functions.

Your posts only provide evidence for what I said.

Further, you are ignoring the fact that all monetary decisions for
Mormon organizations are made by and/or approved by men. A woman, whether she is in a “leadership” position or not, will never make a decision for the RS or any other organization, without approval from men. The relief society is an auxiliary of the priesthood organization, under its direction and control. Therefore, not a women’s organization, but an auxiliary of a men’s organization.

 

[LivingWaters7]

Perhaps reading the LDS Church Handbook of Instructions would be helpful:

lds.org/handbook/handbook-2-administering-the-church/relief-society?lang=eng

Some relevant quotes:
**
The Relief Society is an auxiliary to the priesthood. All auxiliary organizations exist to help Church members grow in their testimonies of Heavenly Father, Jesus Christ, and the restored gospel. Through the work of the auxiliaries, members receive instruction, encouragement, and support as they strive to live according to gospel principles.**

**Purposes

Relief Society prepares women for the blessings of eternal life by helping them increase their faith and personal righteousness, strengthen families and homes, and help those in need. Relief Society accomplishes these purposes through Sunday gospel instruction, other Relief Society meetings, visiting teaching, and welfare and compassionate service.

9.2 Ward Relief Society Leadership

Bishopric

The bishop and his counselors provide priesthood leadership for the Relief Society.

The bishop calls and sets apart a sister to serve as Relief Society president. He oversees the calling and setting apart of counselors in the ward Relief Society presidency, the ward Relief Society secretary, and other sisters who serve in Relief Society callings. He may assign his counselors to call and set apart these sisters.

The bishop meets with the Relief Society president regularly to discuss Relief Society and welfare matters.
Ward Relief Society Presidency

The Relief Society presidency consists of a president and two counselors. They are spiritual leaders in the effort to strengthen sisters and their families. They work under the direction of the bishopric. They also receive orientation and ongoing support from the stake Relief Society presidency.
Ward Relief Society President

The Relief Society president has the following responsibilities:

She serves as a member of the ward council. As a member of this council, she participates in efforts to build faith and strengthen individuals and families (see chapter 4).

She meets regularly with the bishop to report on and discuss Relief Society and welfare matters.

At the bishop’s request, she visits homes of members to evaluate welfare needs and suggest ways to respond to them (see 9.6.1). In the absence of the Relief Society president, the bishop may assign a counselor in the Relief Society presidency to respond to an urgent need.

She submits recommendations to the bishopric for sisters to be called to serve as leaders and teachers and to fulfill other callings in the Relief Society. In making these recommendations, she follows the guidelines in 19.1.1 and 19.1.2.

She coordinates ward Relief Society welfare efforts during emergencies.

She teaches other Relief Society leaders and teachers their duties, using this handbook as a resource.

She oversees the records, reports, budget, and finances of the ward Relief Society. The Relief Society secretary helps with this responsibility.

9.4.2
Additional Relief Society Meetings

Planning the Meetings

Relief Society leaders prayerfully counsel together about the topics that will strengthen sisters and their families and about the best ways to teach those topics.

The Relief Society president ensures that plans for all Relief Society meetings are approved by the bishop. She also ensures that all plans are in accordance with the guidelines in chapter 13.

9.8 Stake Relief Society Leadership
9.8.1
Stake Presidency

The stake president oversees the Relief Society in the stake. He meets regularly (usually monthly) with the stake Relief Society president or presidency. He provides priesthood direction as they counsel together about matters that pertain to Relief Society sisters and their families. These matters may include welfare needs, the progress and needs of sisters in the stake, and Relief Society meetings, instruction, and activities.

9.8.2
Stake Relief Society Presidency

The responsibilities of stake auxiliary presidencies are outlined in 15.4.1. The stake Relief Society presidency also has the following responsibilities:

Under the direction of the stake presidency, they may plan and carry out one or two stake Relief Society meetings each year for all Relief Society sisters in the stake. These meetings may include service, classes, projects, conferences, and workshops. One of them may be held in conjunction with the general Relief Society meeting. The stake Relief Society presidency may form committees to help as needed.**

I think that gives everyone an idea about what some were talking about in this thread as far as the relationship between the priesthood holders/leaders and the Relief Society.

 

[mrgloop]

Here, he used to list his religious affiliation as both lds and Catholic.

At least now we know who we are dealing with.

Just so we are clear, I have no idea of who this “Why Me” person is.

TexanKnight’s posts seem to jump from one bit of common anti-Mormon literature to the next. If I keep going here, I am certain the discussion will lead to polygamy, etc. I sensed some bitterness, and alas, I appreciate TexanKnight’s transparency regarding his affiliation with the Mormon Church during the 80s. His comments related to this topic are also relevant, but possibly biased considering he left the LDS Church.

TexanKnight: your intent in posting on this topic and message board may be different than mine. I’m not here to ransack and pound your faith—or Catholic leadership—in an effort to discount your contribution to the topic.

In conclusion, I have made an effort to:

1. Ask a question regarding the vast arsenal of Mormon-related posts
2. Clarify misconceptions and provide answers of how we Mormons revere Mary (and women)
3. Provide a rebuttal and observation related to the Orson Pratt quote, as well as a thought that we best work together in helping each other, and others, come closer to Christ.

 

[zaffiroborant]

Women are absolutely wonderful!

My original intention in posting information about the Relief Society was to rebut alleged statements that the Mormons view women as objects.

I quote RebeccaJ, a “Veteran Member”, Religion: Catholic, post #13:

“Women are objects in Mormonism, like a stapler, existing to perform a function. Stepping outside of that function is to go against the Mormon God.”

Apparently Rebecca believe or perceives that Mormons somehow suppress women, which I (and my wife), long time members, believe to be totally untrue. I testify that women are integral and held in tremendous esteem within the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.

…But, there has been some question regarding my claim that the Relief Society is the oldest and largest woman’s organization in the world. That is fair. I have provided some sources to back my statement. Can you provide sources related to the original startup date of these “orders”, as well as membership of those orders? I didn’t originally intend to debate this point, but you’ve now genuinely peaked my interest.

Well you’d think it was obvious that there have been orders of nuns for many centuries. But here you go The Order of St. Clare was established in 1212 and approved by Pope Innocent IV in 1253. As I understand it The Carmelite Order of nuns was established in 1452 and founded by Pope Sixtus IV in 1476 and the Ursulines were found n 1535 and formally approved by Pope Paul III in 1544. The Ursulines were the first nuns in North America, arriving in Canada in 1639 and in what is now New Orleans in 1727. They established one of the first hospitals in New Orleans an treated slaves flying in the face of the social norms of the time. During the Revolutionary War they treated both the British and American casualties in the same hospital.

Even earlier than all of these examples we have HIldegard of Bingen who became a nun at age 18 in 1116. So yes there were orders of nuns established long before the RS was established. One might even think that those who were there at the formation of the RS dreamed about doing what the Catholic nuns had been doing all along.

As to the number of Catholic nuns these days, there are currently about 710,000 nuns in the various orders these days. It may seem paltry when compared to your stated 6 million members of the RS. But then again if the Catholic church made all women 18 years or older automatically members of some Catholic women’s organization it would have about 333 million members.

The Boston Globe had an article about the contributions of Catholic nuns to American life here is some of what it had to say:
The Boston Globe:

The first nuns in America arrived in New Orleans in 1727 from France. Within three months, they had opened a boarding school for girls; some consider them the country’s first professional elementary school teachers. As waves of immigration made a chiefly Protestant nation more Catholic, nuns spread accordingly. Nuns, many immigrants themselves, served as a kind of de facto social service agency for America’s great waves of newcomers, administering settlement houses, orphanages, and schools that served the poor.

In the decades that followed, American nuns built schools wherever they went, eventually staffing the largest parochial school system in the world. They were also leaders in higher education: By the 1950s, before coeducation began to transform American colleges, more American women were getting degrees from Catholic women’s colleges than from Protestant or nondenominational institutions.

Health care in America bears the fingerprints of nuns as well. During the Civil War, sister-nurses tended to wounded soldiers in both the North and the South, and were often sought out by officers for their expertise. “Of all the forms of charity and benevolence seen in the crowded wards of the hospitals,” one Treasury Department official later recalled, “those of the Catholic sisters were among the most efficient.” Between 1866 and 1926, almost 500 hospitals began operating under Catholic sisters, who also ran scores of nursing schools that helped professionalize the field. As historian Margaret M. McGuinness points out in her forthcoming book “Called to Serve: A History of Nuns in America,” although bishops often received public credit for building churches, schools, and hospitals, they simply couldn’t have operated without nuns.

While I don’t mean to be snarky here, it seems that your huge RS membership making dinners for stressed members doesn’t really stack up to the Catholic sisters who built schools and hospitals.

 

[zaffiroborant]

Mrgloop, I have already stated what Rebecca and LivingWaters7 say in the preceding posts. LivingWater7’s post shows quite starkly by quoting extensively from actual LDS documents just how limited women are in their role in the RS. You can assert that the RS is women’s organization all you want but it’s quite obvious it is not. Like I said it is an organization for women run by men, exactly like a Cub Scout troop is an organization for little boys run by adults. The Relief Society IS NOT A WOMEN’S ORGANIZATION period!!!.

 

[zaffiroborant]

Just so we are clear, I have no idea of who this “Why Me” person is.

TexanKnight’s posts seem to jump from one bit of common anti-Mormon literature to the next. If I keep going here, I am certain the discussion will lead to polygamy, etc. I sensed some bitterness, and alas, I appreciate TexanKnight’s transparency regarding his affiliation with the Mormon Church during the 80s. His comments related to this topic are also relevant, but possibly biased considering he left the LDS Church.

TexanKnight: your intent in posting on this topic and message board may be different than mine. I’m not here to ransack and pound your faith—or Catholic leadership—in an effort to discount your contribution to the topic.

In conclusion, I have made an effort to:

1. Ask a question regarding the vast arsenal of Mormon-related posts
2. Clarify misconceptions and provide answers of how we Mormons revere Mary (and women)
3. Provide a rebuttal and observation related to the Orson Pratt quote, as well as a thought that we best work together in helping each other, and others, come closer to Christ.

Why me has nothing to do with you.

 

[zaffiroborant]

I find it interesting that earlier today I said I couldn’t believe the RS was a women’s organization because it was men who called all the shots. After this Mrgoop asked for more information about Catholic women’s organizations. Then tonight Rebeca and LivingWater7 reiterated that RS is not a women’s organization because men make all the decisions for it and I provided info on just what Catholic women have accomplished though their organizations. Mrgloop has been active on this site through out all of these posts (we all light up when onsite) and yet he doesn’t respond. Why is that? Come on defend that RS is an actual women’s organization, put their accomplishments up against those of the Catholic nuns. Or is there a reason you avoid what Rebeca, LivingWater7 and I have posted?

 

[mrgloop]

Well you’d think it was obvious that there have been orders of nuns for many centuries. But here you go The Order of St. Clare was established in 1212 and approved by Pope Innocent IV in 1253. As I understand it The Carmelite Order of nuns was established in 1452 and founded by Pope Sixtus IV in 1476 and the Ursulines were found n 1535 and formally approved by Pope Paul III in 1544. The Ursulines were the first nuns in North America, arriving in Canada in 1639 and in what is now New Orleans in 1727. They established one of the first hospitals in New Orleans an treated slaves flying in the face of the social norms of the time. During the Revolutionary War they treated both the British and American casualties in the same hospital.

Even earlier than all of these examples we have HIldegard of Bingen who became a nun at age 18 in 1116. So yes there were orders of nuns established long before the RS was established. One might even think that those who were there at the formation of the RS dreamed about doing what the Catholic nuns had been doing all along.

As to the number of Catholic nuns these days, there are currently about 710,000 nuns in the various orders these days. It may seem paltry when compared to your stated 6 million members of the RS. But then again if the Catholic church made all women 18 years or older automatically members of some Catholic women’s organization it would have about 333 million members.

The Boston Globe had an article about the contributions of Catholic nuns to American life here is some of what it had to say:

While I don’t mean to be snarky here, it seems that your huge RS membership making dinners for stressed members doesn’t really stack up to the Catholic sisters who built schools and hospitals.

Wow. So many of you are in attack mode!

I related personal information about how the Relief Society affected me, just two days ago, in an effort to reveal some of the most recent kindness by women of my faith, and how they are not only “staplers.”

I do appreciate, however, that instead of finding fault with my comments, you are among the first to actually reveal information about the Catholic Church! That is a step in the right direction! Data and reliable sources always help to back up statements on these blogs

I suppose if we dig a little deeper, and if we find what Catholic “woman organizations” are still surviving—and they meet the present community’s perceived and recently fabricated parameters of what an established women’s organizations ought to be, in that it can’t be under the direction of any male figure—and the numerical membership of these organizations, we could provide evidence in the contrary to my original statement regarding the Relief Society. Dig in, I say, dig in!

But alas, my original intent was to not create a contest between the women of your faith and the women of mine…nor was I trying to create a contest on what type of service is “real service”, and what type of service is “weak sauce” service.

But so you know, we—meaning all members of the LDS Church—which includes the Relief Society in each geographic location, love to serve. Here is a link that discusses some of this service.
mormon.org/values/humanitarian-aid

I’m certain I could pull up all kinds of information how women of my church assisted in projects more than dinners and visits, and how they too have helped build hospitals and schools, but this really isn’t a contest, and is actually quite off topic.

 

[invisible_man]

Wow. So many of you are in attack mode!

.

Once a person identifies their religious affiliation, it then becomes an attack on that person eventually, especially if one is not Catholic. I am also being attacked now for not claiming my religion. One should not feel pressured about getting more personal on a board. You are defending your faith and this is where human nature kicks in. People want to defend what they love.

 

[mrgloop]

I was raised LDS, the message as a young LDS girl was, females exit

**What do you mean by “females exit”?
**

and should keep themselves worthy

**What is wrong with this teaching?
**

in order to be a wife to a Mormon male

Do you believe that interfaith marriages are better than same faith marriages? nytimes.com/2013/04/06/opinion/interfaith-marriages-a-mixed-blessing.html

so that they can progress to godhood.

**So then what do we progress to, according to Catholic belief?
**

The function of a stapler is to hold pieces of paper together. The function of a woman, in Mormonism, is to provide human bodies for spirits that exist in a pre existence, in order for herself to progress to godhood, and to enable godhood for a husband and children. Women who seek higher education should do so for the purpose of these functions.

That appears to be your jaded, glass-half-empty opinion. Here is my verifiable, sourced data
lds.org/topics/family-proclamation
and a talk from Ezra T. Benson, a past prophet who spoke on the divine role of womanhood
lds.org/general-conference/1981/10/the-honored-place-of-woman?lang=eng

Your posts only provide evidence for what I said.

**No, my links provide an unjaded point of view, direct from LDS Church websites.
**

Further, you are ignoring the fact that all monetary decisions for
Mormon organizations are made by and/or approved by men. A woman, whether she is in a “leadership” position or not, will never make a decision for the RS or any other organization, without approval from men.

You apparently haven’t read my earlier post wherein Elder Ballard clarifies that men are not the Priesthood. I ought to clarify that no one can make monetary decisions, not even Priesthood holders who happen to be men, without the approval of those in Priesthood leadership positions. There is great respect for those Priesthood Leadership positions, and there are simultaneously great penalties when those who have such control abuse those leadership responsibilities, particularly mishandling of Church funds…and rightly so.

The relief society is an auxiliary of the priesthood organization, under its direction and control. Therefore, not a women’s organization, but an auxiliary of a men’s organization.

**Call it what you want, but I view it differently.

Now that you are an adult and no longer a girl, you really ought to go to an LDS Church and attend a Relief Society meeting on a Sunday. Visitors are welcome. You’ll see the room is full of adult women, an occasional baby, and possibly an individual who holds the Priesthood, who happens to be a man, a Priesthood leader. Then, during the week, you can attend the Relief Society meeting where these same women make quilts, serve the homeless, create humanitarian aid, learn about gardening/cooking, or whatever else the leadership of the Relief Society deem appropriate. Then, you can accompany a sister who has a list of other sisters that she visits on a monthly basis to make sure all is well in their home, and provide whatever assistance is asked for, or whatever assistance she deems necessary. And then you can accompany her as she calls her Relief Society President to report who needs physical/emotional/spiritual assistance, and who does not…and then maybe you can continue to report to me that all this still does not qualify as a woman’s organization.**

 

[invisible_man]

This thread should be about the Virgin Mary and the LDS conception of her. It has been side whacked into something else. From what I know the LDS respect the Virgin Mary. They are not going around bashing her or being derogatory toward her.

 

[mrgloop]

Mrgloop, I have already stated what Rebecca and LivingWaters7 say in the preceding posts. LivingWater7’s post shows quite starkly by quoting extensively from actual LDS documents just how limited women are in their role in the RS. You can assert that the RS is women’s organization all you want but it’s quite obvious it is not. Like I said it is an organization for women run by men, exactly like a Cub Scout troop is an organization for little boys run by adults. The Relief Society IS NOT A WOMEN’S ORGANIZATION period!!!.

Well then, provide some Catholic Answers. I’ve provided plenty—plenty, of Mormon ones.