how do non catholic christians justify thier faith?

[ChristIsLord]

let me explain, i’ve come to the conclusion that i simply can’t accept several teachings of the catholic church as being a true teaching and will be removing myself from the church as difficult as it is to do.

however how do i turn to a non-catholic church when it’s obvious they are basically a child of the catholic church? how would christs’s church be apostate for nearly 1,500 years until luther came along? to me if the historic christian churches, catholic and orthodox are apostate churches wrought with pagan influences, then all of christendom falls like a house of cards. how can you justify your church? thanks

 

[JonNC]

let me explain, i’ve come to the conclusion that i simply can’t accept several teachings of the catholic church as being a true teaching and will be removing myself from the church as difficult as it is to do.

however how do i turn to a non-catholic church when it’s obvious they are basically a child of the catholic church? how would christs’s church be apostate for nearly 1,500 years until luther came along? to me if the historic christian churches, catholic and orthodox are apostate churches wrought with pagan influences, then all of christendom falls like a house of cards. how can you justify your church? thanks

It might help to know what your issues are with the CC.
Even to me as a Lutheran, the bolded part is way overstated.

To answer your question, my first recommendation to you is to explore every last avenue to answer your concerns about your Church before you explore others. Perhaps you have done so, perhaps not. Seek out your priest, or another if you lack confidence in him.

We are separated children of the CC, but were you to look to the Lutheran Church, I would recommend you check out the Lutheran Confessions, mainly the Augsburg Confession, it apology, and Luther’s Small Catechism. They justify what we believe far better than I could.

bookofconcord.org/

Jon

 

[hays1122]

let me explain, i’ve come to the conclusion that i simply can’t accept several teachings of the catholic church as being a true teaching and will be removing myself from the church as difficult as it is to do.

however how do i turn to a non-catholic church when it’s obvious they are basically a child of the catholic church? how would christs’s church be apostate for nearly 1,500 years until luther came along? to me if the historic christian churches, catholic and orthodox are apostate churches wrought with pagan influences, then all of christendom falls like a house of cards. how can you justify your church? thanks

Why not be more specific about which teachings you can’t accept.
And how long were you in the church before you came to this conclusion?
Have you studied church history,
about all the popes through the years,
and about why the church teaches what it does teach?
I’ve been reading about the history of the different denominations.
And so far I have found that the only one I can trust is Jesus and His holy word.
Churches are man made congregations.
The catholic church makes claims that I haven’t found to be true. And you just have to read the threads in this website for yourself to learn what I mean by that.
And I am not putting down the Catholic church.
Other denominations also have their contradictions and man made ideas.
I’m clinging to Jesus and His word.
After all He is the one who died for my sins.
Jesus is the one who is God the Father,the Son and the Holy Spirit all in one.
He is the one who said,“I am the way the truth and the Life,no one comes to the father but by me.”

 

[SIA]

let me explain, i’ve come to the conclusion that i simply can’t accept several teachings of the catholic church as being a true teaching and will be removing myself from the church as difficult as it is to do.

however how do i turn to a non-catholic church when it’s obvious they are basically a child of the catholic church? how would christs’s church be apostate for nearly 1,500 years until luther came along? to me if the historic christian churches, catholic and orthodox are apostate churches wrought with pagan influences, then all of christendom falls like a house of cards. how can you justify your church? thanks

It has to do with finding and coming to know Christ wherever it is you go to church. The truth is the same no matter what. Jesus doesn’t change. He said that his Word stands forever. C.S. Lewis once said, “When the end is here, it doesn’t matter what you did, it’s only about who you are with.” Real Christianity comes right down to trusting and having faith in the ONLY one who saves and can save, Jesus Christ. May your journey out of the Roman Catholic church and into a better place where you can come to meet God and begin to know him and his love be as rewarding and as fulfilling as mine was a few years ago.

 

[wanner47]

let me explain, i’ve come to the conclusion that i simply can’t accept several teachings of the catholic church as being a true teaching and will be removing myself from the church as difficult as it is to do.

however how do i turn to a non-catholic church when it’s obvious they are basically a child of the catholic church? how would christs’s church be apostate for nearly 1,500 years until luther came along? to me if the historic christian churches, catholic and orthodox are apostate churches wrought with pagan influences, then all of christendom falls like a house of cards. how can you justify your church? thanks

So is it your contention that there are no Christian churches that contain the fullness of Truth? I just want to make sure I understand what you’re saying.

 

[believers]

let me explain, i’ve come to the conclusion that i simply can’t accept several teachings of the catholic church as being a true teaching and will be removing myself from the church as difficult as it is to do.

however how do i turn to a non-catholic church when it’s obvious they are basically a child of the catholic church? how would christs’s church be apostate for nearly 1,500 years until luther came along? to me if the historic christian churches, catholic and orthodox are apostate churches wrought with pagan influences, then all of christendom falls like a house of cards. how can you justify your church? thanks

Jhn 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Jhn 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

A Christian is born again at the time he/she repents (“a change of one’s mind toward God and an abhorrence to sin”) and believes the Gospel of Jesus Christ (Mark 1:15). This person is baptized with the Holy Spirit and with the Holy fire of God (Mat 3:11) (Which is why you see many born again believers with much zeal myself included)

We are now crucified with Christ, nevertheless we live, not I, but Christ living in me and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. (Gal 2:20). We know that we MUST now live our lives according to the Gospel of Jesus Christ and appear blameless when we appear before Him (1Thessalonians 5:23). Sanctified by the Word of God (John 17:17). We are servants given authority until our Master returns (Mar 13:34). Preaching the Gospel as faithful servants. (Mar 16:15)

When we were born again… Jesus forgave us of ALL of our sins. We remember that we were purged from our sins (2 Peter 1:9). We are a new creature in Christ. (2 Corinthians 5:17) We turn away from sin and live our life ACCORDING to the Gospel of Jesus Christ. This is a very narrow path we live. But we know that the Word of God is a lamp unto our feet (Psa 119:105). If we happen to transgress, we confess our sin unto the Lord (Psa 32:5)

Our great commandment is to love God with ALL of our heart, soul, mind and strength (Mark 12:30) and love one another.

You will know other believers by their fruit (Mat 7:20). Walking in love (Eph 5:2), forgiving always (Eph 4:32, Col 3:13), loving our enemies, blessing them that curse us (Mat 5:44).

 

[ChristIsLord]

in short, my issues with the catholic church, i don’t want to turn this into an apologetics debate as i’ve been going through these issues for years and tried everything to justify my catholic faith, read endless apologetics, listened all the apologists on ewtn and ca etc… my family is very catholic, i like the church, enjoy mass as a family, i’m irish so leaving catholicism isn’t easily done. i have nothing “personal” against the church.

1. papal infallibility, i believe this has been shown historically to be false, by past statements made by popes in councils that were later contradicted by other popes. not to get too detailed but the statements that unless one is under the pope of rome he is damned and unless one is a member of the catholic church they cannot be saved. these were stated in clear english centuries ago, now of course the opposite is said to be true. also the idea is just silly to me.
2. kneeling and bowing before statues, praying before them and lighting candles. i see no way this can be justified, i had an entire thread on it.
3. indulgences, in short essentially a money making venture by the church and nothing more. total nonsense that we can do things in a prescribed way to get out of purgatory early for good behavior. and in the middle ages we could pay our way out, indulgences were sold all day long right in front of st. peter’s so it’s tough to imagine the pope not knowing what was going on.
4. mary’s role, it’s too much, too much assumption… like… the assumption! there’s basically nothing on this until the 5th century. it’s hard to believe such a miracle would never be written about until 400 years later. and the latest co-redemptrix and mediatrix of all graces is out there. how the church thinks they know that mary mediates all graces from god is beyond me, but that’s the breaking point for me, totally unbiblical.
5. the real presence, try as i might but i haven’t gained any faith this is true, i’ve prayed and prayed but can’t honestly say i believe it.
6. hate to beat a dead horse but yes the pedophilia scandle. it was so widespread for nearly 40 years and during that time we didn’t see one, not one bishop stand up and do the right thing. i can’t trust these men as my spiritual leaders if they lack the integrity to stop a child rapist from practicing his perversions. i mean that one seems pretty simple to me. yet time and time again bishop after bishop simply moved him around to protect some false facade of the churches good name instead of children. how do i know trust them as my shepherds? i can’t.

now the cunnundrum, without the historical christian churches, the rest of christianity can’t stand. it was the catholic church that cannonized the bible, the catholic church that fought off many different heresies, the catholic church that made the trinity doctrine at the dreaded “council of nicea” lead by the dreaded “constantine”. modern day christianity is a branch off of catholicism, if the trunk is rotten, the branch can’t bear good fruit. i don’t see how these denominations can justify themselves.

so alas i’m left with nowhere to hang my hat yet again, it’s frustrating and it’s probably just me. i’m a very black and white thinker, either something is what it says it is or it isn’t.

 

[wanner47]

CiL, do you believe that the Gates of Hell have prevailed against the Church?

 

[SteveGC]

Ok…so you can’t reconcile with many of the doctrines of the faith.

I’m not surprised at all.

Because if you look at each one of those doctrines by themselves and try to use your reasoning to understand them, it is extremely difficult. If you try to research their veracity in the bible, relying on a prayer to the Holy Spirit to reveal all truths to you, it does not work. This doesn’t mean that these doctrine are untrue. Nor does it undermine the power of the Holy Spirit. This identifies that it was never God’s will that the Holy Spirit would be utilized as a “personal interpreter” for the bible. Anyone who claims it to be so, is fooling themselves, at their own peril. The Holy Spirit guides us into understanding in cooperation with our genuine seeking and prayer…and it’s power is manifested throughout our lives, revealing aspects of the faith to us as God wills it, sometimes through reading the bible, often in other aspects of our lives. But the Holy Spirit is first and foremost unified to Christ’s Church (Catholic Church).

That is why we must trust the Church for all understanding…precisely because the Holy Spirit primarily works through her. Sure, He (the Holy Spirit) works through individuals as well. Not just Catholics. His omnipotence certainly allows work to be done in every realm. But again, His primary channel of work is accomplished in unity with The Church.

Many non-Catholics will feed you lines about the fact that if you just “follow Jesus”, that’s all you need. “Not some church”, they’ll say. The problem with that is that “following Jesus” is not a clear path. Of course, it is the only path. He indeed IS the WAY (and the TRUTH and the LIFE). But the path is illuminated by the permanent, unchanging teachings of Jesus Christ…in more practical terms, by the doctrines of the faith preserved for all time and guarded for all time by the Holy Spirit. Doctrines are the lamp posts which illuminate the narrow path of Christ.

So, why is following Jesus not a clear path without a preserved, consistent, unchanging teaching? The evidence is ALL AROUND YOU. Remind yourself as you look at all the posts on CAF here about private interpretation of the bible, about statements and proclamations regarding faith and morals without any source of authority. That’s the non-Catholic “way”, a sparsely lit source of partial truths, which illuminate the true path only on occasion, and on other occasions will attempt to shine light on alternate paths (no baptism, OSAS, etc.) which lead to nowhere.

All advice you get from non-Catholics about how to follow Jesus is questionable at best, and should be challenged continuously. Why…because a particular one is not true? Perhaps. But more importantly, because (and this is important)…because the body of “truths” from the non-Catholic community is INCONSISTENT, EVER-CHANGING, NON-PERMANENT. Exactly what we DON’T need as Christians to try to illuminate our path.

You can’t find the true path that way because you don’t know who to listen to. Far too many of them disagree. And who are “they” anyway? By what authority do they transmit the truth to you? Think about that the next time you’re listening to someone explain the “truth” to you. By what authority??

To that they’ll say, “The Holy Spirit, guiding me through my bible”.

Doesn’t work that way. See my explanation above. If it worked that way, there’d be NO DISAGREEMENTS. But there are. And sure, not all Catholics agree on EVERYTHING either. Most of us do, but not all. But listen, when it comes to doctrine…to official teachings on faith and morals…to the essential illuminating facts which guide you into all understanding through Christ…faithful Catholics do NOT disagree. That’s because on those matters, The Church DOES NOT WAIVER. Never has…never will. It can’t, you see. Christ promised that the gates of hell would never prevail against Her.

So, as to your OP…“how do non Catholic Christians justify their faith?” If by justify, you mean, to show evidence of unwaivering truths…the answer is “THEY CANNOT…EVER”.

God Bless.

 

[reteeks21]

Ok…so you can’t reconcile with many of the doctrines of the faith.

I’m not surprised at all.

Because if you look at each one of those doctrines by themselves and try to use your reasoning to understand them, it is extremely difficult. If you try to research their veracity in the bible, relying on a prayer to the Holy Spirit to reveal all truths to you, it does not work. This doesn’t mean that these doctrine are untrue. Nor does it undermine the power of the Holy Spirit. This identifies that it was never God’s will that the Holy Spirit would be utilized as a “personal interpreter” for the bible. Anyone who claims it to be so, is fooling themselves, at their own peril. The Holy Spirit guides us into understanding in cooperation with our genuine seeking and prayer…and it’s power is manifested throughout our lives, revealing aspects of the faith to us as God wills it, sometimes through reading the bible, often in other aspects of our lives. But the Holy Spirit is first and foremost unified to Christ’s Church (Catholic Church).

That is why we must trust the Church for all understanding…precisely because the Holy Spirit primarily works through her. Sure, He (the Holy Spirit) works through individuals as well. Not just Catholics. His omnipotence certainly allows work to be done in every realm. But again, His primary channel of work is accomplished in unity with The Church.

Many non-Catholics will feed you lines about the fact that if you just “follow Jesus”, that’s all you need. “Not some church”, they’ll say. The problem with that is that “following Jesus” is not a clear path. Of course, it is the only path. He indeed IS the WAY (and the TRUTH and the LIFE). But the path is illuminated by the permanent, unchanging teachings of Jesus Christ…in more practical terms, by the doctrines of the faith preserved for all time and guarded for all time by the Holy Spirit. Doctrines are the lamp posts which illuminate the narrow path of Christ.

So, why is following Jesus not a clear path without a preserved, consistent, unchanging teaching? The evidence is ALL AROUND YOU. Remind yourself as you look at all the posts on CAF here about private interpretation of the bible, about statements and proclamations regarding faith and morals without any source of authority. That’s the non-Catholic “way”, a sparsely lit source of partial truths, which illuminate the true path only on occasion, and on other occasions will attempt to shine light on alternate paths (no baptism, OSAS, etc.) which lead to nowhere.

All advice you get from non-Catholics about how to follow Jesus is questionable at best, and should be challenged continuously. Why…because a particular one is not true? Perhaps. But more importantly, because (and this is important)…because the body of “truths” from the non-Catholic community is INCONSISTENT, EVER-CHANGING, NON-PERMANENT. Exactly what we DON’T need as Christians to try to illuminate our path.

You can’t find the true path that way because you don’t know who to listen to. Far too many of them disagree. And who are “they” anyway? By what authority do they transmit the truth to you? Think about that the next time you’re listening to someone explain the “truth” to you. By what authority??

To that they’ll say, “The Holy Spirit, guiding me through my bible”.

Doesn’t work that way. See my explanation above. If it worked that way, there’d be NO DISAGREEMENTS. But there are. And sure, not all Catholics agree on EVERYTHING either. Most of us do, but not all. But listen, when it comes to doctrine…to official teachings on faith and morals…to the essential illuminating facts which guide you into all understanding through Christ…faithful Catholics do NOT disagree. That’s because on those matters, The Church DOES NOT WAIVER. Never has…never will. It can’t, you see. Christ promised that the gates of hell would never prevail against Her.

So, as to your OP…“how do non Catholic Christians justify their faith?” If by justify, you mean, to show evidence of unwaivering truths…the answer is “THEY CANNOT…EVER”.

God Bless.

So, would it be fair to say they aren’t even Christians to begin with?

 

[fireforgedxtian]

now the cunnundrum, without the historical christian churches, the rest of christianity can’t stand. it was the catholic church that cannonized the bible, the catholic church that fought off many different heresies, the catholic church that made the trinity doctrine at the dreaded “council of nicea” lead by the dreaded “constantine”. modern day christianity is a branch off of catholicism, if the trunk is rotten, the branch can’t bear good fruit. i don’t see how these denominations can justify themselves.

Depending on how you’re using the phrase “catholic church,” this is not entirely accurate. If you’re using it in terms of the Universal Church, then yes - you’re right, and you’re basically left with a few protestant sects that view themselves as the restoration of early Christianity.

If, however, you’re using the phrase in terms of the Roman branch, then your following statement is not accurate at all. I would recommend that you investigate Eastern Orthodoxy, Anglicanism (sorry if you bear the stereotypical Irish hatred of all things English), or the Union of Utrecht.

 

[SteveGC]

So, would it be fair to say they aren’t even Christians to begin with?

No, not fair at all. But baptism is a prerequisite. And the baptized who follow Christ (believe and obey) are identified as Christian. However, Christians outside the Catholic Church exist in a realm of Christianity which is incomplete, often distorted and filled with partial truths.

Christians are called to be unified sacramentally to Christ’s One True Church, which provides for them the fullness of The Truth (which is Christ Himself).

 

[reteeks21]

No, not fair at all. But baptism is a prerequisite. And the baptized who follow Christ (believe and obey) are identified as Christian. However, Christians outside the Catholic Church exist in a realm of Christianity which is incomplete, often distorted and filled with partial truths.

Christians are called to be unified sacramentally to Christ’s One True Church, which provides for them the fullness of The Truth (which is Christ Himself).

No objections from me.

 

[SteveGC]

So, would it be fair to say they aren’t even Christians to begin with?

No, not fair at all. But baptism is a prerequisite. And the baptized who follow Christ (believe and obey) are identified as Christian. However, Christians outside the Catholic Church exist in a realm of Christianity which is incomplete, often distorted and filled with partial truths.

Christians are called to be unified sacramentally to Christ’s One True Church, which provides for them the fullness of The Truth (which is Christ Himself).

of course, it could also be argued that baptism is not a prerequisite for being identified as Christian, and I suppose I would entertain that notion, although I don’t fundamentally agree, but that’s for another thread.

 

[adrift]

1. papal infallibility, i believe this has been shown historically to be false, by past statements made by popes in councils that were later contradicted by other popes. not to get too detailed but the statements that unless one is under the pope of rome he is damned and unless one is a member of the catholic church they cannot be saved. these were stated in clear english centuries ago, now of course the opposite is said to be true. also the idea is just silly to me.

What you believe is false. You are misquoting what was said. In clear English, you got to be kidding they did not speak English nor write in it. Latin is the official language of the Church.

1. kneeling and bowing before statues, praying before them and lighting candles. i see no way this can be justified, i had an entire thread on it.

Many answered you in that thread to show you how you are misquoting. You see no way yet you do not answer what has been pointed out to you as your false understanding.

1. indulgences, in short essentially a money making venture by the church and nothing more. total nonsense that we can do things in a prescribed way to get out of purgatory early for good behavior. and in the middle ages we could pay our way out, indulgences were sold all day long right in front of st. peter’s so it’s tough to imagine the pope not knowing what was going on.

This is totally false. Never were indulgences sold this was the propaganda of Protestants. You need to look at history through Catholic eyes not Protestant.

1. mary’s role, it’s too much, too much assumption… like… the assumption! there’s basically nothing on this until the 5th century. it’s hard to believe such a miracle would never be written about until 400 years later. and the latest co-redemptrix and mediatrix of all graces is out there. how the church thinks they know that mary mediates all graces from god is beyond me, but that’s the breaking point for me, totally unbiblical.

Perhaps you would be interested in another view

1. the real presence, try as i might but i haven’t gained any faith this is true, i’ve prayed and prayed but can’t honestly say i believe it.

It is to bad that you cannot accept this great gift from Jesus. You are not alone in not being able to accept it. Many left Jesus because they could not accept it.

1. hate to beat a dead horse but yes the pedophilia scandle. it was so widespread for nearly 40 years and during that time we didn’t see one, not one bishop stand up and do the right thing. i can’t trust these men as my spiritual leaders if they lack the integrity to stop a child rapist from practicing his perversions. i mean that one seems pretty simple to me. yet time and time again bishop after bishop simply moved him around to protect some false facade of the churches good name instead of children. how do i know trust them as my shepherds? i can’t.

This was not wide spread. It was a sad happening even if it occurred only once. The Bishops were relying on current psychology. Priest would be sent for counseling and than given a clean bill of health. The Bishops relied to their determent on these experts. Current thought says that such people cannot be curred but it is unfair to say what you wrote based on what is current today.

in short, my issues with the catholic church, i don’t want to turn this into an apologetics debate as i’ve been going through these issues for years and tried everything to justify my catholic faith, read endless apologetics, listened all the apologists on ewtn and ca etc… my family is very catholic, i like the church, enjoy mass as a family, i’m irish so leaving catholicism isn’t easily done. i have nothing “personal” against the church.

It is hard to believe that you have done as much investigating as you say and then post what seems a Protestant argument without any trace of Catholicism. Most of what you write is ignorant. I guess Bishop Sheen was right.

 

[SIA]

What you believe is false. You are misquoting what was said. In clear English, you got to be kidding they did not speak English nor write in it. Latin is the official language of the Church.

Many answered you in that thread to show you how you are misquoting. You see no way yet you do not answer what has been pointed out to you as your false understanding.

This is totally false. Never were indulgences sold this was the propaganda of Protestants. You need to look at history through Catholic eyes not Protestant. It is not false. The Catholic church WAS abusing the whole notion of indulgences in the early 16th century especially for the building up of St. Peter’s Basilica

Perhaps you would be interested in another view

It is to bad that you cannot accept this great gift from Jesus. You are not alone in not being able to accept it. Many left Jesus because they could not accept it.
**It makes me laugh to hear Catholics talking about not accepting Christ when it is they who will not accept who he is and what he did for us. **

This was not wide spread. It was a sad happening even if it occurred only once. The Bishops were relying on current psychology. Priest would be sent for counseling and than given a clean bill of health. The Bishops relied to their determent on these experts. Current thought says that such people cannot be curred but it is unfair to say what you wrote based on what is current today.

It is hard to believe that you have done as much investigating as you say and then post what seems a Protestant argument without any trace of Catholicism. Most of what you write is ignorant. I guess Bishop Sheen was right.

Dismissing what you cannot cover up or make excuses for is considered just merely ignorance on the part of Protestants. That’s one of the oldest schemes in the book.

 

[hays1122]

The Holy Spirit does reveal God’s truth to us.
I can’t believe that anyone can say that the Holy Spirit “does not work that way”.
Don’t you believe that the pope gets his inspiration from the holy spirit?
The Holy spirit is not only for the pope and priests or pastors.
The Holy spirit is for anyone seeking God’s truth.
In John 16:13,
"We see the Spirit of Truth as our guide:
“Howbeit when He, the Spirit of truth, is come, He will guide you into all truth: for He shall not speak of Himself; but whatsoever He shall hear, that shall He speak: and He will shew you things to come.”
In John 14:26,
"We learn that the Holy Spirit is our Counselor and teacher:
“But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in My name, He shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.”
In 1 Corinthians 3:16,
we see that the Holy Spirit lives inside us:
“Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?”
In Romans 8:14,
we understand where our direction comes from:
“For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.”
In Romans 8:26,
we learn that the Holy Spirit is there for us in times of weakness and prayer:
“Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.”
THIS IS HOW THE HOLY SPIRIT WORKS.
Read your bible and find out for yourself.

 

[SteveGC]

The Holy Spirit does reveal God truth to us.
I can’t believe that anyone can say that the Holy Spirit “does not work that way”.
Don’t you believe that the pope gets his inspiration from the holy spirit?
The Holy spirit is not only for the pope and priests or pastors.
The Holy spirit is for anyone seeking God’s truth.
In John 16:13, "We see the Spirit of Truth as our guide: “Howbeit when He, the Spirit of truth, is come, He will guide you into all truth: for He shall not speak of Himself; but whatsoever He shall hear, that shall He speak: and He will shew you things to come.”
In John 14:26, "We learn that the Holy Spirit is our Counselor and teacher: “But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in My name, He shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.”
In 1 Corinthians 3:16, we see that the Holy Spirit lives inside us: “Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?”
In Romans 8:14, we understand where our direction comes from: “For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.”
In Romans 8:26, we learn that the Holy Spirit is there for us in times of weakness and prayer: “Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.”
THIS IS HOW THE HOLY SPIRIT WORKS.
Read your bible and find out for yourself.

I guess you didn’t really read my post carefully. I never claimed that the Holy Spirit doesn’t do ALL those things for the faithful. Not once did I say that.

So, what did I say?

I said, The Holy Spirit is not a personal, private interpreter of your Bible. If He was, then He would allow me to discern exactly the same significant salvific requirements that you have also discerned. But He did not do that. Now, as I prayerfully read my Bible, He is definitely a specialist in application, in encouragement and exhortation in following the teachings of Christ in a way that suits the state of my life, but He does not discern for me through some sort of interpretation exactly what those teachings ARE.

I really would think that should be obvious. Again, if that were true, then you and I would agree on all the fundamental necessities to ensure our eternal life. We don’t agree. What does that tell you? That I’m wrong?? Why am I wrong? I genuinely and fervently pray to the Holy Spirit when I open my Bible…just as I assume you do? Then why do we not agree on the faith? Now you know why.

We need an authority this side of heaven, my friend. And we have one. That’s biblical.

God Bless.

 

[adrift]

Dismissing what you cannot cover up or make excuses for is considered just merely ignorance on the part of Protestants. That’s one of the oldest schemes in the book.

Oh my how you distort what I wrote that is also typical of those who cannot dispute what is truth and a much older scheme.

 

[ChristIsLord]

What you believe is false. You are misquoting what was said. In clear English, you got to be kidding they did not speak English nor write in it. Latin is the official language of the Church.

no it isn’t i can’t believe you’re going to make me look this stuff up. if you have an issue with the translation tell me where it is wrong.

from the council:

“It firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the catholic church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the Catholic Church before the end of their lives”

Pope Innocent III

“Indeed, there is but one universal Church of the faithful outside of which no one at all is saved.”

Pope Binface VIII

“We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.”

there’s more but it’s beating a dead horse…

Many answered you in that thread to show you how you are misquoting. You see no way yet you do not answer what has been pointed out to you as your false understanding.

the answers became totally ridiculous and circular hence why i stopped posting. it’s the same tired apologetic that makes no sense.

This is totally false. Never were indulgences sold this was the propaganda of Protestants. You need to look at history through Catholic eyes not Protestant.

never were indulgences sold huh? i don’t know whose eyes you’re looking at history through but they need glasses. i wonder why the church bothered with a counter reformation specifically to deal with the selling of indulgences then? these were sold all throughout europe, all over st. peter’s yet the pope was “unaware”, doubtful it was funding his basillica.

This was not wide spread. It was a sad happening even if it occurred only once. The Bishops were relying on current psychology. Priest would be sent for counseling and than given a clean bill of health. The Bishops relied to their determent on these experts. Current thought says that such people cannot be curred but it is unfair to say what you wrote based on what is current today.

not that widespread? you have to be kidding me. anytime i hear people apologize for this disaster i get sick to my stomach. i won’t dignify that nonsense with a response.

It is hard to believe that you have done as much investigating as you say and then post what seems a Protestant argument without any trace of Catholicism. Most of what you write is ignorant. I guess Bishop Sheen was right.

believe what you want, none of my concerns are mere “ignorance”, they are legitimate concerns that try as i might have not been able to reconcile. it wouldn’t be right to lie to myself into accepting something i find unacceptable.