How do Non-Catholics who argue against infant baptism reconcile their position with infant circumcision?

[petra22]

Pax! “Reborn Again or Born Anew” speaks of being born again in the spirit - has nothing to do with wombs and the maternity ward. To be reborn in the spirit one must be born with the waters of Baptism/Exorcism according to Jesus. This is a beginning - a beginning that has washed away the sin of Adam and Eve. It is a cleansing, and a prep for the journey in spiritual life which also has to be nurtured and continued with family members, community and parish life - sacraments. Waiting until the baby is older or old, prevents or denies them the grace they are entitled to receive to begin the spiritual journey especially in the “light” of receiving a Sacrament. angeltime:angel1:

 

[Abba]

Oh my goodness, someone got this thread going:


Religion, Parenthood, Brainwashing and Branding
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=1036069

 

[angeltime]

Pax et Bonum! Well, it’s the “damned” opinions we are striving to avoid; the “divine” opinions we are striving to follow! angeltime

 

[MartinJordan]

The Prophet Ezekiel sees water flowing from the Temple.

But WHO is the FULFILLMENT of “The Temple”?

Jesus.

And what happened to Jesus after He breathed out His Spirit?

Out of His side flowed blood (suggesting to us, the Eucharist) and water (suggesting to us Baptism).

Below is a portion from Ezekiel 47 with parenthetical addition mine.

Ezekiel and water flowing from the side of the Temple. A water and Spirit theme prefiguring Jesus and His work.

The fulfillment being Jesus giving the world His Spirit and water from His sacred side.

There are many other prefigurements to Christian Baptism as well.

St. John the Baptist’s baptisms were even a prefigurement to Christian Baptism (they were NOT Christian Baptism. That’s WHY in Acts 19, people who had received St. John the Baptist’s baptism still needed to be Baptized into Christ Jesus as they NEVER had Baptism in the Christian sense).

The water and spirit themes that are life giving (there are others too) all culminate in our Lord Jesus and the waters of Baptism He administers to us to give us the graces of His work on Calvary.

And this will result in an Eschatological fulfillment someday too.

Praised be God!

Just want to say Cathoholic you’ve done an exemplary logical and orderly And not forgetting respectful clarification to authentic reasons for infant Baptism. Thank you for strengthening my Faith.

God bless

MJ

 

[Cathoholic]

Just want to say Cathoholic you’ve done an exemplary logical and orderly And not forgetting respectful clarification to authentic reasons for infant Baptism. Thank you for strengthening my Faith.

God bless

MJ

Thank you so much for the kind words MJ.

Very humbling. Especially since I didn’t come up with this on my own (so I am due even less credit), but I just got it from the Latin Rite Baptismal Liturgy, Protestant converts like Scott Hahn, Tim Staples, Stephan Ray, Jimmy Akin, etc. and teachers like Brant Pitre, and others.

I did the secretarial work (here), but others did the “heavy lifting”.

But again many thanks.

 

[MartinJordan]

Thank you so much for the kind words MJ.

Very humbling. Especially since I didn’t come up with this on my own (so I am due even less credit), but I just got it from the Latin Rite Baptismal Liturgy, Protestant converts like Scott Hahn, Tim Staples, Stephan Ray, Jimmy Akin, etc. and teachers like Brant Pitre, and others.

I did the secretarial work (here), but others did the “heavy lifting”.

But again many thanks.

I’m thankful to you still because you cared to answer Itwin’s doubts (who I consider a valuable member here at CAF) and Ive been carefully following the conversation.

Cheers!

MJ

 

[benhur]

Oh my goodness, someone got this thread going:

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/38/33/f3/3833f3567005a48e26581de1cf2731b4.jpg
Religion, Parenthood, Brainwashing and Branding
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=1036069

Thanks Abba

I posted this to the venerable PR’s thread, (with a few forthright atheists participating)

"Hi PR,

Some one reposted on a infant baptism thread. Reminded me of CC teaching of "permanent " marking on soul (not body ) with baptism…

but this also reminds me of the paradox put forth by those saying," truth is relative, and absolutely so" ?

or like the rhetorical “love you neighbor as yourself” because you can’t love more than how you love yourself…your sin against others is first a sin against yourself…etc.etc…now “love your enemy” is the height of that paradox (?), for agape love can not be given unless first received.

so here the paradox is that not brainwashing your children is still…brainwashing your children. It assumes that somehow children will not mimic , be influenced by parents, but do things “on their own”. Or that Truth can’t find a way thru error, sooner or later.

we all train up a child in the way he should go, from the Christian, to the Buddhist, to the atheist/agnsotic etc., etc.

What you are to yourself you will be to your children.

The question really is not about indoctrination but what is Truth, and how do you “get it”.

Christians do not robotize. For some they have infant baptism , but they also have Confirmation " much later on, (and some they only baptize believers of age), as Jews their Barhmitzvah way after circumcision.

The bible also says know the Truth for yourself, a type of getting you to well, so you can now drink for yourself. Your parents faith does not ultimately suffice for the child. He must choose to make it for himself. It is understood , that “open” door. It is understood that sometimes households will remain religious, while others may find brother against brother, sister against sister /mother /father etc,… all with the same indoctrination. Free will is understood in the Christian mindset.

Even Jesus, the ultimate blood washer personified this. In his ultimate question on Truth, on whom He was, He does not say trust/mimic your indoctrinators. He does not ask the apostles what their parents think, or rabbis, or church authority, or what sacred writings or what they have seen may say, but ,“What do YOU think?” …Can you imagine, the alleged creator of the universe asking one of his many creations, “what do you think”? Is their anything more dignified, self elevating, free will honoring ? And why ? Because Jesus knows Truth indeed is achievable, even thru imperfect indocrtinators and deceivable eyes and minds because God gives it to man, but not robotically, and never out of the realms of faith, though reasonable and with evidences.

Blessings RP…thanks for the outlet.

PS-- looked at picture and said to myself, “Stupid”…as in, " believe me, these children will certainly develop their own opinions, guaranteed…just ask any teenager"

Yet we can perish for lack of knowledge, and the sins of the father are for generations (if unbroken by grace and Truth, that is Jesus)."

 

[MartinJordan]

Itwin said:

No Itwin. This is wrong.

Infants ARE proper candidates for Baptism because they still have Original Sin.

Original Sin is the lack of sanctifying grace.

You infer babies automatically have sanctifying grace Itwin. But you are wrong.

(What “age” or “event” do you think BABIES necessarily fall OUT of grace Itwin? And please cite a Bible verse to back up your claim.)

You essentially have being “born” as a “Sacrament” Itwin.

But we need to be “born AGAIN” according to Jesus. Being “born” isn’t good enough Itwin.

We need to be “born AGAIN” or “born ANEW” or as Jesus clarifies, we need to be born of water AND the Spirit (Baptized).

---

I said:

Itwin replied . . . .

Let’s look at more detail on this . . . .

The Holy Spirit through St. Peter:

Cathoholic:

. .

Itwin:

More of the passage to fill out context . . .

---

Itwin. You said:

No Itwin.

Babies didn’t make a personal decision to “accept Yahweh” in the Old Covenant.

And babies didn’t make a personal decision to accept being circumcised on the eighth day in the Old Covenant either.

Yet by their parent’s choice who have God-given authority, infants were still “Covenanted” to God via circumcision.

. . . . continued . . .

Where’s Itwin? Hope he’s ok.

MJ