How do non-Christians get to heaven?

[meltzerboy]

If you don’t mind me asking you this - how does that idea not imply racism or superiority?

Lisa, it is racist only if you believe that G-d is racist by His choosing one particular people to whom He revealed His Law. And it is racist only if you believe that G-d does not love all people equally. And only if you believe that people who do not follow Jesus’ Word but do follow their own religious and moral convictions and conscience are doomed to Hell. G-d chose the Jewish people not due to any merit on their part but by His grace. Thus they have a special responsibility to love and obey Him by means of following His Word or Law and to encourage by their example other people who were not directly given that Law to nonetheless do the same by living according to moral principles.

 

[TradionalWay]

From the Catholic perspective, it is possible for non-Catholics and even non-Christians to be saved based on the Catechism and the teachings of the Church.

Are u sure that’s the teaching of the church?

A lot of posts and opinions on threads like this seem to carry a lot of ‘universalist’ influence.

The Church has unceasingly taught that outside the Church there is no salvation, “Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus”. However, those who are invincibly ignorant may be saved.

First time I see the the post someone mentioning this :thankyou:

 

[stewstew03]

So when it comes to judging other people…I scrutinize their beliefs…we must always follow the Gospel…and Jesus said in essence He is at the door of every heart…do we feed the hungry, cloth the naked, visit those in prison, etc?..should be our focus.

I can’t discern whether or not you’re judging me or disagreeing with me…

 

[Conor7]

Usually as a weekend guest of a Christian member.

Your friend,
Sufjon

:clapping: That’s witty! Hopefully Heaven isn’t as exclusive as my nanna’s country club.

 

[Neaster84]

As to the question itself, I feel that since we are not the ones making the decisions on who shall be allowed into heaven, it would thus be inappropriate for us to make conjectures.

That being said, I do believe that the Church in its earthly ministry, has established guidelines for which one who loves Christ may augment that love and then hopefully be rewarded with being in the constant presence of God, which is really what heaven is.

It certainly can’t be good to go against those guidelines, and I daresay that these guidelines are as good as it gets in our human imperfection. Therefore, until such time that the Lord graces the earth to establish a new set of guidelines, it would be unwise to go against them.

 

[TradionalWay]

As to the question itself, I feel that since we are not the ones making the decisions on who shall be allowed into heaven, it would thus be inappropriate for us to make conjectures.

That being said, I do believe that the Church in its earthly ministry, has established guidelines for which one who loves Christ may augment that love and then hopefully be rewarded with being in the constant presence of God, which is really what heaven is.

It certainly can’t be good to go against those guidelines, and I daresay that these guidelines are as good as it gets in our human imperfection. Therefore, until such time that the Lord graces the earth to establish a new set of guidelines, it would be unwise to go against them.

I agree with this… And the church is guided with the Holy Spirit

 

[KathleenGee]

Stew…

Jesus Christ is the gate to heaven. But He is also all knowing and merciful.

The saints over and over tell us not to judge the souls of other people. We have no right to do so, only God.

There is only one thing to be anxious about…and that is pleasing God, loving Him above all things…and in our great information society, nevertheless, I would say in the USA, people know but these days are rejecting all forms of religion…

They will also say, I don’t believe in religion, but I am a spiritual person…again, willful ignorance and limiting themselves in the life of grace.

I look at so many married couples who are choosing the material life over having a family…the disregard for sexual morality in our country…now teens and children regularly look at pornographic images…the gang girls…the public filth language…the cheating…the lack of truthfulness in human relationships…

So all I can do is not judge, but pray for conversions and keep the focus on my own sinfulness and seek forgiveness.

 

[Lisa44]

Lisa, it is racist only if you believe that G-d is racist by His choosing one particular people to whom He revealed His Law. And it is racist only if you believe that G-d does not love all people equally. And only if you believe that people who do not follow Jesus’ Word but do follow their own religious and moral convictions and conscience are doomed to Hell. G-d chose the Jewish people not due to any merit on their part but by His grace. Thus they have a special responsibility to love and obey Him by means of following His Word or Law and to encourage by their example other people who were not directly given that Law to nonetheless do the same by living according to moral principles.

My concern is that it seemed as though people couldn’t convert or join the religion. If you were not born a Jew you could only be a Noachide. That sets up a system of inequality. “Chosen” (ie; born a Jew) and “not chosen” (a noachide).

In that situation you can see why Jesus had to come to save the lost sheep who the Jews were not allowing to enter the fold.

I’m just saying… it seems racist. Could you imagine if another church would not admit certain races of people into the church! (I’m reminded of the Mormon church not admitting blacks).

It’s one extreme to say that EVERYONE must belong to one particular church, its another extreme to say that NO ONE except those born into a certain race can be members of the church.

Two extreme viewpoints. I know there were historically a few converts to Judaism through marriage. But still… the doors were not open to the non Jews.

 

[stewstew03]

Stew…

Jesus Christ is the gate to heaven. But He is also all knowing and merciful.

The saints over and over tell us not to judge the souls of other people. We have no right to do so, only God.

There is only one thing to be anxious about…and that is pleasing God, loving Him above all things…and in our great information society, nevertheless, I would say in the USA, people know but these days are rejecting all forms of religion…

They will also say, I don’t believe in religion, but I am a spiritual person…again, willful ignorance and limiting themselves in the life of grace.

I look at so many married couples who are choosing the material life over having a family…the disregard for sexual morality in our country…now teens and children regularly look at pornographic images…the gang girls…the public filth language…the cheating…the lack of truthfulness in human relationships…

So all I can do is not judge, but pray for conversions and keep the focus on my own sinfulness and seek forgiveness.

I agree with the general points you’re making Kathleen (on this thread and the others). Still, there is the search for truth, and as believers we have an obligation to be ready to provide a defense to anyone who asks us about our faith (1 Peter 3:15, Jude 3). Now, if a believer were to stand on a street corner condemning “unrepentant sinners” to Hades, or aggressively seeking to evangelize unbelievers at work, then that presents a problem. However, given that CAF provides an opportunity for believers and non-believers of all varieties to share their views charitably, topics such as justification, sanctification, salvation, etc. are appropriate in this context.

 

[KathleenGee]

Stew…

I wasn’t rejecting your comments at all…

We are not to judge others’ salvation…but the message of Christ is being made known in America, albeit many times not in the spirit of the Church…

And when I look at the behaviors across our country, it doesn’t look good. We all want people to be living in the Lord…but the secular world is really putting its foot down on religious life in this country…and it all comes down to people’s choice.

They actively accept Christ…may be the moment before death…or they willfully reject Him. It is up to them.

 

[meltzerboy]

My concern is that it seemed as though people couldn’t convert or join the religion. If you were not born a Jew you could only be a Noachide. That sets up a system of inequality. “Chosen” (ie; born a Jew) and “not chosen” (a noachide).

In that situation you can see why Jesus had to come to save the lost sheep who the Jews were not allowing to enter the fold.

I’m just saying… it seems racist. Could you imagine if another church would not admit certain races of people into the church! (I’m reminded of the Mormon church not admitting blacks).

It’s one extreme to say that EVERYONE must belong to one particular church, its another extreme to say that NO ONE except those born into a certain race can be members of the church.

Two extreme viewpoints. I know there were historically a few converts to Judaism through marriage. But still… the doors were not open to the non Jews.

Where did you get the impression that Judaism does not allow converts to the religion? Ruth was a convert, to take one famous historical example. And in Modern Judaism, anyone can become Jewish. Being Jewish is NOT confined to having a Jewish mother. Further, converts to Judaism are regarded as just as Jewish as one born to the Jewish faith. There have been many more than a few converts. In converting to Orthodox Judaism, one is cautioned three times with respect to the challenges involved, but if one is willing to accept them and study the religious laws, one is welcomed with open arms. Conversions to Conservative and Reform Judaism are considerably less stringent.

 

[icamay]

vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P29.HTM

About separated Christians:

818 "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers … All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."272

And their salvation

819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth"273 are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."274 Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,275 and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."276

And how that can be

820 "Christ bestowed unity on his Church from the beginning. This unity, we believe, subsists in the Catholic Church as something she can never lose, and we hope that it will continue to increase until the end of time."277 Christ always gives his Church the gift of unity, but the Church must always pray and work to maintain, reinforce, and perfect the unity that Christ wills for her. This is why Jesus himself prayed at the hour of his Passion, and does not cease praying to his Father, for the unity of his disciples: "That they may all be one. As you, Father, are in me and I am in you, may they also be one in us, . . . so that the world may know that you have sent me."278 The desire to recover the unity of all Christians is a gift of Christ and a call of the Holy Spirit.279

It is true - outside of the church, there is no salvation

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336

How they are eligible for salvation

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337

848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338

vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P2L.HTM

Everyone will die and be faced with the choice - Jesus or no?

1021 Death puts an end to human life as the time open to either accepting or rejecting the divine grace manifested in Christ.590 The New Testament speaks of judgment primarily in its aspect of the final encounter with Christ in his second coming, but also repeatedly affirms that each will be rewarded immediately after death in accordance with his works and faith. the parable of the poor man Lazarus and the words of Christ on the cross to the good thief, as well as other New Testament texts speak of a final destiny of the soul -a destiny which can be different for some and for others.591

Everyone will be judged - not just Christians.

1022 Each man receives his eternal retribution in his immortal soul at the very moment of his death, in a particular judgment that refers his life to Christ: either entrance into the blessedness of heaven-through a purification592 or immediately,593-or immediate and everlasting damnation.594

vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P2N.HTM

Those who are not in perfect grace with God will have one last chance to purify themselves in Purgatory

1030 All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.604 The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. the tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:605

As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.606

 

[Lisa44]

Where did you get the impression that Judaism does not allow converts to the religion? Ruth was a convert, to take one famous historical example. And in Modern Judaism, anyone can become Jewish. Being Jewish is NOT confined to having a Jewish mother. Further, converts to Judaism are regarded as just as Jewish as one born to the Jewish faith. There have been many more than a few converts. In converting to Orthodox Judaism, one is cautioned three times with respect to the challenges involved, but if one is willing to accept them and study the religious laws, one is welcomed with open arms. Conversions to Conservative and Reform Judaism are considerably less stringent.

I thought historically that Judaism didn’t accept converts? I was further confused by the Jew/Noachide distinction. I apologize sincerely if I was mistaken. So in the time of Jesus people were allowed to convert to Judaism? Where does the Noachide path come from? I don’t recall reading that in the O.T.

 

[Kaninchen]

So in the time of Jesus people were allowed to convert to Judaism?

Men tended to be a bit reluctant (think about it ).

 

[icamay]

Men tended to be a bit reluctant (think about it ).

 

[Carlan]

Good point…many do not understand who Christ really is…and when people demonstrate good will and kindness to others…surely there is grace of God at work in that person’s soul.

In such cases, we leave them to the mercy of God, as the Church has done.

Yes, I agree and also because the Apostolic Church and others believes in a purification process before and after death for those of us who have not, as yet, rec’d all understanding. Peace and Good will to all, Carlan

 

[LayingHands]

It amazes me to realize first…that there are so many so called branches of Religions…hundreds, nay, thousands…and all believe their religion is the only one which is creed (correct belief)…

We are ALL created by GOD and therefore subject to GOD’s mercy and will…He loves us All and wants us All to come back Home to Him…

The Spiritsoul within All your Hearts which gives you the birth right to His Eternal Life is a spark of His being…

There is an example which goes…there is a tree within your heart and two beautiful birds…the one bird (you) is busy, eating, playing, working, raising a family…as the other bird (GOD), sits and watches…all you do for your material existence and sense gratification (fulfilling all your 6 senses) busy, busy…

The second bird (GOD) is waiting for you to finally turn around and face Him, acknowledge Him, worship Him, glorify and find Peace in Him, believe and place your Spiritsoul willfully and completely in Him…

God says to ALL Humanity;“Always think of Me and become My devotee. Worship Me and offer your homage unto Me, thus you will come to Me without fail. I promise you this because you are My very dear friend. Engage your mind always in thinking of Me, engage your body in My service and surrender unto Me. Completely absorbed in Me, surely will you come to Me”

 

[Sufjon]

It amazes me to realize first…that there are so many so called branches of Religions…hundreds, nay, thousands…and all believe their religion is the only one which is creed (correct belief)…

We are ALL created by GOD and therefore subject to GOD’s mercy and will…He loves us All and wants us All to come back Home to Him…

The Spiritsoul within All your Hearts which gives you the birth right to His Eternal Life is a spark of His being…

There is an example which goes…there is a tree within your heart and two beautiful birds…the one bird (you) is busy, eating, playing, working, raising a family…as the other bird (GOD), sits and watches…all you do for your material existence and sense gratification (fulfilling all your 6 senses) busy, busy…

The second bird (GOD) is waiting for you to finally turn around and face Him, acknowledge Him, worship Him, glorify and find Peace in Him, believe and place your Spiritsoul willfully and completely in Him…

God says to ALL Humanity;“Always think of Me and become My devotee. Worship Me and offer your homage unto Me, thus you will come to Me without fail. I promise you this because you are My very dear friend. Engage your mind always in thinking of Me, engage your body in My service and surrender unto Me. Completely absorbed in Me, surely will you come to Me”

Beautiful post LayingHands!

Your friend,
Sufjon

 

[Lisa44]

Men tended to be a bit reluctant (think about it ).

True.

 

[Carlan]

It amazes me to realize first…that there are so many so called branches of Religions…hundreds, nay, thousands…and all believe their religion is the only one which is creed (correct belief)…

We are ALL created by GOD and therefore subject to GOD’s mercy and will…He loves us All and wants us All to come back Home to Him…

The Spiritsoul within All your Hearts which gives you the birth right to His Eternal Life is a spark of His being…

There is an example which goes…there is a tree within your heart and two beautiful birds…the one bird (you) is busy, eating, playing, working, raising a family…as the other bird (GOD), sits and watches…all you do for your material existence and sense gratification (fulfilling all your 6 senses) busy, busy…

The second bird (GOD) is waiting for you to finally turn around and face Him, acknowledge Him, worship Him, glorify and find Peace in Him, believe and place your Spiritsoul willfully and completely in Him…

God says to ALL Humanity;“Always think of Me and become My devotee. Worship Me and offer your homage unto Me, thus you will come to Me without fail. I promise you this because you are My very dear friend. Engage your mind always in thinking of Me, engage your body in My service and surrender unto Me. Completely absorbed in Me, surely will you come to Me”

Laying hands, I love what you say here!

Dear Lord your peace and good will be always in our hearts!
Carlan.