How do non-denominational Christians pick a church?

[jmcrae]

Well I guess that depends on what you are trying to prove. Satan tried to prove angels would catch Jesus if he threw himself from the temple, using Psalm 91.

I am not “trying to prove” anything at all - I am just trying to have a conversation with God that includes all of the information that He wants me to know.

 

[PRmerger]

Well, maybe I mistagged the post, but there was some relevance discussion going on… I think :manvspc:

Alright, then.

Can you answer my question now?

How do you know what verses in Scripture are essential and what are secondary? (Scripture does not tell us, does it?)

 

[Xavierlives]

Alright, then.

Can you answer my question now?

How do you know what verses in Scripture are essential and what are secondary? (Scripture does not tell us, does it?)

Primary, secondary, tertiary… How can you limit God’s word that way? Thats like saying, which body part is most important to live? Your brain, your heart or your lungs?

Instead you should be advancing your understanding of the scripture. If that is not acceptable, then start with love.

 

[Xavierlives]

I am not “trying to prove” anything at all - I am just trying to have a conversation with God that includes all of the information that He wants me to know.

Oh, in that case… carry on.

 

[jmcrae]

Primary, secondary, tertiary… How can you limit God’s word that way? Thats like saying, which body part is most important to live? Your brain, your heart or your lungs?

Instead you should be advancing your understanding of the scripture. If that is not acceptable, then start with love.

Um - does this mean that you’ve switched sides in this argument, and that you now agree with us?

 

[PRmerger]

Primary, secondary, tertiary… How can you limit God’s word that way? Thats like saying, which body part is most important to live? Your brain, your heart or your lungs?

Instead you should be advancing your understanding of the scripture. If that is not acceptable, then start with love.

'zactly, brother!

So when you made a claim like this:

Personally, if you have a made a profession of faith in Jesus, than I think there isn’t much need for me to share anything else with you (unless that faith also includes… err… other prophets).

it sounded like you were making ONE thing primary–profession faith in Jesus.

I think you see, now, from the progression of this thread, that simply making a profession of faith in Jesus is NOT Scriptural and does, indeed, dissect God’s Word into inanity.

 

[Xavierlives]

'zactly, brother!

So when you made a claim like this:

it sounded like you were making ONE thing primary–profession faith in Jesus.

I think you see, now, from the progression of this thread, that simply making a profession of faith in Jesus is NOT Scriptural and does, indeed, dissect God’s Word into inanity.

Ok. I guess I better address this because it is somehow a problem.

If I could start with a little story. My grandmother died about 10 years ago and when she went it wasn’t pretty. She never stood out in my mind as a Christian, and so I remember having a conversation with her about God and his plan for salvation. I remember her saying she accepted Christ as her personal savior. Now flash forward to now. I can sit and think about her and wonder. Did she really understand? Did she really accept Jesus? I can only take her words as the truth. An individual testimony of salvation.

When I made that comment 500 posts ago, I was referencing this generalized witness that we all have. If you say here that you are a Christian, than you are making a public profession. I should, as a fellow Christian accept your testimony as true and not doubt the veracity of that testimony. There are too many faiths or denominations that exclude all. Pointing fingers and saying, “You aren’t saved, because you haven’t paid your annual tithe” or they posit, “You aren’t saved because you won’t say what we say.” I believe that is horse puckey. If I see you have fruit, than you must have been pollinated with the Holy Spirit. If you see I have fruit, than the same must be true. As for grandma, I know she didn’t have time for fruit, but I’m sure her tree was breaking the soil as she was taken.

 

[PRmerger]

Ok. I guess I better address this because it is somehow a problem.

If I could start with a little story. My grandmother died about 10 years ago and when she went it wasn’t pretty. She never stood out in my mind as a Christian, and so I remember having a conversation with her about God and his plan for salvation. I remember her saying she accepted Christ as her personal savior. Now flash forward to now. I can sit and think about her and wonder. Did she really understand? Did she really accept Jesus? I can only take her words as the truth. An individual testimony of salvation.

When I made that comment 500 posts ago, I was referencing this generalized witness that we all have. If you say here that you are a Christian, than you are making a public profession. I should, as a fellow Christian accept your testimony as true and not doubt the veracity of that testimony. There are too many faiths or denominations that exclude all. Pointing fingers and saying, “You aren’t saved, because you haven’t paid your annual tithe” or they posit, “You aren’t saved because you won’t say what we say.” I believe that is horse puckey. If I see you have fruit, than you must have been pollinated with the Holy Spirit. If you see I have fruit, than the same must be true. As for grandma, I know she didn’t have time for fruit, but I’m sure her tree was breaking the soil as she was taken.

All I’m trying to do, XL, is understand your position:

Do you believe that there are essentials to Christianity that we must all believe in order to be a Christian, and the rest is secondary–that is, we can “agree to disagree”?

It *sounded *like that was your original position, 500 posts ago, 365 posts ago, 10 posts ago.

It sounded like that when you said this:

I just don’t see it as a problem. If we are both honoring Christ in remembrance for what he did, it doesn’t matter to me that you believe that the Eucharist is the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Christ. It shouldn’t matter to you that I believe that it is representational.

We are one in following what Jesus said.

Then, suddenly, you’re saying that claiming essentials is like saying what body part is most important!

I’m

Perhaps you understand, now, that claiming there are certain things which you claim are essential, and the rest is all “it shouldn’t matter”, is an aburdity.

For, this list of essentials is an arbitrary, man-made, non-authoritative doctrine that you’ve made up for yourself.

 

[Xavierlives]

All I’m trying to do, XL, is understand your position:

Do you believe that there are essentials to Christianity that we must all believe in order to be a Christian, and the rest is secondary–that is, we can “agree to disagree”?

It *sounded *like that was your original position, 500 posts ago, 365 posts ago, 10 posts ago.

It sounded like that when you said this:

Then, suddenly, you’re saying that claiming essentials is like saying what body part is most important!

I’m

Perhaps you understand, now, that claiming there are certain things which you claim are essential, and the rest is all “it shouldn’t matter”, is an aburdity.

For, this list of essentials is an arbitrary, man-made, non-authoritative doctrine that you’ve made up for yourself.

I’m not changing my point, I am trying to clarify. You can say, the brain is the most important organ to survive, and I can respond, Without the heart, you have nothing. You can say, You have to have your lungs or you’ll die in 7 mins. I say, You need your heart to move the oxygen, you have nothing.

My point is, we can sit here and go in circles all day long. People can look to tradition or the ways of men to define their salvation, but in the end, without faith, you have nothing. If I say I have faith, then you should rejoice. You shouldn’t question stance on baptism, you should rejoice in my faith. You shouldn’t wonder about communion, you should rejoice in my faith.

 

[jmcrae]

I’m not changing my point, I am trying to clarify. You can say, the brain is the most important organ to survive, and I can respond, Without the heart, you have nothing. You can say, You have to have your lungs or you’ll die in 7 mins. I say, You need your heart to move the oxygen, you have nothing.

My point is, we can sit here and go in circles all day long. People can look to tradition or the ways of men to define their salvation, but in the end, without faith, you have nothing. If I say I have faith, then you should rejoice. You shouldn’t question stance on baptism, you should rejoice in my faith. You shouldn’t wonder about communion, you should rejoice in my faith.

Okay - going with your analogy of the body - without Baptism, we have no 'lungs" and without Holy Communion we have no “heart” - we are going on “Brain” (the Bible) and “Nervous System” (how we feel about God) alone, without these things. You are absolutely right - we aren’t going to get very far with no lungs and no heart.

So - why say that they are “non-essential”? Everything is essential.

 

[PRmerger]

My point is, we can sit here and go in circles all day long. People can look to tradition or the ways of men to define their salvation, but in the end, without faith, you have nothing. If I say I have faith, then you should rejoice. You shouldn’t question stance on baptism, you should rejoice in my faith. You shouldn’t wonder about communion, you should rejoice in my faith.

I do rejoice in your faith.

I am, however, puzzled by your posts.

Why should we not know whether baptism saves us? Or whether we must truly eat His flesh and drink His blood to have eternal life? I want to be able to love God with my entire heart, soul, MIND and strength. My MIND tells me that I can know the truth about these questions.

It sounds like, now, you’re saying it doesn’t really matter–God will look at our faith and rejoice that we’re Christian–and the other truths don’t matter.

I ask you why God doesn’t really care then if someone is a good, faith-filled Muslim? Why don’t you rejoice in his faith?

You see, you draw a line, too, and are exclusive in your beliefs, yet criticize Catholics for drawing a line and being exclusive in our beliefs.

 

[MyRdmrLvs]

What? It all has relevance.

Let me illustrate with a little story.

Bob is standing at the corner of main and state street with a group of people. Suddenly two bank robbers burst out of the corner bank. Bob is startled and spills his coffee on Bruno, a great dane. Bruno is rather beastly so his master,Fran, wraps the leash several times around her wrist. When the extremely hot coffee hits Bruno, he shoots out into the street dragging Fran behind. A car being driven by Fred swerves to miss Fran, but unfortately mows down Bruno. 15 seconds before this, Bruno had tried to pee on Bob’s leg, and Bob chastised Fran. Fran, had turned to look at Bob and saw the robbers heading with guns drawn, but could not speak. When the robbers burst out the door, they immediately head into the street pushing several people out of the way. One is Elsie, a little old lady out for her daily constitutional. Elsie falls into the gutter and breaks her hip and will eventually die from her injuries. One of the bank robbers, for a moments time, stops to aid Elsie. Being an old codger, Elsie slaps the robber so hard, it knocks free his Dead President mask just enough to show a birth mark on his chin that remarkedly resembled the State of Texas. This is well known birth mark of the Mayor. The robbers jump into the car driven by Fred and drive off. All of this is captured on the corner street camera, designed to catch red light runners, which actually also caught Jessica running a red light as she watched it all happen.

When the tape is shown, is the fact that Bob appeared to tilting his cup on Bruno relevant to Elsie? No. Is it relevant to Fran? Yes. Is the fact that Fred attempted to miss hitting Fran relevant to Elsie? No. Is it to Fran? Yes. Is the fact that the State of Texas can be seen on the video relevant to everyone? Yes.

The whole point to this little exercise is, not everything will be relevant to everyone. Somethings will be relevant to all. But the tape can be used for a variety of ways to assist a variety of people for a variety of needs. The scripture is like this.

Did you make that up?

 

[Xavierlives]

Okay - going with your analogy of the body - without Baptism, we have no 'lungs" and without Holy Communion we have no “heart” - we are going on “Brain” (the Bible) and “Nervous System” (how we feel about God) alone, without these things. You are absolutely right - we aren’t going to get very far with no lungs and no heart.

So - why say that they are “non-essential”? Everything is essential.

I am not saying there aren’t essentials. Alpha to Omega is essential, but if I have to pick a sign of salvation is it faith. If I have to pick something to strive for it is Love. But when it comes to laws, as a lawyer, I see that there are exceptions to rules. There is time where mercy is applied. I see examples of it in the Bible and it is all based on Faith.

My grandmother never received communion. My grandmother never was baptized. But I am not going to limit God’s mercy and say, well, she didn’t do those… she is hell-bound. Jesus hold the gavel, not me.

 

[MyRdmrLvs]

And most importantly, the standard that the bishops of those councils judged the authenticity of the books against was the Tradition of the Catholic Church. If you do not believe in the authenticity of the Catholic faith, there is no reason to believe the authenticity of the Bible, period.

One can believe in the catholic church and not believe in the Roman Catholic Church

 

[Xavierlives]

One can believe in the catholic church and not believe in the Roman Catholic Church

Yes. the catholic church is the universal Christian Church.

 

[PRmerger]

I am not saying they aren’t essential. Alpha to Omega is essential, but if I have to pick a sign of salvation is it faith. If I have to pick something to strive for it is Love.

Amen!

That brings up the question: faith in what?
So do you believe a loving Muslim who has faith in the One God is saved?

My grandmother never received communion. My grandmother never was baptized. But I am not going to limit God’s mercy and say, well, she didn’t do those… she is hell-bound. Jesus hold the gavel, not me.

That’s very Catholic of you to say that, XL!

Did you know that the CC dedicates an entire feast day to hundreds of individuals who were never baptized nor never received communion? Yup–they’re so special that they get an entire Sacred Liturgy celebrating their glorious and rightful place in heaven! :dancing:

 

[PRmerger]

One can believe in the catholic church and not believe in the Roman Catholic Church

And what is it that you believe in this catholic church?

 

[Xavierlives]

Personally I think their is the misconception that protestants are willy-nilly picking and choosing some randomness of the Bible as our “doctrine” and that we have some aire of arrogance that we are smarter than thousands of years of teachers.

Quite honestly, I share quite a few views with the CC, (many more than say, the JW). But there are some that I disagree with and they are pretty hard core CC views. I can read and understand the Bible, and just outright disagree. You can’t be Catholic and disagree with the CC. I don’t think I am smarter, I just think I have a different understanding. I think there are things we should do. Does it change my belief in Christ? No. Does it change my faith? No. So, does it matter? Well it does to me. I can’t join a church and live with what I believe to be a misconception. I want to be in fellowship with those who share views.

Because I don’t pick the CC am I wrong? Well according to the CC I am. But they have to say that or everyone would be protestant. So, I am fine that the CC is in conflict with me. I am not in conflict with the CC. There are different reasons to have sheep. Jesus has different flocks. We all hear his voice. Hopefully some day soon he will unite us.

 

[Xavierlives]

Amen!

That brings up the question: faith in what?
So do you believe a loving Muslim who has faith in the One God is saved?

Haven’t we already danced to this song?

I’ll dance again, I guess. First I need some coffee. Be back in 10 mins.

 

[PRmerger]

And what is it that you believe in this catholic church?

Does your “catholic church” believe in infant Baptism? Baptism by immersion, by sprinkling, in a body of water? Is it an ordinance or a sacrament?

What about the Rapture?

Must you speak in Tongues to be saved?

Can you be a divorced man and get married by your pastor in this “catholic church”

What does your “catholic church” teach on abortion?

What does it teach about Homosexuality?

Are you once saved, always saved?

Are women allowed to be pastors in this “catholic church”?

Does this church teach a pastor must be ordained?

Is drinking allowed?

Must you attend weekly services, or you don’t have to go to church?

Is God‘s Holy Name Jehovah?

Can men and women sit together during services?

(You don’t have to answer, MRL. I’m just trying to make a point! The above are just a sampling of the multitude of different belief systems that people have created by reading the very same verses in the Bible, and coming up with different–sometimes contradictory!–understandings. It’s mind-boggling!

And, IMHO, a paradigm created in the depths of hell. What better way to create chaos in the Body of Christ than this. :sad_yes