How do non-denominational Christians pick a church?

[jmcrae]

Is this really want where you wanted to go here? Do you really want to defend the Mormons as Christian?

If we are going to accept the Seventh Day Adventists, or the United Church of Canada, then we also have to accept the Mormons, since all we really can do (once we have gone beyond the boundaries of any kind of verifiable Apostolic Succession) is accept their claim to be Christians. There is no proof that the SDA are Christians, nor is there any proof that the United Church of Canada is Christian - we pretty much just accept their say-so. It would be unfair, given that, to then not accept the say-so of other organizations, such as the Mormons.

 

[1beleevr]

Indeed. Since there were no other denominations, it was a Christian nondenominational church.

This nondemoninational Christian church had bishops, priests, prayed to saints, celebrated the Eucharist, prayed for the dead, baptized infants, believed in purgatory, venerated Mary…

]

Okay, so you’re saying that in nondenominational churches we could have bishops and priests? And if purgatory is not mentioned in the Bible, how do you know that they believed in it? Do you mean they partook of communion, like nondenoms do today? Did they pray to saints?

 

[1beleevr]

If we are going to accept the Seventh Day Adventists, or the United Church of Canada, then we also have to accept the Mormons, since all we really can do (once we have gone beyond the boundaries of any kind of verifiable Apostolic Succession) is accept their claim to be Christians. There is no proof that the SDA are Christians, nor is there any proof that the United Church of Canada is Christian - we pretty much just accept their say-so. It would be unfair, given that, to then not accept the say-so of other organizations, such as the Mormons.

]

Where is the proof that any of us are Christians? Some believe that if they are born into a Christian family, they are a Christian! Are catholics Christians? Are Baptists? How about nondenoms?

 

[MyRdmrLvs]

They remain catholics in the manner which(standard) they will held accountable to…as such they are still considered christain,but no longer in full union with His church. There is one other factor that is considered in this whole mess and that is: did the holder of heretical befiefs, know the truth in the first place.

Meaning he chose to be wrong, Or was persuaded to be wrong after he was originally right?

 

[MyRdmrLvs]

L

Do you really want to defend the Mormons as Christian?

I think they have as much a right to be considered a Christian denomination as your church does. They’ve read the Bible and think their doctrines truly speak God’s words.

Really?

 

[fbl9]

That’s my point.

My fault it seems we have talking past each other…key is the words “but you say i see” You are talking of those whom left the Church in favor of fellowship/group. It is their claim that they “see” so they will be held acccountable to the standard of the Church…not of their present beleifs.

 

[fbl9]

Meaning he chose to be wrong, Or was persuaded to be wrong after he was originally right?

Personally i hope a person wouldn’t delibrately choose to not be part of the true Church,but that would be the noramal case for those who were not in full union with the church(deliberatley choosing not to).The largest part of those whom left the Church would fall into the being presuaded group.

 

[PRmerger]

Okay, so you’re saying that in nondenominational churches we could have bishops and priests?

No. I’m not saying that.

I’m saying that this is what the early Christians did–had bishops and priests. Our church today still does that. 2000 years of unbroken teaching which has not strayed from the original.

 

[MariaG]

I think they have as much a right to be considered a Christian denomination as your church does. They’ve read the Bible and think their doctrines truly speak God’s words.

Well, the Catholic Church would disagree.

Most protestants do not have to recieve baptism if they wish to join the CAtholic Church, if they have already had one, and the ones that do frequently recieve a “conditional baptism” meaning that the baptism did not have documentation and they are being baptized “just in case” there was not a valid baptism and not just poor documentation.

But Mormons must recieve baptism in the Catholic Church because it has been deemed by the Catholic Church that their teaching of God and the Trinity are too different to be considered a valid baptism.

That means that most Protestants are considered to be “separated brethren”. Christians validly baptized, our brothers and sisters in Christ.

From Catholic Answers This Rock
The Catholic Church does not recognize Mormon baptism as valid because, although Mormons and Catholics use the same words, those words have completely unrelated meanings for each religion. The Mormon’s very concept of God is infinitely different from that of Christians—even though they call themselves the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.

Mormons believe that God is only one of many gods who were once men and that each of us in turn can become what God is now. This process of men becoming gods is said to go back infinitely. But of course none of these gods can be infinite if they are multiple and had a beginning and are actually human beings. In Mormons’ view, both Jesus and the Father are what we would call glorified creatures.

They also believe that Jesus came into existence after the Father, and that the Father and the Son are not one in being. Thus, although they use the phrase “the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit,” in their usage this phrase takes on a meaning that is actually polytheistic and pagan rather than trinitarian.

For an in-depth look at this, see the books Inside Mormonism and When Mormons Call by Isaiah Bennett, available from Catholic Answers. For a shorter but equally incisive take, see Fr. Brian Harrison’s two-part series on Mormonism in the April and May-June 2003 issues of This Rock.

 

[Xavierlives]

:ehh:

That’s a pretty powerful gift you’ve got there, XL, that you can see into my heart. sarcasm fully intended

You only, really, know what my words say on your computer, and I suggest you amend your judgments of what my heart speaks to that.

I am sorry you feel it is a judgment. Only you can decide what you want to do with it. You can soften your heart and accept it or do otherwise. You decide what is the Catholic thing to do.

 

[PRmerger]

Well, the Catholic Church would disagree.

Yes, of course. As I stated earlier, Mormons are not Christians.

However, the discussion is whether they have a legitimate place in the 40,000 Christian denomination list. Certainly, when one considers all the other 40,000 denominations, their position as an “organized aggregate of worship centers or congregations of similar ecclesiastical tradition” is as valid as any other.

 

[PRmerger]

And if purgatory is not mentioned in the Bible, how do you know that they believed in it?

We were talking about the early Christians in the first centuries–what they believed, how they practiced, how they worshipped, Since there was no Bible for 400 years everything they believed was preserved through Sacred Tradition.

Catholics can show that everything we practice and believe has been in existence from the first centuries onward (sometimes even earlier.) Most Protestant traditions (such as “altar calls” or belief in the Rapture) show no evidence of practice in the early church. They sprang up relatively recently, from some fallible man’s non-authoritative personal interpretation of a particular Scripture verse.

(This re-visits the discussion we had a while ago regarding infant dedication. I had asked you to show me examples of infant dedications in the early church. It seems that it is a man-made tradition started, as far as I can tell, in the 20th century.)

 

[PRmerger]

Now to give examples of early Christians who believed in purgatory:

*"As the quotes below from the early Church Fathers show, purgatory has been part of the Christian faith from the very beginning.

Some imagine that the Catholic Church has an elaborate doctrine of purgatory worked out, but there are only three essential components of the doctrine: (1) that a purification after death exists, (2) that it involves some kind of pain, and (3) that the purification can be assisted by the prayers and offerings by the living to God. Other ideas, such that purgatory is a particular “place” in the afterlife or that it takes time to accomplish, are speculations rather than doctrines.

The Acts of Paul and Thecla

“And after the exhibition, Tryphaena again received her [Thecla]. For her daughter Falconilla had died, and said to her in a dream: ‘Mother, you shall have this stranger Thecla in my place, in order that she may pray concerning me, and that I may be transferred to the place of the righteous’” (Acts of Paul and Thecla [A.D. 160]).

Abercius

“The citizen of a prominent city, I erected this while I lived, that I might have a resting place for my body. Abercius is my name, a disciple of the chaste Shepherd who feeds his sheep on the mountains and in the fields, who has great eyes surveying everywhere, who taught me the faithful writings of life. Standing by, I, Abercius, ordered this to be inscribed: Truly, I was in my seventy-second year. May everyone who is in accord with this and who understands it pray for Abercius” (Epitaph of Abercius [A.D. 190]).

The Martyrdom of Perpetua and Felicity

“[T]hat very night, this was shown to me in a vision: I [Perpetua] saw Dinocrates going out from a gloomy place, where also there were several others, and he was parched and very thirsty, with a filthy countenance and pallid color, and the wound on his face which he had when he died. This Dinocrates had been my brother after the flesh, seven years of age, who died miserably with disease. . . . For him I had made my prayer, and between him and me there was a large interval, so that neither of us could approach to the other . . . and knew that my brother was in suffering. But I trusted that my prayer would bring help to his suffering; and I prayed for him every day until we passed over into the prison of the camp, for we were to fight in the camp-show. Then . . . I made my prayer for my brother day and night, groaning and weeping that he might be granted to me. Then, on the day on which we remained in fetters, this was shown to me: I saw that the place which I had formerly observed to be in gloom was now bright; and Dinocrates, with a clean body well clad, was finding refreshment. . . . [And] he went away from the water to play joyously, after the manner of children, and I awoke. Then I understood that he was translated from the place of punishment” (The Martyrdom of Perpetua and Felicity 2:3–4 [A.D. 202]).

Tertullian

“We offer sacrifices for the dead on their birthday anniversaries [the date of death—birth into eternal life]” (The Crown 3:3 [A.D. 211]).

“A woman, after the death of her husband . . . prays for his soul and asks that he may, while waiting, find rest; and that he may share in the first resurrection. And each year, on the anniversary of his death, she offers the sacrifice” (Monogamy 10:1–2 [A.D. 216]).

Cyprian of Carthage

“The strength of the truly believing remains unshaken; and with those who fear and love God with their whole heart, their integrity continues steady and strong. For to adulterers even a time of repentance is granted by us, and peace * is given. Yet virginity is not therefore deficient in the Church, nor does the glorious design of continence languish through the sins of others. The Church, crowned with so many virgins, flourishes; and chastity and modesty preserve the tenor of their glory. Nor is the vigor of continence broken down because repentance and pardon are facilitated to the adulterer. It is one thing to stand for pardon, another thing to attain to glory; it is one thing, when cast into prison, not to go out thence until one has paid the uttermost farthing; another thing at once to receive the wages of faith and courage. It is one thing, tortured by long suffering for sins, to be cleansed and long purged by fire; another to have purged all sins by suffering. It is one thing, in fine, to be in suspense till the sentence of God at the day of judgment; another to be at once crowned by the Lord” (Letters 51[55]:20 [A.D. 253]).

Cyril of Jerusalem

“Then we make mention also of those who have already fallen asleep: first, the patriarchs, prophets, apostles, and martyrs, that through their prayers and supplications God would receive our petition; next, we make mention also of the holy fathers and bishops who have already fallen asleep, and, to put it simply, of all among us who have already fallen asleep, for we believe that it will be of very great benefit to the souls of those for whom the petition is carried up, while this holy and most solemn sacrifice is laid out” (Catechetical Lectures 23:5:9 [A.D. 350])."**

 

[jmcrae]

Where is the proof that any of us are Christians? Some believe that if they are born into a Christian family, they are a Christian! Are catholics Christians? Are Baptists? How about nondenoms?

The proof is in your spiritual ancestry. It’s much the same method you use to prove that a dog is the kind of dog that you say it is - papers, pedigrees, that go back to the original ancestor dog that was the first one of that kind of dog. (Or cat, or horse, or flower.) Just because it looks like that kind, on the surface, doesn’t necessarily mean that it is - you have to look at its history, where it came from.

The Catholic Church traces back to Jesus Christ through the Apostle St. Peter. The Greek Orthodox Church traces back to Jesus Christ through the Apostle St. Andrew.

The United Church of Canada traces back to George Pidgeon, in 1925. Before that, nothing - there is no visible trace back to 1900, never mind to 33 AD and Jesus Christ. The Seventh Day Adventists trace back to an article written in 1849 AD that influenced Ellen White to start up her own religion, with nothing before that.

 

[Xavierlives]

We were talking about the early Christians in the first centuries–what they believed, how they practiced, how they worshipped, Since there was no Bible for 400 years everything they believed was preserved through Sacred Tradition.

Catholics can show that everything we practice and believe has been in existence from the first centuries onward (sometimes even earlier.) Most Protestant traditions (such as “altar calls” or belief in the Rapture) show no evidence of practice in the early church. They sprang up relatively recently, from some fallible man’s non-authoritative personal interpretation of a particular Scripture verse.

(This re-visits the discussion we had a while ago regarding infant dedication. I had asked you to show me examples of infant dedications in the early church. It seems that it is a man-made tradition started, as far as I can tell, in the 20th century.)

Can you explain the illegitimate issue of the “altar call” for me? I really see it (and the rapture) as a non-issue, but somehow it is problem.

 

[jmcrae]

Can you explain the illegitimate issue of the “altar call” for me? I really see it (and the rapture) as a non-issue, but somehow it is problem.

The issue is, we have these people who say to us, “You can’t be a Christian unless everything you believe and do is exactly from the Bible. You can’t have the Mass, because the Mass is nowhere to be found in Scripture, and you can’t pray the Rosary because the Rosary can’t be found in Scripture,” and so on. We get the fingers pointed at us because these things that we do can’t be found in Scripture by people who apparently aren’t looking for them (every story of the Rosary comes from the Bible, but that “doesn’t count” for some reason).

And then they turn around and invent something called an “Altar Call” which is not only nowhere to be found in the Bible, but also (unlike the Mass, the Rosary, and other Catholic customs) nowhere to be found in the life of the Early Church.

They also accuse us of “inventing” doctrines such as* Theotokos*, Mary the Mother of God, which is based on St. Ignatius’ interpretation of the Gospel of Luke (But that’s not good enough - if you’re Catholic, you aren’t allowed to believe anything that isn’t explicitly outlined in fabulous detail in the Scriptures, otherwise, “Bad Catholick, inventing doctrines of men!”) - and then out of whole cloth, with maybe one very vague verse of Scriptural support, they invent the doctrine of the Rapture.

 

[Xavierlives]

Now to give examples of early Christians who believed in purgatory:

"As the quotes below from the early Church Fathers show, purgatory has been part of the Christian faith from the very beginning.

Some imagine that the Catholic Church has an elaborate doctrine of purgatory worked out, but there are only three essential components of the doctrine: (1) that a purification after death exists, (2) that it involves some kind of pain, and (3) that the purification can be assisted by the prayers and offerings by the living to God. Other ideas, such that purgatory is a particular “place” in the afterlife or that it takes time to accomplish, are speculations rather than doctrines.

Good to know we can limit a discussion to these three points and anything else is speculation.

The Acts of Paul and Thecla

“And after the exhibition, Tryphaena again received her [Thecla]. For her daughter Falconilla had died, and said to her in a dream: ‘Mother, you shall have this stranger Thecla in my place, in order that she may pray concerning me, and that I may be transferred to the place of the righteous’” (Acts of Paul and Thecla [A.D. 160]).

So it is based on a dream?

Abercius

“The citizen of a prominent city, I erected this while I lived, that I might have a resting place for my body. Abercius is my name, a disciple of the chaste Shepherd who feeds his sheep on the mountains and in the fields, who has great eyes surveying everywhere, who taught me the faithful writings of life. Standing by, I, Abercius, ordered this to be inscribed: Truly, I was in my seventy-second year. May everyone who is in accord with this and who understands it pray for Abercius” (Epitaph of Abercius [A.D. 190]).

I’m not sure I understand how this works. You pray to God for the person in pergatory? To what end?

The Martyrdom of Perpetua and Felicity

“[T]hat very night, this was shown to me in a vision: I [Perpetua] saw Dinocrates going out from a gloomy place, where also there were several others, and he was parched and very thirsty, with a filthy countenance and pallid color, and the wound on his face which he had when he died. This Dinocrates had been my brother after the flesh, seven years of age, who died miserably with disease. . . . . . . . [And] he went away from the water to play joyously, after the manner of children, and I awoke. Then I understood that he was translated from the place of punishment” (The Martyrdom of Perpetua and Felicity 2:3–4 [A.D. 202]).

Tertullian

“We offer sacrifices for the dead on their birthday anniversaries [the date of death—birth into eternal life]” (The Crown 3:3 [A.D. 211]).

“A woman, after the death of her husband . . . prays for his soul and asks that he may, while waiting, find rest; and that he may share in the first resurrection. And each year, on the anniversary of his death, she offers the sacrifice” (Monogamy 10:1–2 [A.D. 216]).

While I don’t think the timeframe between death and resurrection is going to be a lengthy one, I find no fault in praying for rest, as I would pray my children have a restful night’s sleep.

Cyprian of Carthage

“The strength of the truly believing remains unshaken; and with those who fear and love God with their whole heart, their integrity continues steady and strong. For to adulterers even a time of repentance is granted by us, and peace * is given. Yet virginity is not therefore deficient in the Church, nor does the glorious design of continence languish through the sins of others. The Church, crowned with so many virgins, flourishes; and chastity and modesty preserve the tenor of their glory. Nor is the vigor of continence broken down because repentance and pardon are facilitated to the adulterer. It is one thing to stand for pardon, another thing to attain to glory; it is one thing, when cast into prison, not to go out thence until one has paid the uttermost farthing; another thing at once to receive the wages of faith and courage. It is one thing, tortured by long suffering for sins, to be cleansed and long purged by fire; another to have purged all sins by suffering. It is one thing, in fine, to be in suspense till the sentence of God at the day of judgment; another to be at once crowned by the Lord” (Letters 51[55]:20 [A.D. 253]). *

So the belief is Catholics go to purgatory as a punishment for their sins and only after being tortured by God for sufficient length of time they are released? Makes me even more thankful of Christ’s sacrifice for me.
PRmerger;6207896:

Cyril of Jerusalem

“Then we make mention also of those who have already fallen asleep: first, the patriarchs, prophets, apostles, and martyrs, that through their prayers and supplications God would receive our petition; next, we make mention also of the holy fathers and bishops who have already fallen asleep, and, to put it simply, of all among us who have already fallen asleep, for we believe that it will be of very great benefit to the souls of those for whom the petition is carried up, while this holy and most solemn sacrifice is laid out” (Catechetical Lectures 23:5:9 [A.D. 350])."

How does purgatory mesh with I Sam. 28:15?

 

[jmcrae]

Xavierlives:
Good to know we can limit a discussion to these three points and anything else is speculation.
Do you believe that anyone still capable of committing sins can enter into Heaven?

Do you believe that anyone alive on the earth, including someone who is about to die, is capable of committing sin?

How does it come about that they are able to commit sin while they are still alive, but when they arrive in Heaven they are no longer capable of committing sins?

So it is based on a dream?

No; it’s based on what the Jews always believed about the afterlife. The dream is just part of this specific incident - a soul who was in Purgatory appeared to someone in a dream to ask for help.

I’m not sure I understand how this works. You pray to God for the person in pergatory? To what end?

To speed them through it more quickly, since without anyone to pray for you, you will remain there until the Last Day, since you can do nothing for yourself, in Purgatory.

So the belief is Catholics go to purgatory as a punishment for their sins

Not “punishment,” no. Reparation.

“Punishment” is when you spank your kid for putting a baseball through your window. Jesus has taken the spanking for us, but He has not done the reparation for us. Reparation is when you take your kid’s allowance money to pay for the new window.

 

[Xavierlives]

The issue is, we have these people who say to us, “You can’t be a Christian unless everything you believe and do is exactly from the Bible. You can’t have the Mass, because the Mass is nowhere to be found in Scripture, and you can’t pray the Rosary because the Rosary can’t be found in Scripture,” and so on. We get the fingers pointed at us because these things that we do can’t be found in Scripture by people who apparently aren’t looking for them (every story of the Rosary comes from the Bible, but that “doesn’t count” for some reason).

Well this is where I guess I would disagree with “them.” I find no fault confessing to priest. I think you accomplish the purpose of repentance and if you do that with another person, I think it might be a pleasant experience. While I don’t think repetitive prayers are for me, if that brings you peace and a closeness with God, then I say wonderful. To be honest, I think tradition (and Tradition) might be a needed thing. My problem is legalism (the humor is that is coming from a lawyer).

And then they turn around and invent something called an “Altar Call” which is not only nowhere to be found in the Bible, but also (unlike the Mass, the Rosary, and other Catholic customs) nowhere to be found in the life of the Early Church.

They also accuse us of “inventing” doctrines such as* Theotokos*, Mary the Mother of God, which is based on St. Ignatius’ interpretation of the Gospel of Luke (But that’s not good enough - if you’re Catholic, you aren’t allowed to believe anything that isn’t explicitly outlined in fabulous detail in the Scriptures, otherwise, “Bad Catholick, inventing doctrines of men!”) - and then out of whole cloth, with maybe one very vague verse of Scriptural support, they invent the doctrine of the Rapture.

Hmm… Mary the Mother of God and Rapture. So all we need to do is bring the two together and we will see unity.

Wow… it does sound like a book title!

Mary the Mother of God and Rapture: the process of unifying the Catholic Church with Fundamentalism.

Now, back to the subject. I think more than anything is the Rapture is a novelty idea. It will not make or break any protestant’s faith. You aren’t going to see people say, “I’m leaving this church because you don’t believe in the rapture!” I think you will find more protestants believing the end times are near. Personally, I think judgment is near. Whether this judgment is the last? I don’t know. I think the problem many Christians have is they have come to expect a hand of protection to held over them while the world is being judged. Some of this is scriptural.

 

[Guyonthestreet]

I had been visiting quite a few churchs.

I’ve recently given up on attending any church building.

It may be a temporary state of affairs.

I continue to talk to God, and hope He doesn’t give up on me.