How do non-denominational Christians pick a church?

[benedictus2]

Sounds rather traumatic; did you need any counseling?Do we realy know what a “true” worship service is? Did you realize that you can kneel before your Lord in your own home?

Yes, we do that too. But it is so much better when you can kneel before His Very Real Presence.

 

[benedictus2]

]

Do you believe that Jesus can show up at a contemporary Christian music concert? Is it really possible to worship Our God outside the four walls of the church building? How about a group like Selah, Chris Tomlin, Chris Rice, or maybe Michael W. Smith? Worshipping God can be acomplished by oneself in their car, or at work:thumbsup:

That is true. We encounter God everywhere if we but open our eyes.

But real worship is different. It is setting aside a time for God (Keep Holy the Sabbath Day) and if you look at Israel, you can see there liturgy - liturgical worship.

 

[benedictus2]

Right! I’m pretty sure the truth will be revealed in its glory and Bible study will not be necessary. Which leaves… worship!

And we are already living that glory now (although our mortal eyes are incapable of beholding that glory… it is called the Mass.

 

[Hisalone]

Do you believe that God is the one that determines how he is to be worshiped, or do you believe it is up to the conscience of the individual believer? For Catholics, it is the former. It’s kind of like this: Imagine that I have invited you over for dinner, and while you are eating, I keep telling you what sort of food you like. I don’t ever ask you what you would like, and if you try to tell me, I don’t listen. I keep insisting that you like the food I am putting on your plate, because it pleases me.

Now imagine if you were God, and I kept telling you how you liked to be worshiped. That’s how Catholics feel about “choosing a church” among denominations. It seems as though non-Catholics are choosing what fits them, and then assuming that because they are happy, or feel good, or feel as though they are worshiping, that God is therefore happy and feels good and feels as though he is being worshiped. It seems as though people are ascribing their own feelings about worship to God. And Catholics believe that our own feelings cannot always be trusted. God has given us revealed Truth, and we can choose to accept it, but it does not come from our own hearts. It comes from God’s word, Jesus Christ.

So for Catholics, the question isn’t whether we can somehow feel as though we can praise God outside of the four walls of a church (we can feel this), or whether we can pray and sing to him in our cars (we can and do, and this is good). The question is, has God prescribed a specific way to worship him. And the answer, to us, is yes. In the Old Testament/Covenant, he described how the temple was to be built and worship was to take place. In the New Testament/Covenant he established the Mass at the last supper and built his Church to baptize, forgive sins, and celebrate the Mass until he comes.

We don’t feel this is optional. We haven’t done this because we feel it is the best way to worship God. Many Catholics would probably rather sing Michael W. Smith songs than receive Holy Communion, if they had a choice. But it isn’t up to us. God has told us what sort of “food” he likes at “dinner.” He has told us how he is to be lifted up and how we are to be saved. He has given us the definition of worshiping in spirit and in truth, and that is the Sacrifice of the Mass. This is why we cannot choose another Church.

We will worsip God in spirit and in truth.
True worship is when Gods Spirit in us reaches out and exalts and glorifies Him.Chris Tomlin and Michael W Smith do very well at this. Gods presence is what we seek in worship to enter the very presence of God. Enter His gates with thanksgiving and enter His courts with praise. The worship of God that we give is what He has prescribed, I cant remember the quote well but John Dunne once said that God uses us as a vessel that so that it is He who worsships Him through us.
The Spirit and presence of God who I experienced visiting and living within a Trappist monastary is present when I go to a Friday night prayer metting at my pastors house.

If you believe there is no difference between singing Michael W Smiths worship songs and worshipping with those songs then you really dont know.

 

[Xavierlives]

That is true. We encounter God everywhere if we but open our eyes.

But real worship is different. It is setting aside a time for God (Keep Holy the Sabbath Day) and if you look at Israel, you can see there liturgy - liturgical worship.

Really? What exactly are you saying? Such a minor blip about “keep holy the sabbath” is so vague and opens so many other points.

 

[jmcrae]

Really? What exactly are you saying?

Read the Book of Leviticus. The people of Israel didn’t stay home on the Sabbath. They engaged in communal, liturgical, sacrificial worship. God demanded of them a specific liturgy - He didn’t say, "Okay, randomly clump together in groups and do whatever makes you feel “worshipful” - He actually gave them a Liturgy to follow. Just as Christ gave the Mass to the Church.

Such a minor blip about “keep holy the sabbath” is so vague and opens so many other points.

It’s only “vague” if you only read the one verse, and don’t read through the whole thing.

 

[PRmerger]

It’s only “vague” if you only read the one verse, and don’t read through the whole thing.

Indeed.

And it’s only “vague” if you ignore the entire book of Revelation, which describes–in quite exquisite detail–the Marriage Feast of the Lamb, that is, the Divine Liturgy.

And, it’s only “vague” if you ignore the entire 2000 year history of Christian worship, ignoring the writings of those who sat at the feet of the apostles, and those who sat at their feet, and those who sat at their feet, and…etc etc etc

 

[Xavierlives]

Read the Book of Leviticus. The people of Israel didn’t stay home on the Sabbath. They engaged in communal, liturgical, sacrificial worship. God demanded of them a specific liturgy - He didn’t say, "Okay, randomly clump together in groups and do whatever makes you feel “worshipful” - He actually gave them a Liturgy to follow. Just as Christ gave the Mass to the Church.

It’s only “vague” if you only read the one verse, and don’t read through the whole thing.

Its only vague if you don’t give scripture (which was the case). I was asking for clarification.

 

[benedictus2]

We will worsip God in spirit and in truth.
True worship is when Gods Spirit in us reaches out and exalts and glorifies Him.Chris Tomlin and Michael W Smith do very well at this. Gods presence is what we seek in worship to enter the very presence of God. Enter His gates with thanksgiving and enter His courts with praise.** The worship of God that we give is what He has prescribed**, I cant remember the quote well but John Dunne once said that God uses us as a vessel that so that it is He who worsships Him through us.
The Spirit and presence of God who I experienced visiting and living within a Trappist monastary is present when I go to a Friday night prayer metting at my pastors house.

If you believe there is no difference between singing Michael W Smiths worship songs and worshipping with those songs then you really dont know.

Okay, What is the way of Worship that God prescribed? How do you know that this is the way of worship that God prescribed.?

 

[benedictus2]

Its only vague if you don’t give scripture (which was the case). I was asking for clarification.

And JMCrae did as you asked. She said read the book of leviticus.

By the way thanks JMCrae and PrMerger for answering on my behalf. Good posts.

 

[PRmerger]

And JMCrae did as you asked. She said read the book of leviticus.

By the way thanks JMCrae and PrMerger for answering on my behalf. Good posts.

:tiphat:

 

[graceandglory]

Do you believe that God is the one that determines how he is to be worshiped, or do you believe it is up to the conscience of the individual believer? For Catholics, it is the former. It’s kind of like this: Imagine that I have invited you over for dinner, and while you are eating, I keep telling you what sort of food you like. I don’t ever ask you what you would like, and if you try to tell me, I don’t listen. I keep insisting that you like the food I am putting on your plate, because it pleases me.

Now imagine if you were God, and I kept telling you how you liked to be worshiped. That’s how Catholics feel about “choosing a church” among denominations. It seems as though non-Catholics are choosing what fits them, and then assuming that because they are happy, or feel good, or feel as though they are worshiping, that God is therefore happy and feels good and feels as though he is being worshiped. It seems as though people are ascribing their own feelings about worship to God. And Catholics believe that our own feelings cannot always be trusted. God has given us revealed Truth, and we can choose to accept it, but it does not come from our own hearts. It comes from God’s word, Jesus Christ.

**So for Catholics, the question isn’t whether we can somehow feel as though we can praise God outside of the four walls of a church (we can feel this), or whether we can pray and sing to him in our cars (we can and do, and this is good). The question is, has God prescribed a specific way to worship him. And the answer, to us, is yes. In the Old Testament/Covenant, he described how the temple was to be built and worship was to take place. In the New Testament/Covenant he established the Mass at the last supper and built his Church to baptize, forgive sins, and celebrate the Mass until he comes. **

We don’t feel this is optional. We haven’t done this because we feel it is the best way to worship God. Many Catholics would probably rather sing Michael W. Smith songs than receive Holy Communion, if they had a choice. But it isn’t up to us. God has told us what sort of “food” he likes at “dinner.” He has told us how he is to be lifted up and how we are to be saved. He has given us the definition of worshiping in spirit and in truth, and that is the Sacrifice of the Mass. This is why we cannot choose another Church.

Son of Monica,
you answered this so much better than I would have.
It is what I was thinking just not sure how to put into words.

I have been in worship/music ministry and I learned it is very subjective. On a good day, we KNEW we could pick certain worship choruses that will prompt specific responses from the people in the Church. If we picked great songs, we would have one reaction, if we picked “lousy” boring songs, we wouldn’t get the same response. If people raise their hands more does that mean Jesus is present? If we weren’t on the mark that day, was Jesus ABSENT?

How do you KNOW Jesus is present? How can you measure that Jesus is present at a worship concert? I know also that non-believers raise their hands and Christian concerts. The music moves them to. People do the same at secular concerts.

In the 80s in the state of Oregon there was an Eastern cult of New Age Followers of the Baghwan Shree Rashneesh. The followers who were seen on TV camera were enraptured with him and when they played music the response looked just like some of the evangelical worship concerts I’ve been to.

Son of Monica, I love your analogy of serving God what He asked for.

I would be glad to pray for you as you enter the Church.

 

[graceandglory]

If you believe there is no difference between singing Michael W Smiths worship songs and worshipping with those songs then you really dont know.

I do know. And I have experienced it. And it’s good. But it is not sufficient. Give it 20 yrs, His Alone, and you will see. The fruits of this will pan out. No matter how great a concert church you go to. My former church had a recording studio, does yours?

Kick it up a notch and worship (with MWS songs) in front of the Blessed Sacrament – JESUS in the FLESH, right after Communion…

Talk about the closest thing to heaven on earth.
Please watch, 1beleevr.

“You are my God”
youtube.com/watch?v=aJ4tEFPuhYI&feature=related

When the music fades
And all is stripped away
And I simply come
Longing just to bring
Something that’s of worth
That will bless your heart

I’ll bring You more than a song
For a song in itself
Is not what You have required
You search much deeper within
Through the ways things appear
You’re looking into my heart
**
I’m coming back to the heart of worship
And it’s all about You
All about You, Jesus
I’m sorry Lord for the thing I’ve made it
When it’s all about You
It’s all about You Jesus**

King of endless worth
No one could express
How much You deserve
Though I’m weak and poor
All I have is Yours
Every single breath

I’ll bring You more than just a song
For a song in itself
Is not what You have required
You search much deeper within
Through the way things appear
You’re looking into my heart

I’m coming back to the heart of worship
And it’s all about You
All about You, Jesus
I’m sorry Lord for the thing I’ve made it
When it’s all about You
It’s all about You Jesus
youtube.com/watch?v=HeAwBmb_x28

It’s not about me. It is all about Jesus.
:bowdown:

I’m sorry Jesus that I left you, and your precious Body and Blood in the Eucharist,
for better “worship.” :imsorry:

 

[Xavierlives]

This whole weird “vague” thing started with me saying:

Really? What exactly are you saying? Such a minor blip about “keep holy the sabbath” is so vague and opens so many other points.

Which drew the response that I basically needed read the book of Leviticus to understand. It would only be vague if I don’t read the entire thing:

Read the Book of Leviticus. The people of Israel didn’t stay home on the Sabbath. They engaged in communal, liturgical, sacrificial worship. God demanded of them a specific liturgy - He didn’t say, "Okay, randomly clump together in groups and do whatever makes you feel “worshipful” - He actually gave them a Liturgy to follow. Just as Christ gave the Mass to the Church.

It’s only “vague” if you only read the one verse, and don’t read through the whole thing.

Then I am told it is vague unless I’ve ignored Revelation and basically all Cathlolic tradition as well as all the writings contained in the Bible:

Indeed.

And it’s only “vague” if you ignore the entire book of Revelation, which describes–in quite exquisite detail–the Marriage Feast of the Lamb, that is, the Divine Liturgy.

And, it’s only “vague” if you ignore the entire 2000 year history of Christian worship, ignoring the writings of those who sat at the feet of the apostles, and those who sat at their feet, and those who sat at their feet, and…etc etc etc

This was all as a response to my original question about clarification about keeping the sabbath Holy.

So… keeping the sabbath Holy can only be answered by reading the entire Bible and studying 2000 years of Catholic Tradition. Makes sense… I guess?

 

[benedictus2]

This whole weird “vague” thing started with me saying:

Which drew the response that I basically needed read the book of Leviticus to understand. It would only be vague if I don’t read the entire thing:

Then I am told it is vague unless I’ve ignored Revelation and basically all Cathlolic tradition as well as all the writings contained in the Bible:

This was all as a response to my original question about clarification about keeping the sabbath Holy.

So… keeping the sabbath Holy can only be answered by reading the entire Bible and studying 2000 years of Catholic Tradition. Makes sense… I guess?

In my post I mentioned keeping the Sabbath Holy and I also mentioned liturgy. That is why PrMergers and JMCrae’s points make sense because part of the keeping the Sabbath Holy was worship and worship for the Israelite means liturgy.

I suppose we all thought you would make this kind connections.

 

[Xavierlives]

In my post I mentioned keeping the Sabbath Holy and I also mentioned liturgy. That is why PrMergers and JMCrae’s points make sense because part of the keeping the Sabbath Holy was worship and worship for the Israelite means liturgy.

I suppose we all thought you would make this kind connections.

Well, that goes back to my point of seeking clarification for what was meant. The Pharisees took the sabbath to the extreme, establishing a distance which someone could walk. This is obviously part of their practice but not involved in liturgy. The reason the Pharisees wanted to kill Jesus was for healing someone on the sabbath. This isn’t part of any liturgy. It circles around “keeping it holy” but not any practical worship. So, I was trying to figure out what exactly was being postulated. Then when the response was Leviticus and Revelation plus every other book in the Bible, I was stumped as to how any of their responses to my vagueness question did anything other than offer more vagueness.

 

[jmcrae]

Well, that goes back to my point of seeking clarification for what was meant. The Pharisees took the sabbath to the extreme, establishing a distance which someone could walk. This is obviously part of their practice but not involved in liturgy. The reason the Pharisees wanted to kill Jesus was for healing someone on the sabbath. This isn’t part of any liturgy. It circles around “keeping it holy” but not any practical worship. So, I was trying to figure out what exactly was being postulated. Then when the response was Leviticus and Revelation plus every other book in the Bible, I was stumped as to how any of their responses to my vagueness question did anything other than offer more vagueness.

No. The Book of Leviticus describes in detail the Liturgy of the Covenant of Moses. The Book of Revelation is a highly stylized rendering of the Liturgy of the Covenant of Jesus Christ - the Mass. If you attend a Sunday Mass directly after reading through the Book of Revelation, the parallels will strike you quite forcefully - the incense, the chanting of “Holy, Holy, Holy” and so on.

 

[1beleevr]

Okay, What is the way of Worship that God prescribed? How do you know that this is the way of worship that God prescribed.?

]

Let us also remember that when we speak of worship, it is not always about music! I believe that EVERYTHING we do, which glorifies the name of God; whether it be serving others in His Name, witnessing, evangelizing, feeding the poor, etc., is worship:thumbsup:

 

[jmcrae]

]

Let us also remember that when we speak of worship, it is not always about music! I believe that EVERYTHING we do, which glorifies the name of God; whether it be serving others in His Name, witnessing, evangelizing, feeding the poor, etc., is worship:thumbsup:

I think you are still confusing “worship” with “praise.” We can praise God in many ways, and in any place.

“Worship” is what takes place when a group of people gather together in a holy place with a priest, and the priest offers their sacrifice to their God. There can be singing, praying, and Scripture reading there, as well, but the actual “worship” is the offering of the sacrifice.

 

[tweetymom]

]

Let us also remember that when we speak of worship, it is not always about music! I believe that EVERYTHING we do, which glorifies the name of God; whether it be serving others in His Name, witnessing, evangelizing, feeding the poor, etc., is worship:thumbsup:

You certainally have that right. We were called upon yesterday to do something that perhaps saved a womans life and in the name of Jesus we did it. even tho we had other plans for the day. God Bless