How do non-denominational Christians pick a church?

[jmcrae]

]

Have you read 1Samuel 15:22, and Psalms 50? God loves obedience, and desires it over sacrifice!

But not “instead of.” When God commands that we give a sacrifice (such as the Sacrifice of the Mass) it is “obedience” (which God likes) to participate in that Sacrifice.

I know that Paul tells us that we are to offer ourselves as “living” sacrifices to God, but I believe this means surrendering your will to Him and doing His!

I agree with this.

Which Commandment are you speaking of, anyway?

The commandment that Christ gave to the Apostles, “Do this in anoemnesis of Me.”

Are you jmcrae able to obey the second greatest Commandment, to love others as yourself, without any exceptions?

Would my failure to succeed at this 100% of the time be a good reason not to follow any of Christ’s other commandments? If I can’t do one thing perfectly, does it mean that I shouldn’t even try to do the easier things?

 

[jmcrae]

romans 14 answers this:

2One man’s faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables.

5One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind

14As one who is in the Lord Jesus, I am fully convinced that no food is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for him it is unclean

These don’t entail contradictions in doctrine; they are simply a diversity of practice. One person stands; another person kneels - neither is “right” or “wrong” unless the reasons behind it are either disobedient or heretical.

so

4Who are you to judge someone else’s servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.**
13Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another.**

… but live in fear of the Judgment to come." Don’t forget the last part of that sentence.

**17For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, 18because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men. **

22So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the man who does not condemn himself by what he approves

Again, he was talking about what people eat and drink; he was not talking about right doctrine. Elsewhere, he condemns those who promote a false doctrine. and calls them “anti-Christs.”

 

[PRmerger]

]

You know, when we were talking about divorce and remarriage, and how the catholic church could annul marriages as if they never happened?

That shows a deficiency of understanding of annulments.

[SIGN1]No marriage can be annulled by the Catholic Church, 1beleevr.[/SIGN1] We do not have that power. Only death can end a marriage.

What the CC states, in a declaration of nullity, is that a sacramental marriage *never *existed. Thus, if it was a marriage, it cannot be annulled.

 

[graceandglory]

]

Actually, catholics have named it mass; not God! I believe that He enjoys when His people(yes that would include us noncatholics) come together in fellowship and worship! It does not have to be mass, or catholic sevice!

1beleevr,

You can’t back this opinion up though, with scripture. This is teachings of man.

 

[graceandglory]

]

just saying that there is no wrong way to worship Him, as long as your worship is sincere!

Not if you’re sincerely wrong.

Do Muslims worship correctly? Do Mormons worship correctly? How about Hindus?
Who is to say what is correct worship?

Scripture say we are to worship in spirit and truth.

Who defines TRUTH for you 1beleevr?

 

[tweetymom]

]

You know, when we were talking about divorce and remarriage, and how the catholic church could annul marriages as if they never happened?

Oh ok I see, thanks I do not understnd that either,

 

[1beleevr]

1beleevr,

You can’t back this opinion up though, with scripture. This is teachings of man.

It seems that we are t an impasse; as you cannot find scriptural basis for mass, either! I mean other than what the apostles supposedly passed down

 

[1beleevr]

Not if you’re sincerely wrong.

Do Muslims worship correctly? Do Mormons worship correctly? How about Hindus?
Who is to say what is correct worship?

Scripture say we are to worship in spirit and truth.

Who defines TRUTH for you 1beleevr?

]

But, you see, man CANNOT judge another’s worship, not the sincerity of it! The problem is, we as humans, tend to compare others worship against our own, or what we think their’s should be! And just because you may have had less than a positive experience with CCM and concerts, doesn’t mean that every church that uses this type of music in worship is wrong, or having a concert! Do you believe that a group of believers, sitting around a campfire singing,“How Great is Our God,” acapella, is capable of worshipping their God? And I don’t know if Mormons, Muslims,or Hindus are worshipping correctly! Heck, I don’t even know for sure, if catholics worship,“correctly,” or sincerely!

 

[benedictus2]

It seems that we are t an impasse; as you cannot find scriptural basis for mass, either! I mean other than what the apostles supposedly passed down

Well, the error without your argument is that Scripture (before it was written) was also just tradition which the apostles passed down.

As a matter of fact, how the canon was established was that the books that were accepted to form part of the Bible was measured against Tradition - that which the apostles passed down.

Also, if you worship on Sunday, then that means you are not going by Scripture because worship on Sabbath meant the 7th day of the week which is Saturday. We only came to worship on Sunday because it is what the apostles did… what the apostles passed down.

 

[graceandglory]

]And just because you may have had less than a positive experience with CCM and concerts, !

For the record, I only had positive experiences with CCM.
BUT
My experience still does not define truth.

All truth is God’s truth, insofar as it is true.
Blaise Pascal

 

[benedictus2]

]
But, you see, man CANNOT judge another’s worship, not the sincerity of it!

True, but it is not so much the sincerity that is in question but whether it is in accord with how God wanted to be worshipped.

If we are sincere about our belief in the Trinity as revealed in the Scripture we will follow His revelation as revealed to His Church.

How were are to worship is set out in the Bible. The Mass is a fulfillment of the Todah which which is the thanksgiving worship of Israel.

The Mass is actually patterned after the heavenly liturgy which John saw in the book of revelations. If you read Scripture, initially they would go to the synagogues for the proclamation of Scripture then on Sunday they would gather for the breaking of the bread.

When they were expelled by the Jews from the synagogue, they then combined the proclamation / reading of the Word of God and the breaking of the bread on the same day - Sunday. And this is how the early Christians worshipped. This is the Mass. For 1500 years this is how ALL Christians worshipped.

 

[graceandglory]

]

**And I don’t know if Mormons, Muslims,or Hindus are worshipping correctly! **!

Thank you for that honest answer.

Here you are defending TRUTH, without a grounding in the truth yourself.

If I were your protestant mom or pastor, I would tell you to get grounded in your own faith.
You really need need to know what you believe and why you believe it. **Otherwise, it sounds like you just believe in music. ** (I know that isn’t true, but it is what you are defending.) And that would be as bad as worshiping a false idol. What makes your “worship” any different than Baal worship of the Old Testament?

This thread title is “How do non-denoms pick a church?”
For many years I too picked a church based on the music.
I got good music, but did not receive the truth.

 

[joe370]

]

God does not REQUIRE me to go to mass, nor does He tell me how to worship Him! Psalms 100:1 says,“Make a joyful noise unto the Lord!” Good worship is that which pleases our God! So your post was another pat catholic answer!

Believer, I am not gonna claim that you are wrong; I don’t have that right or authority. However, I would like to ask you a few simple questions:

Does God require me to go to your worship service, or the worship service of any church for that matter, as He did in the early church long before Constantine legalized Christianity? If not, then why do I need to even attend a church service?

Does it even matter which church we attend to worship our creator, like it did for the first 400 years of Christianity?

Could I start a church tomorrow (like many have done in the past) - and set the guidelines for my congregation, on how they are to worship God?

What if my way of worshiping God in my new assembly of believers differs from the way Jesus’ church of the first 300 years of Christianity worshiped God; does that NOT matter?

Surely the church (comprised of both teachers and pupils) - built by God, that preceded the 4th century, was guided by the holy spirit and therefore provided all Christians (there were no denominations back then) - with the bone-fide paradigm on how later Christians should worship God; wouldn’t you agree?

Does God reject the Catholic way of worshiping God? If so, where in the bible is this stated?

The CC has been worshiping God in the same way since the 1st century; if they are doing it wrong now, then they were doing it wrong then; were they doing it wrong then?

Did it take hundreds and hundreds of years for God to finally pass on to your church leadership, or any Protestant church for that matter, the correct way to worship God?

If you cannot prove that the members of the CC are wrong in the way that they worship God, and you cannot prove that the members of your church are right in the way that they worship God, then like you said, we are at an impasse.

Is there any chance that the answer to our dilemma could be found in the church built by God, of the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th century, again, long before the Roman Empire reputedly injected into the pedigree of Jesus’ established church, a bunch of heretical nonsense?

 

[PRmerger]

]

You are obviously somewhat deluded; I have never told God how He should be worshipped, just saying that there is no wrong way to worship Him, as long as your worship is sincere!

Clearly, sincerity is required for worship, but it is not enough.

It’s not enough in other areas of life, so why would sincerity be all that’s necessary in religion? Is it sufficient for your accountant to be sincere, or do you also want him to do his job correctly? Is it sufficient that your doctor be sincere?

 

[Xavierlives]

Thank you for that honest answer.

Here you are defending TRUTH, without a grounding in the truth yourself.

If I were your protestant mom or pastor, I would tell you to get grounded in your own faith.
You really need need to know what you believe and why you believe it. **Otherwise, it sounds like you just believe in music. ** (I know that isn’t true, but it is what you are defending.) And that would be as bad as worshiping a false idol. What makes your “worship” any different than Baal worship of the Old Testament?

This thread title is “How do non-denoms pick a church?”
For many years I too picked a church based on the music.
I got good music, but did not receive the truth.

Well, I don’t think I pick a church based on the music but it is always nice when Phillips, Craig, and Dean stop by to lead the music.

 

[Xavierlives]

Believer, I am not gonna claim that you are wrong; I don’t have that right or authority. However, I would like to ask you a few simple questions:

Does God require me to go to your worship service, or the worship service of any church for that matter, as He did in the early church long before Constantine legalized Christianity? If not, then why do I need to even attend a church service?

Does it even matter which church we attend to worship our creator, like it did for the first 400 years of Christianity?

Could I start a church tomorrow (like many have done in the past) - and set the guidelines for my congregation, on how they are to worship God?

What if my way of worshiping God in my new assembly of believers differs from the way Jesus’ church of the first 300 years of Christianity worshiped God; does that NOT matter?

Surely the church (comprised of both teachers and pupils) - built by God, that preceded the 4th century, was guided by the holy spirit and therefore provided all Christians (there were no denominations back then) - with the bone-fide paradigm on how later Christians should worship God; wouldn’t you agree?

Does God reject the Catholic way of worshiping God? If so, where in the bible is this stated?

The CC has been worshiping God in the same way since the 1st century; if they are doing it wrong now, then they were doing it wrong then; were they doing it wrong then?

Did it take hundreds and hundreds of years for God to finally pass on to your church leadership, or any Protestant church for that matter, the correct way to worship God?

If you cannot prove that the members of the CC are wrong in the way that they worship God, and you cannot prove that the members of your church are right in the way that they worship God, then like you said, we are at an impasse.

Is there any chance that the answer to our dilemma could be found in the church built by God, of the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th century, again, long before the Roman Empire reputedly injected into the pedigree of Jesus’ established church, a bunch of heretical nonsense?

Hmm… early worship was simply calling upon the name of the Lord. Genesis 4:26 says
And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enos: then began men to call upon the name of the LORD.
Then Genesis 24 says
26Then the man bowed down and worshiped the LORD, 27saying, “Praise be to the LORD, the God of my master Abraham, who has not abandoned his kindness and faithfulness to my master. As for me, the LORD has led me on the journey to the house of my master’s relatives.”
(I’ll cut to the chase and jump straight to the Book of John). Then we learn:
23Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth."

So. You are saying there is but one worship? or a Genesis to Revelation worship?

 

[SonofMonica]

I have been in worship/music ministry and I learned it is very subjective. On a good day, we KNEW we could pick certain worship choruses that will prompt specific responses from the people in the Church. If we picked great songs, we would have one reaction, if we picked “lousy” boring songs, we wouldn’t get the same response. If people raise their hands more does that mean Jesus is present? If we weren’t on the mark that day, was Jesus ABSENT?

How do you KNOW Jesus is present? How can you measure that Jesus is present at a worship concert? I know also that non-believers raise their hands and Christian concerts. The music moves them to. People do the same at secular concerts.

…

Son of Monica, I love your analogy of serving God what He asked for.

I would be glad to pray for you as you enter the Church.

I, too, was involved in leading worship and playing guitar as a non-Catholic. That “behind the scenes” experience is one of the things that led me to the Catholic Church. Let me share with you an anecdote, a true one, from my experience, which colors my outlook.

Let me set the stage: I played guitar a few times in the house praise band for a congregation called “The Grove,” which, at the time, was a non-self-supporting off-shoot of a local non-denominational church. The Grove met on Sunday nights, and largely catered to 20-somethings, single or newly married or in college. The worship leader had a degree in music, and the service was probably 75% music (all alternative-rock style a la Hillsong), pausing only briefly for a sermon (‘message’), which usually featured a beginning movie clip from a popular movie like Remember the Titans or Forrest Gump, some Bible verse(s), and a talk from a 30-something newly married pastor (button-up shirt, no tie) who tried to tie together the movie clip, the Bible verse(s), and his married life into a coherent message. The praise band was very, very good, and I felt honored to be invited and allowed to play guitar with them from time to time. We would practice a few times during the preceding week and on Sunday afternoons before the Sunday night service, and we were required to be expertly polished–the worship leader was very demanding, technically. We choreographed everything. I am not ashamed to say that we were good at what we were doing.

One Sunday night, a man came up to the worship leader after the service, and told him that during a specific part of a specific song, the man felt the Spirit of God move. The worship leader turned to the man and stated very matter-of-factly, “No, you felt the bass line kick in.” It was at that point that I began to realize what we were selling…

I began to consider the advertisements for the weekly services: “Come and experience true worship,” they would read. I began to realize that the reason that the worship leader was so demanding was that we were emotionally manipulating people. And when I asked the worship leader about it, he was up-front with it, and not ashamed at all. Why? Well, he viewed it as his calling and his job to make people “experience true worship.” He truly felt as though manipulating guitar parts and bass lines and drum beats in order to evoke emotional responses in people was okay, because it made them think about God. He knew the emotional rush that people felt was not the spirit of God, as he admitted to the man that one Sunday night, but that was okay, because the man “experienced worship” in his heart.

Around the same time, a close friend of mine (who also had experience as a worship leader and guitar player) began to question what was happening at these services. He wondered aloud, if the Spirit of God is truly present, and is the one causing all these people to sway and raise their hands, then why am I able to attend these services and remain unaffected? I told him that I felt the same way, and that I suspected it had something to do with being to technically involved with the worship planning. Because I was leading worship, I must be truly focused on creating the worship experience in others–that’s why I didn’t feel it. But then why wasn’t I able to worship when I was standing out in the crowd, not playing guitar?

I began to question the very concept of worship that was being fed to me. Is worship something that was made for us to experience, or something that was made for God to experience? I have begun to realize that singing songs of praise to God is wonderful, and he desires it–it orients us toward him, and it gives praise where praise is due. But it is not worship–worship is something else: it is sacrifice to the satisfaction of Almighty God.

This is why, after practicing with the praise band, my friend and I were both able to attend praise and worship and remain unaffected by the Spirit of God that was supposedly moving. For true worship to take place, God must be satisfied, not me. But what am I to do? The best works that I can do are like filthy rags.

Well, the good news is that God has taken care of this! At every Mass, the Church offers God the only form of worship that has ever satisfied God–the sacrifice of his only Son, Jesus Christ. During each celebration/reception of the Eucharist, we unite ourselves, physically and spiritually, truly and really, corporeally and substantially, with the one salvific act of Jesus’s death at Calvary–together as one living sacrifice we who share in Christ’s sacrifice are made truly acceptable unto God. And by participating in his death, we are given the glorious reward of participating in his resurrection–we are given the gift of eternal life!

Thank you for your prayers–I really need them, because apart from God and the prayers of his Church, I am truly a distorted picture of what God has planned for me.

 

[PRmerger]

I, too, was involved in leading worship and playing guitar as a non-Catholic. That “behind the scenes” experience is one of the things that led me to the Catholic Church. Let me share with you an anecdote, a true one, from my experience, which colors my outlook.

Thank you for sharing your journey with us, SonofMonica. I will, indeed, keep you in my prayers as we all journey towards the Truth.

 

[PRmerger]

Written by Catholic apologist John Martignoni:

[SIGN1]Q: Where in the Bible does it say anything about the Mass and the notion of it being a sacrifice? [/SIGN1]

A: Malachi 1:11, “For from the rising of the sun to its setting my name is great among the nations, and in every place incense is offered to my name, and a pure offering; for my name is great among the nations, says the Lord of hosts.”

When this passage from Malachi was written some 450 years before Christ, the Lord’s name was not great among the nations – the word “nations” referring to the Gentiles. The Gentiles were pagan and they worshipped numerous gods. Sacrifice was not being offered to the Lord God in all the nations. So, this ver se from Malachi is essentially a prophecy that refers to the time after Christ has risen from the dead and the Lord’s name was indeed made great among the nations through the spread of the Gospel.

Now, what does it say will be happening among the nations once the Lord’s name has been made great among them? It says from the rising of the sun to its setting incense is offered to the Lord’s name and a pure offering. (Most Catholics should be familiar with this verse since it is in the Eucharistic prayer – “From east to west a perfect offering is made.”)

Let’s look at that a bit more closely. First of all, this verse is referring to the worship of God, which is the context within which sacrifices, or offerings, are made to God in Scripture. Secondly, the offering spoken of here is twofold – an offering of incense and a “pure” offering. How many churches do you know of that offer incense at any of their worship services?

And what is this “pure offering” referring to? What is the only “pure” offering that has ever been made to God? The offering of His Son, Jesus Christ, on the cross at Calvary. In other words, this verse from Malachi is telling us that from the rising of the sun to its setting (all day long) some sort of worship service will be taking place among the nations (the Gentiles) in which they offer incense and the only pure offering that has ever been made – Jesus Christ.

What type of worship service do you know of that takes place in all the nations, all day long (every hour on the hour), where the sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the cross is continually offered to God? The Mass. Malachi 1:11 is a prophecy that perfectly describes what is happening at the Mass.

In the New Testament, Paul also very clearly describes the Mass as being a sacrifice when he links the “bread” and the “cup of blessing” to the sacrifices of Israel and to the practice of the Israelites eating the sacrifice that has been offered (1 Cor 10:16–18). Again, this is a description of the Mass where we participate in the body and blood of the sacrifice – Jesus Christ – by eating what has been sacrificed – Jesus Christ.

So, it is very clear, from Scripture, that the worship of God involves incense and a pure offering, or sacrifice. And, in New Testament and Old, we see the actions of the Mass described exactly as we experience them in the Catholic Church today. The Mass involves a sacrifice, the once for all – all time and all people – sacrifice of Jesus Christ. I will continue this discussion in my next article by looking at the Letter to the Hebrews.

continued…

 

[PRmerger]

(written by John Martignoni)
Part 2:

Last week I talked about the Mass as sacrifice as seen in Malachi 1:11 and 1 Cor 10:16–18. This week I want to talk about how the Letter to the Hebrews reaffirms the notion of the Mass being a sacrifice.

Let’s look first at Hebrews 5:14, “Since then we have a great high priest Who has passed through the heavens, Jesus, the Son of God…” So, we see that Jesus is our high priest. What does the Bible tell us is the function of the high priest? Heb 5:1, “For every high priest chosen from among men is appointed to act on behalf of men in relation to God, to offer gifts and sacrifices for sins.”

Jesus is our high priest, and a high priest’s duty is to offer sacrifice for sin. Now, how long is Jesus to be a high priest? Heb 5:6, “Thou art a priest forever after the order of Melchizedek.” So, Jesus is our high priest forever, and the duty of the high priest is to offer sacrifice. So, if Jesus is going to be our high priest forever, then He needs some sacrifice to offer on our behalf forever, as it says in Heb 8:3, ”…hence it is necessary for this pr iest also to have something to offer.”

What does Jesus offer? Heb 9:12, “He entered once for all into the Holy Place taking not the blood of goats and calves, but His own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption.”

By reading Hebrews chapters 4 through 10, it becomes very apparent that the Old Covenant offerings of animals were merely a prelude to the pure offering (Malachi 1:11) of the New Covenant – Jesus Christ Himself. The offering of the high priests of old in the earthly Holy of Holies, was merely a dress rehearsal for the offering of the eternal high priest in the true Holy of Holies in Heaven.

Heb 9:24, “For Christ has en tered, not into a sanctuary made with hands, a copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf.” Jesus has entered Heaven and forever presents His once for all offering to the Father on our behalf. He is not, however, continually re–sacrificed, “for then He would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world” (Heb 9:26), rather He eternally presents His once for all sacrifice.

Every time a sinner turns to the Father for forgiveness, Christ, on our behalf, in effect says to the Father, “See, Father…see what I did for John. For Jim. For Sharon. For Megan. For Julia. For Bob.” He eternally offers His sacrifice on our behalf.

What happens at the Mass, is the priest, acting in the person of Christ, offers to the Father that same offering that Christ offers in Heaven. Heaven and earth are intertwined at the Mass and we actually enter into the offering of Christ’s blood that our High Priest eternally makes to the Father in the Holy Place, which is why the Mass is indeed a sacrifice.

One last thought, relating to the use of incense at Mass. In Revelation 5:8 and 8:4 we see golden bowls of incense, which represent the prayers of the saints, brought before the throne of God. If they’re using incense in the heavenly Mass, what’s wrong with using incense to symbolize the prayers of the saints, here on earth, especially since Malachi 1:11 says that it will be used in worship services? “For from the rising of the sun to its setting…in every place incense if offered to my name, and a pure offering.”

Source: his newsletter

To receive John Martignoni’s newsletters via email, all you have to do is go to www.biblechristiansociety.com and click on the “Newsletter” page to sign up. It will take you about 10 seconds.