How do non-denominational Christians pick a church?

[PRmerger]

PR I have been agreement that some things shouldnt be considered worship., human sacrifice etc. can you give some examples that I might consider worship that you dont.

That’s a very difficult question to answer, MRL. Firstly, as someone else on this thread stated (izoid??), you’re a hard one to figure out. Secondly, as there are now over 40,000 different Christian denominations/ways to worship, I really have no idea what it is you believe and how you worship at your services–there’s 40,000 different choices for me to consider!

Now, I can make a few generalizations (with the caveat that these are my views, not the official teaching of the CC).

I believe that most Protestant churches can have true worship at their services. However, I think that is “worship” with a small “w”. I believe that only the CC (and Orthodox Churches) have true Worship (capital “W”) through the Divine Liturgy.

The liturgy then is rightly seen as an exercise of the priestly office of Jesus Christ. It involves the presentation of man’s sanctification under the guise of signs perceptible by the senses and its accomplishment in ways appropriate to each of these signs. In it full public worship is performed by the Mystical Body of Jesus Christ, that is, by the Head and his members. From this it follows that every liturgical celebration, because it is an action of Christ the priest and of his Body which is the Church, is a sacred action surpassing all others.[SIGN] No other action of the Church can equal its efficacy by the same title and to the same degree. [/SIGN] -CCC 1070

 

[graceandglory]

I understand, and appreciate your apparent concern! And even though I have been a Christian for nigh on to 43 years, I realize that this walk is a lifelong experience; one that is fraught with many "dangers and toils, and fears! But because I have the peace of Christ, and the willingness to grow, my Saviour has brought me along slowly but surely! I’m still trying to figure out how we made a lateral move from worship and worship music to a weakness of, or lack of faith and knowledge of the TRUTH(whom I have known for those nearly 43 years!

When “looking for a church,” we should be looking for these things, according to Scripture.

It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers,
to prepare God’s people for works of service,
so that the body of Christ may be built up
until we all reach unity in the faith
and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature/B], attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.
**
Then we will no longer be infants,
tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming.
Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will in all things** grow up into him who is the Head, that is, Christ. **
Ephesians 4:11-15

Sounds like all these things are in the Catholic Church.

For him who has ears to hear…**

 

[graceandglory]

There are many things that we do for God. Worship (the gathering of the community to make a communal sacrifice) is only one of these many things. The things we do in His name and for His glory are called “good deeds.” (Feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, etc.)

I just gotta say in 1 beleevr’s defense, (since 1beleevr isn’t able to defend his own beliefs from Scripture) that if it’s Scriptural, it’s Catholic.

Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God—this is your spiritual act of worship. Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.

St. Paul’s letter to the Roman Christians
12:1-2

**
Haydock’s Catholic Commentary**
Ver. 1. With this chapter St. Paul begins his second part, in which he gives us most excellent lessons of morality, after which every Christian should aim to form his life, and thus resemble Jesus Christ and his saints. (Haydock) — That you present your bodies a living sacrifice. And how must this be done? says St. Chrysostom, hom. xx. Let the eye abstain from sinful looks and glances, and it is a sacrifice; the tongue from speaking ill, and it is a sacrifice, &c. — Your reasonable service, or worship,[1] from you; nothing being more reasonable, than for men to serve God with their souls and bodies, &c. (Witham)

Ver. 2. Take care, lest you imitate the practices of worldlings. **Let your heart, your ambition, carry you to heaven: ever despise those things which the world admires, that every one may see by your actions that you are not of the society of worldlings, and have neither regard nor friendship for them. **(Calmet) — Transform yourselves into new men, by the renewal of your mind, that you may discern on all occasions, what is most perfect, most pleasing and acceptable to God. (Bible de Vence)

My thoughts on Romans 12:1-2…As Catholic believers, we are focused on presenting our bodies as living sacrifices, we are focused on holiness. The Sants of the ages attest to this fact. They give us a picture of how to live Romans 12:1-2. Lent is a time when, as a community, we delve even deeper in to this thought, when we present our bodies as living sacrifices. Giving up things of this world is a Catholic concept, totally foreign to an evangelical protestant believer. They will hear of a Catholic abstaining from meat and mock it, calling it a dead work. Catholics live this biblical reality every day, all over the world.

 

[Xavierlives]

Since worship is something we do in groups, and not by ourselves (“Our” Father; not “My” Father) it would be better to phrase it that worship is between the interpretive community and its god, rather than the individual.

However, I happen to believe that God gave us the pattern of worship, and expects us to follow it, without making up our own rules.

The formerly blind man from John 9, worshipped Jesus alone.

 

[jmcrae]

I just gotta say in 1 beleevr’s defense, (since 1beleevr isn’t able to defend his own beliefs from Scripture) that if it’s Scriptural, it’s Catholic.

Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God—this is your spiritual act of worship.

Right - notice how “worship” is connected to “sacrifice.” In the sense that giving up our bodies to do the will of God is a sacrifice, it is also a kind of worship, as well.

However, I don’t think St. Paul would have said that anybody who does good deeds is automatically a Christian, and therefore doesn’t have to participate in the Sacraments in any way.

 

[PRmerger]

And I am a fallible man, just like the pope(fallible,)

You misunderstand the CC’s teaching on infallibility. Pope B16 is a fallible man, however, by virtue of his office he is infallible, when speaking on faith and morals.

You also must believe, if you believe in the Sacred Scriptures, [SIGN]that men can be infallible,[/SIGN] men like Peter, Paul, Matthew, Mark, etc etc etc.

that is; not worthy of being called Holy Father)

I assume you believe that only God can be called the Holy Father.

Do you object to calling St. Paul a “holy father”, 1beleevr?
What about to calling Abraham a “holy father”?

 

[Xavierlives]

You misunderstand the CC’s teaching on infallibility. Pope B16 is a fallible man, however, by virtue of his office he is infallible, when speaking on faith and morals.

You also must believe, if you believe in the Sacred Scriptures, [SIGN]that men can be infallible,[/SIGN] men like Peter, Paul, Matthew, Mark, etc etc etc.

I assume you believe that only God can be called the Holy Father.

Do you object to calling St. Paul a “holy father”, 1beleevr?
What about to calling Abraham a “holy father”?

Why are you arguing about titles? Jesus called us gods should we now validate the Mormons?

 

[PRmerger]

Why are you arguing about titles? Jesus called us gods should we now validate the Mormons?

I’m just responding to 1beleevr’s objection to calling our pope the Holy Father.

 

[MyRdmrLvs]

That’s a very difficult question to answer, MRL. Firstly, as someone else on this thread stated (izoid??), you’re a hard one to figure out. Secondly, as there are now over 40,000 different Christian denominations/ways to worship, I really have no idea what it is you believe and how you worship at your services–there’s 40,000 different choices for me to consider!

Now, I can make a few generalizations (with the caveat that these are my views, not the official teaching of the CC).

I believe that most Protestant churches can have true worship at their services. However, I think that is “worship” with a small “w”. I believe that only the CC (and Orthodox Churches) have true Worship (capital “W”) through the Divine Liturgy.

The liturgy then is rightly seen as an exercise of the priestly office of Jesus Christ. It involves the presentation of man’s sanctification under the guise of signs perceptible by the senses and its accomplishment in ways appropriate to each of these signs. In it full public worship is performed by the Mystical Body of Jesus Christ, that is, by the Head and his members. From this it follows that every liturgical celebration, because it is an action of Christ the priest and of his Body which is the Church, is a sacred action surpassing all others.[SIGN] No other action of the Church can equal its efficacy by the same title and to the same degree. [/SIGN] -CCC 1070

Why am I hard to figure out? I underestimated how sensitive you guys would be about something done by your church a few hundred years ago. I really didnt mean to offend anyone. I actually had a rather lengthy apology typed out and when I tried to post it the thread was locked! I had just made a post!
So it boils down to my paster and elders not being qualified to serve communion?

 

[Xavierlives]

Why am I hard to figure out? I underestimated how sensitive you guys would be about something done by your church a few hundred years ago. I really didnt mean to offend anyone. I actually had a rather lengthy apology typed out and when I tried to post it the thread was locked! I had just made a post!
So it boils down to my paster and elders not being qualified to serve communion?

This is something the Catholics and the Mormons share. They believe that there is a series of qualifying events that must occur before a person can receive communion. They both believe that the church official must be ordained to baptize. They tend to ignore a long list of people who followed Jesus during his time who do exactly as we do. The general response I have heard (from both camps) is that the finalized process was not completed until Christ’s resurrection, so even the thief on the cross who Jesus said, “Today you will be with me in Paradise” did not have the completed process and was not a Christian.

 

[graceandglory]

So it boils down to my paster and elders not being qualified to serve communion?

In a way, yes. Because they are PROTESTing (rebelling against) Christ’s Church, and want to do things their own way.

The can “serve” anything they want. They can call it whatever they want. It doesn’t make it valid.

 

[fbl9]

This is something the Catholics and the Mormons share. They believe that there is a series of qualifying events that must occur before a person can receive communion. They both believe that the church official must be ordained to baptize. They tend to ignore a long list of people who followed Jesus during his time who do exactly as we do. The general response I have heard (from both camps) is that the finalized process was not completed until Christ’s resurrection, so even the thief on the cross who Jesus said, “Today you will be with me in Paradise” did not have the completed process and was not a Christian.

You own private property yet scripture says all was held in common.yeah you sure are exactly like those in scripture.Ever time i hear the claim we are just like those; yet you never can back it up.
One has to be ordained to baptise? good luck defending that line.
You knew the heart of the theif on the cross? yeah right.
Never did He confess that Christ was Lord . Yet it is written one needs to make this confession.Are you going to make some kind of osas arguement from this?
You better get your long list out and double check who is on that list and find out where they ended up at.

 

[Xavierlives]

You own private property yet scripture says all was held in common.yeah you sure are exactly like those in scripture.Ever time i hear the claim we are just like those; yet you never can back it up.

I don’t even know what you are trying to say here.

One has to be ordained to baptise? good luck defending that line.

Any Catholic can baptize? I know any Morman can, but they believe they are ordained.

You knew the heart of the theif on the cross? yeah right.

Jesus did (and he said so in Luke 23:43).

Never did He confess that Christ was Lord . Yet it is written one needs to make this confession.Are you going to make some kind of osas arguement from this?

I don’t need to make the one saved always saved argument. There wasn’t much need for variation in his faith. He died.

You better get your long list out and double check who is on that list and find out where they ended up at.

I don’t keep a list. God does.

 

[Xavierlives]

In a way, yes. Because they are PROTESTing (rebelling against) Christ’s Church, and want to do things their own way.

The can “serve” anything they want. They can call it whatever they want. It doesn’t make it valid.

Well I doth protest your use of protest. You might want to look up the definition before you charge in and make a claim of rebellion.

 

[jmcrae]

Well I doth protest your use of protest. You might want to look up the definition before you charge in and make a claim of rebellion.

Actually, it was their ancestors who rebelled against the Church, and set up their own little system, which was completely disconnected in every way from the Apostolic lineage that comes down to us through the Pope. Without that Apostolic pedigree, there is no authority to do anything.

 

[Xavierlives]

Actually, it was their ancestors who rebelled against the Church, and set up their own little system, which was completely disconnected in every way from the Apostolic lineage that comes down to us through the Pope. Without that Apostolic pedigree, there is no authority to do anything.

I agree. We have no authority of man.

 

[jmcrae]

I agree. We have no authority of man.

And Christ’s authority has been literally cut off from you, so you can’t do anything legitimately.

 

[Xavierlives]

And Christ’s authority has been literally cut off from you, so you can’t do anything legitimately.

And to that I must solemnly declare that I dissent. Ooo… I guess I protest.

Did you want to protest now? I could say something in which you disagree.

 

[fbl9]

I don’t even know what you are trying to say here

You put out the claim to be just like those of past and the only written record of what those of the past did is in scripture…and it is written that those of the past held no private property …so if you are like those of the past why do you hold private poperty?

Any Catholic can baptize? I know any Morman can, but they believe they are ordained.

any person can baptise another person provided they(the one doing the baptising) does it according to the tritrian formula and the person being baptised askes for it.

Jesus did (and he said so in Luke 23:43).

I don’t need to make the one saved always saved argument. There wasn’t much need for variation in his faith. He died.

everbody does seem to forget that Christ did not ascend into heaven for forty days AFTER His reserrection,in His own words…"for I have yet to go to my Father"so where /what was this paradise Christ was speaking of, for it wasn’t heaven cause He didn’t go there immediately.He was preaching to those souls in prison…ask St.Peter about this one he knows cause he wrote it.

I don’t keep a list. God does.

You are the who claimed to have a long list of those whom do just as you do.

 

[PRmerger]

Why am I hard to figure out? I underestimated how sensitive you guys would be about something done by your church a few hundred years ago. I really didnt mean to offend anyone. I actually had a rather lengthy apology typed out and when I tried to post it the thread was locked! I had just made a post!

Thank you for understanding–yes, we are indeed sensitive about people bringing up rather old arguments like the Crusades, the Inquistion and pedophile priests.

Firstly, those arguments have been addressed ad nauseum on other threads.

Secondly, most of us Catholics see that type of argument as an act of desperation. It’s like when someone is losing a fight and throws sand in his opponent’s eyes. (I am not saying we’re* fighting* on this thread, 'kay? )

In a dignified discourse each person presents his arguments/rebuttals with reason, logic, intelligence and thoughtfully considers the others’ arguments.

So it boils down to my paster and elders not being qualified to serve communion?

I suppose a crude analogy would be trying to explain to your children why being married is sacramental vs just living together. Your adult children might say, “So it boils down to our getting a piece of paper from the courthouse that makes us qualified to say we’re validly married?” My response to someone who says that would be, “No, it’s not just simply getting a piece of paper that makes you sacramentally married. It’s wayyyyy more than that.”