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graceandglory
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Good word, bluelake.
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graceandglory
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Even denominational pentecostalists have the same beef.
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1beleevr
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]You can believe whatever you like - if you read the actual text, you see that it is being addressed to a whole community; not just to one person.
There is no connection between those two ideas. St. Paul is saying that he has given up his life to Christ - that he himself is as good as dead, because he has given his body to Christ, for His work - he has put aside all of his personal pleasures, etc. in perfect mortification of the body. I don’t know how you get from that, to “one on one worship.” That’s kind of like “one on one partying.” Guess what, if you are the only one at your party, it’s not really a party.
There are many things that we do for God. Worship (the gathering of the community to make a communal sacrifice) is only one of these many things. The things we do in His name and for His glory are called “good deeds.” (Feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, etc.)
If I believe whatever I like, then Iwould be like you
And what you have written is your opinion of, or interpretation of what Paul said and meant! I do believe that he meant that Christ was IN him, just as He is in ALL Christians; some of us are just more aware of it, as was Paul! Because He is in me, I can leap out of bed in the morning rather than limp! I read my Bible, rather than allow it to gather dust. I can walk next door and tell my neighbor about Jesus, because He is in me! He told US as well as His disciples that He would be! When we are in obedience to Him, He is more apparent, but when we sin, we diminish Him, but He is there! My words are His words, my thoughts are His thoughts, people say," I see Christ in you!" It has nothing to do with me, it is all Him! And Paul knew that his old self had died, and Christ was running his life! And I don’t believe we should just call them “good deeds,” sounds cheap! When we serve others in His Name, not expecting anything in return, we are committing an act of worship to our King! And worship doesn’t have to be communal; it can be one-on-one!
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1beleevr
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]I’m just responding to 1beleevr’s objection to calling our pope the Holy Father.
Abraham was a father, who happened to be holy, as were many others; but there is only ONE Holy Father, and that is God! You call the pope the “vicar of Christ”, however Jesus was not a father as a human, so how can you call the pope, Holy Father? Is he holy, is he a father? Well, I guess he is the father of the catholic church. I just have trouble calling ANYONE but God Holy Father:thumbsup:
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graceandglory
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Context, context, context. Read the whole section. Don’t focus on just the words on the page.
This isn’t even a reason that separates Catholics from Protestants.
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jmcrae
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No we’re not - we’re committing an act of service to our King, which is also very important. Using the word “worship” to describe everything we do for God is like using the word “birthday party” for everything we do for our children. “I gave my child a birthday party today; I changed his diaper,” or “I gave my child a birthday party today; I fed him, made sure he had clean clothes to wear, and helped him with his homework.” And then when someone objects to calling every little thing a “birthday party” they get upset and say that you don’t consider those things to be very important, because you don’t consider them to be “birthday parties.”]
If I believe whatever I like, then Iwould be like you
The definition of “worship” is a congregation coming together with a priest and making a sacrifice together.
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1beleevr
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I know of many parents, who have baptized their own children, so it sounds like any Christian can baptize a new believer! I prefer full immersion, myself!
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1beleevr
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Where the heck did birthday party come from? We were discussing worship! And which dictionary did you find that definition in? Worship cannot be narrowed down to a group of people and a priest making a sacrifice
Are we still doing the Old Testament thing here? Doesn’t God prefer obedience above sacrifice? Your definition must be the catholic definition, because I know many, myself included, who can worship their God by themselves, you know personally, you and Jesus?
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1beleevr
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Ignorance, ignorance, ignorance! No man is HOLY! And no MAN is HOLY FATHER! Jeez!
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graceandglory
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Yes. This is what the Catholic Church teaches.
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graceandglory
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Okay, I’ll bite. How do you define HOLY?
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jmcrae
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From taking the name of a good thing, and then calling every good thing that you do by that name, regardless of whether it fits or not.]
Sure it can. That’s what it is.Worship cannot be narrowed down to a group of people and a priest making a sacrifice
No, not at all. We don’t sacrifice live animals anymore - we offer up Christ’s Sacrifice.
God prefers that we do our sacrifices His way (obedience) rather than making something up, calling it a sacrifice, and considering it “good enough” as what was going on in Babylon when they were away from the Temple and couldn’t make proper sacrifices. The Prophets were telling the people, “you don’t have to make sacrifices, because you can’t. Instead of making something up in substitute for what you can’t do, how about obeying those commandments of God that you can do.” Context, man. Context.
Nope. I know lots of people (including myself) who pray by themselves, and who give honour and praise to God, but you can’t call that “worship.” Its prayer and praise - good things! but don’t call it what it isn’t.
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1beleevr
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It of course depends on if you are talking about man or God! We know that God is Holy, but what would make the pope holy? Succession, having hands laid on him, or being anointed? the term HOLY FATHER was always used to describe God, and I don’t believe anything has changed! We can interpret and argue Matthew 23:9, until we are blue in the face, and still walk away believing what we did when we first started! You see, catholics have not provided a standard by which other Christians can call the pope Holy Father! Scripture says that He is holy, therefore we must be holy! But when will that happen?
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1beleevr
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You understand what He meant from your perspective! Some of us believe that He meant, call no man Father, as you call your Heavenly Father, Holy Father! And call no man Teacher, as you call your Lord Teacher! Otherwise he would only be a teacher!
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1beleevr
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Until you can definitively prove to me, that when myself, and at least one other Christian are ofering up worship(Where 2 or more are gathered in my Name) to our Lord, is not worship, then we will continue to worship our Lord!
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jmcrae
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If you and the one other are offering a sacrifice together, and either he or you is a priest, then certainly, you are worshipping together.
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tweetymom
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Me too brother!!
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PRmerger
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Interesting that you made this comment, 1beleevr, in response to the conversation on “what is worship”.
There’s the parallel conversation in this thread about “call no man Father”, and I think your statement above can be applied quite well to this conversation. It speaks to why we call the pope the “Holy Father.” We see Christ in him–it has nothing to do with Pope B16–it is all Him!
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PRmerger
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That is very Catholic of you to say that, 1beleevr!
We believe Pope B16 is our spiritual father, who happens to be holy.When Catholics call the pope the Holy Father we are not in any way diminishing the supreme Fatherhood of God. Just like you do not diminish the supreme Fatherhood of God when you, correctly, note that Abraham was a father, who happened to be holy. (And, Paul, too, calls himself the Christians’ “father” in his epistles to them. No doubt he is holy, too.)
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PRmerger
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That is not true. Scripture has many, many references to God calling us to be “holy people”. Surely God does not command the impossible?
I started out with Genesis, and only got to Leviticus before I found too many examples to provide here on this thread:
Exodus 22:31
"You are to be my **holy **people.
Exodus 31:13
"Say to the Israelites, 'You must observe my Sabbaths. This will be a sign between me and you for the generations to come, so you may know that I am the LORD, who makes you holy.
Leviticus 11:44
I am the LORD your God; consecrate yourselves and be holy,
Leviticus 19:2
"Speak to the entire assembly of Israel and say to them: **'Be holy **because I, the LORD your God, am holy.
Leviticus 20:7
" 'Consecrate yourselves and **be holy, **because I am the LORD your God.
Leviticus 20:8
Keep my decrees and follow them. I am the LORD, who makes you holy.
Leviticus 21:7
" 'They must not marry women defiled by prostitution or divorced from their husbands, because **priests are holy **to their God.
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