how do occult practices work?

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Grace & Peace!
This being from the perspective of the occultist, who wants to believe (desperately needs to believe?) that what they are doing is both controlled and safe. The church teaches no such thing. Humans do not have the innate power to bind spirits, and, as you say, attempting to force God to bind a spirit is requesting that God participate in an illicit act (occult practices).
I know what you’re saying here, and for the most part, I agree!

But just to clarify something on the authority point–I think most occultists, insofar as they operate within the Judeo-Christian framework within which much of Western occultism developed, would say that the authority of the operator comes by virtue of the image of God in them, augmented by the power of the divine names which are seen as powerful and coercive in and of themselves. It is not so much that this reasoning is flawed, as that the uses to which this reasoning and its fruits are generally put are questionable. Even though the catechism’s reference to magic is under the explication of the first commandment (and for good reason as it can represent resort to powers other than God and his grace, representing perhaps a betrayal of faith), it may as well also be repeated under the second as misuse of the divine names is clearly a taking of God’s name in vain. Moreover, the practice of magic to accomplish one’s own will makes of religious devotion a mathematical formula which has the self as the denominator: if I say this, if I draw this, if I write this, if this is done so many times, then this other thing, then results will be had. It is not for nothing that such an attitude is called contrary to the virtues of religion partly because such an attitude, in the final analysis, has no room for either faith or charity–it turns both into a formula and renders hope into entitled expectation. But you don’t need to be a magician in order to adopt this attitude–the modern prosperity gospel absolutely hinges on it.

All of which is not to say that the operator has any inherent authority by virtue of his or her creatureliness. But that is not to say that the techne employed is not without a rational basis in ideas common to both religion and magic, and thus not completely unfounded.

Moreover, the danger of much of the occult is not so much being mauled or possessed by a demon, as unsavory as either option may be–it is of self-delusion and self-destruction. There is not much a demon can do to us compared to what we can do to ourselves–human history bears this out quite nicely. The worst thing that a demon or spirit can do when it comes to the occult is to confirm us in our delusions, ignorances, and darknesses.
there is no safe way to summon a spirit at our bidding.
Yes.

But let’s keep some things in perspective: communion, cooperation, and even friendship with heavenly spirits is not illicit. Here’s what I mean: our Christian tradition relies heavily on Platonic ideas. We do not often talk of things in the abstract–principles of the world are imbued with personality and intelligence. We call those principles, for the most part, angels, though the Fathers are quick to point out to us that “angel” describes an office, not a kind of spirit. Paul warns us not to give ourselves over to the elemental spirits now that we have put on Christ, who is above the world and has conquered the world. This does not mean, however, that it is illicit to commune with these spirits. In fact, it could be said that only in Christ can we actually have a *real *relationship, even friendship, with the spirits of creation. But it seems clear that such communion would first involve the consent of God, and then involve the agreement of man–that is, we are in no position to “summon” the spirits through coercive ritual means, but by God’s grace, we may work together with them to the increase of God’s grace in the world. We know that angels and spirits are present at every Eucharist, worshipping with us, and we know that the celestial hierarchies pray with us. We know that it is licit to communicate/pray to our Guardian Angel. As Christians, we know that there is more in heaven and earth than meets the eye. And where magic and the magical is concerned, as Christians, we know that we are trustees of a magic that is most clearly articulated in the words of Our Lady to the spirit Gabriel, “Ecce ancilla Domini, fiat mihi secundum verbum tuum.” (I think few things more clearly articulate the sacred “magic” of Christianity than the Angelus!) Behold the handmaid of the Lord, let it be done to me according to thy word–this, “Yes!” to God is the magic of grace with which we cooperate. Our Yes is important to this work. God will not force his love on us. But our Yes! to God, our own fiat mihi secundum verbum tuum allows us to be transformed and transforming co-workers in the great work and adventure of God’s grace in the world. Few things articulate the sacred “magic” of Christianity better than the Angelus!

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is Grace and Mercy! Deo Gratias!
 
…I suggest staying away from:

Crystals - said to have power to heal or do other things…
Sadly, crystals have become the fascination of the New Agers, when they actually do have some amazing real-world properties like piezo- and pyro-electric effects.
 
I don’t know if this will be helpful to anyone, but I found the following doing a search on EWTN’s Q & A site. It is a response by Richard Geraghty to a question about whether or not Harry Potter is OK. I think it applies to more than just Harry Potter. I avoid HP and would encourage others to do so as well but I think it is helpful to keep the following in mind. People probably already know this but sometimes it helps to have a reminder. I put one crucial sentence in bold myself and added the all-capital letters:

“On many practical matters the Church does not lay down any official teaching. Thus Catholic have to learn how to judge things and then make up their minds about what to do with them, particularly in the education of their children. Harry Potter is one of those issues about which good people can differ. Of course, the authority of the Chief Exorcist in Rome is quite large. But he does not speak as an official teacher in the Church about faith and morals. Yet he should be considered as a man of experience in this field. So I would not see any deviation from orthodoxy if someone should think there might be good things in Harry Potter. Do not consider ANY position taken on this matter as a test of orthodoxy. That would be too narrow a position.”
 
it is said that stuff from harry potter to ouija boards can lead to demons etc. But I was wondering, how do they lead to demons -what is in their nature that leads to supernatural stuff.

Do they operate like sacraments or sacramentals do except they lead to evil? Also, if one knows how they work, it would be a lot easier to distinguish the truly dangerous practice and the not-dangerous practice and not be lead into superstition etc.

Also, a lot of exorcists have stated that harry potter leads to possessions yet, from my understanding, an occult practice has to be one where someone actually tries to make use of a power -but harry potter is a story not an incantation?
I have to agree with others. Some questions should remain unanswered and some questions should simply be abandoned before asking. Knowledge is a good thing, but the Apostle Paul gave great advice in Phil 4:8 “Finally, brothers, let your minds be filled with everything that is true, everything that is honourable, everything that is upright and pure, everything that we love and admire – with whatever is good and praiseworthy.” We have not need to seek after than which does not improve our relationship with God. Does this make sense to you?
 
This being from the perspective of the occultist, who wants to believe (desperately needs to believe?) that what they are doing is both controlled and safe. The church teaches no such thing. Humans do not have the innate power to bind spirits, and, as you say, attempting to force God to bind a spirit is requesting that God participate in an illicit act (occult practices).
I recommend that you stop hearing only what the church has to say and start hearing what the bible and God have to say.

I believe that there is a “magic” side to christianity. However, There are no spells or hidden knowledge. The word “occult” means “hidden” and in the kingdom of God there is very little to be hidden. If God wanted you to speak to an angel then you wouldn’t need to open the third eye or do anything like that. Your “magic” power is your faith. We must remember that Jesus once told his disciples that with enough faith, they could make the mountains rise up an throw themselves into the ocean. As for spells, there is a negative side to them. I used to study and even use the powers of witchcraft and I always had to be careful to not miscast them or else I would get the opposite effect of what I wanted. They aren’t that great and sometimes they can go wild. For example, one time I was in a magick forum and there was this one guy who cast a lust spell on a girl and almost ended up driving her insane to the point where she would need therapy. There was also another guy who cursed this kid and almost ended up killing him. When he tried to reverse the spell, the illness that the kid got went to his brother and the ending is a mystery.

There have been some magick-like things that are allowed by the church and the bible. For example, during the crusades, the knights would pick up a stone from their church and carry it during battle. In the end the crusaders conquered jerusalem but later lost to Saladin. It would be wise for any catholic soldier that will be going to Iraq to do the same thing. However, These things aren’t witchcraft or sorcery. I think they would be better being called mysticism but im not sure so I will just call it magic without the k at the end. You must also remember that God is the one who gives you power. Not the stones or whatever you are using. I recommend that you study the practices of the early christians. Just be careful because some of them were heretics.

Also, why do you people hate crystals so much?
 
What is the difference between “magic” (normal spelling) and “magick” (fancy spelling)?
 
What is the difference between “magic” (normal spelling) and “magick” (fancy spelling)?
Magick is like another word for the magic in sorcery or witchcraft.
 
The magic in Harry Potter is not even remotely close to real world occultism. That’s not my opinion, it’s a fact. I doubt anybody who claims otherwise has even read or seen Harry Potter, and is only going by hearsay. There are no pentagrams in Harry Potter, they don’t use candles for ceremony, no ouiji boards, nothing. All they do is wave a stick around and utter gibberish. It’s nothing more than pure fantasy. It’s not even an issue of being careful when you read/watch it, since that stuff isn’t remotely close to the real thing. If you read/watch Harry Potter and come to the conclusion that it’s all real, then you’re not slipping into the occult, you’re just an idiot (or something is wrong with you on a psychological level, in which case, you should get that checked out). The only thing they get remotely right is some of the deivination, but even that is just fantasy (and in the story, it doesn’t even seem to work).

Stuff like ouija boards though, those are blatantly true occult. They work by invoking spirits from the other world. Pretty clear how this could lead to demons, since you’re openly asking for their help. I’ve heard other fortune telling devices, such as tarot cards and the like can also lead to problems. I don’t know about demons, but they’re definitely a sin.

If you want to know occult works; I’ll explain what I know. Most who use witchcraft belong to a Pagan religion. There are many, but the most common are Wicca and New Age groups. They are just another religion, nothing more, nothing less. They’re a diverse group and worship a wide variety of deities and spirits. Spells are not the special effects powers seen in fantasy, even with this stuff, you can’t violate the laws of physics as seen on TV. The best explanation I can think of is that their spells are similar to prayers. They may have a spell for money, for healing a friend, etc. They also have rituals for glorifying their deities. It leads to evil because it’s a blatant violation of the first commandment.

Some stereotypes are true, some are not, but most are partially true. For example, the pentagram really is a symbol used by the Wiccan religion, but the star is for the five elements (earth, water, fire, air, and spirit). Satanists use the upside down Pentagram.
I agree that the magic in Harry Potter is not only utter gibberish, it sometimes rises to the point of parody, so rather than making any real magic or superstituous claptrap acceptable, it makes it ridiculous.

I enjoyed reading Harry Potter and to me the magic is nothing more than a literary device, similar to some advanced technology in a science-fiction book. It’s not supposed to be credible and its not even supposed to be consistent.

Didn’t Thomas Moore say that the one thing that the devil cannot tolerate is to be mocked? Once you’ve read Harry Potter you cannot listen to anybody using those same words in a serious way without automatically thinking of the jolly old Hogwarts Express and a whizzing good game of Quidditch. If that doesn’t utterly sabotage the prosetylizing intentions of the occultists then I don’t know what will.
 
Grace & Peace!
Magick is like another word for the magic in sorcery or witchcraft.
I think it was Crowley who popularized the archaic spelling. He wanted to make a distinction between magic as stagecraft, illusionism, legerdemain, and prestidigitation and magic(k) as “the science and art of causing change in conformity with the will.” The distinction is important (insofar as they are, indeed, two different things), but I’ve always found the addition of the “k” a bit self-conscious and twee.

Under the Mercy!
Mark

All is Grace and Mercy! Deo Gratias!
 
Grace & Peace!

I think it was Crowley who popularized the archaic spelling. He wanted to make a distinction between magic as stagecraft, illusionism, legerdemain, and prestidigitation and magic(k) as “the science and art of causing change in conformity with the will.” The distinction is important (insofar as they are, indeed, two different things), but I’ve always found the addition of the “k” a bit self-conscious and twee.

Under the Mercy!
Mark

All is Grace and Mercy! Deo Gratias!
Right you are, sir! I find the different spellings to be a useful distinction between stage magic and even the literary sort (it Potter) and occult practice.
 
Others can read for themselves…and should. Both of these women were in to the occult and have no reason to make anything up. Marcia’s story on www.christiananswersforthenewage.org is really true and she travels the country speaking about it. I saw the lady from www.crossveil.org on a Catholic channel on tv and she seemed very honest to me. The only way people can know is to read it for themselves.
 
No kidding…I always share, and always will share these links with anyone wanting to know more about this topic and it’s strange that you would even say that. I trust others to judge the links for themselves and it sure has bothered you everytime folks on this forum get the chance to do so and that speaks volumes. What’s wrong with this picture? I think these links are good and I stand by them and you don’t intimidate me at all. Glad to share these links again with people who want to know about the dangers of the occult.
 
No kidding…I always share, and always will share these links with anyone wanting to know more about this topic and it’s strange that you would even say that. I trust others to judge the links for themselves and it sure has bothered you everytime folks on this forum get the chance to do so and that speaks volumes. What’s wrong with this picture? I think these links are good and I stand by them and you don’t intimidate me at all. Glad to share these links again with people who want to know about the dangers of the occult.
If you want to believe in the “dangers of the occult” by all means do so, but all you’re going to “learn” from these types of sources is tall tales. I find it curious that so many of the “ex-witches” who profess to be experts are people who were never known among the extended pagan communities in the areas they claimed to have practiced. Often times in their writings they demonstrate glaring ignorance about the most basic teachings of our traditions and commit major misspellings of key terms etc. Most of these people clearly just cribbed their stuff straight from stock “spiritual warfare” propaganda, crafted a wild and wolly (and totally unverifiable) back story about their days as “satanists” and they’re on the book and talk circuit to hustle a buck.

It all boils down to this: If you’re Catholic, don’t get involved with the occult if you’re true to your beliefs. If you want to learn what the occult in its many forms is really about, there’s plenty of good well researched material out there. If you want a good spooky campfire ghost story that has nothing to do with reality but stands the hairs up on your neck, go to these “occult danger” sites!
 
I think you should confront these women with their lies and give them a chance to defend themselves before you condemn them to be liars. And I hope folks will go to www.christiananswersforthenewage.org and www.crossveil.org and then do your own research. See for yourselves if these women are liars.
That’s all I ask, is that people do their own research and read EVERYTHING with a critical eye. I’m quite confident the truth will come out.
 
That’s all I ask, is that people do their own research and read EVERYTHING with a critical eye. I’m quite confident the truth will come out./QUOTE

Can you share the links you approve of ? If you don’t trust the links I mentioned regarding the occult…this forum needs to know the ones you have found to be honest and fair.
 
That’s all I ask, is that people do their own research and read EVERYTHING with a critical eye. I’m quite confident the truth will come out.
Please do guide us to links and sources of the EVERYTHING you mention we should read and look up. Without you…how would we know what’s honest about your religion? At least after you give us links to educate us…maybe I’ll finally understand where you think the links I shared are wrong.
 
kenofken;7456725:
That’s all I ask, is that people do their own research and read EVERYTHING with a critical eye. I’m quite confident the truth will come out.
I won’t pretend to have any one or even several sources that I would claim to be THE definitive end all and be all of information about us. However, if anyone wants to get the honest low down on how WE understand our own practices and traditions, you might try www.witchvox.com, www.circlesanctuary.org, the pagan section of patheos.com and any of the books authored by Kerr Cuhulain. A truly excellent resource is Beyond the Burning Times, a Pagan and Christian in Dialogue by Philip Johnson and Gus Di Zerega. It’s a small book and about $15 new, and probably less than half of that used and gives a very fair and balanced contrast of pagan and Christian understanding of things. If anyone expresses a genuine and well-intentioned interest, I’ll snail mail them my copy free of charge.

My whole point is not to sell anyone on joining paganism, or say that everything about us is sweetness and bunny rabbits, but most of what passes for knowledge in the spiritual warfare camps of Christianity is just ludicrous. You’re cheating yourself of true understanding if that’s all you ever read. All I’ve ever asked on this forum is that people who want to debate, criticize, lambast paganism do so based on what we are, not what you fear us or assume us to be. I think you would want the same thing of critics of Catholicism. You would want them to read the Catechism or a good summary of it, not start blazing with some foolishness they picked up from Jack Chick or some radical anti-Catholic protestant website. Whatever faults people find with me on this site (and there are many), you will not find me mis-representing the tenets of Catholicism. I grew up in the faith, studied it at some depth and was considered by some to be a candidate for the seminary at one time. When I disagree with its doctrines, I’m doing so based on what they really are, not crazy misrepresentations of them.

I won’t deny that people have had bad experiences while practicing paganism, or what they believed to be pagan. However, most of the horror story industry which has sprung up is obviously fabricated “satanic panic” nonsense. In many other cases, people project all of their personal problems on our religion. You read accounts of people’s time in Wicca or whatever as a dark period of their lives. Then you read on and they mention that they were involved with drugs, had depression or bipolar disorder, had a messed up adolescence etc. Yet somehow we’re supposed to ignore those connections and believe that it was the Wicca that screwed up their lives.

All I ask is some intellectual honesty. Its most often a futile cry in the wilderness here, but just enough people listen that I’ll keep up the call until they yank my profile down…
 
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