How Do Orthodox Christians View the Pope?

[Tridentinum]

You see comments like that on YouTube videos featuring ecumenical talks between Popes and Orthodox leaders. They would be by far the minority, but they certainly do make the most noise.

 

[Hesychios]

You see comments like that on YouTube videos featuring ecumenical talks between Popes and Orthodox leaders. They would be by far the minority, but they certainly do make the most noise.

Well here is the problem:

1 - There are a lot of Orthodox who are aware of the very real differences between us and consider that very important. Some of these are harshly critical of the papacy, as we can see.

2 - The Orthodox Catholic churches will probably not make any agreements to reconcile Rome to Holy Orthodoxy without at least the tacit approval of the most ardent anti-ecumenists. These people will have to be convinced of the rightness of it. It will likely be an all or nothing kind of thing.

 

[theidler]

As an arch-heretic and precursor to Antichrist.

:nope:Wow…that’s just not very charitable at all. Good grief, that’s what I heard being raised a Seventh-Day Adventist.

On the contrary,
This is how I feel about the Orthodox:
:hug3:

This is what I think of Orthodox saints and theologians:


And this is what I do for my Orthodox friends:


I’ve read arguments from both sides. The views in the East, from what I can gather, vary quite a bit. I know in the Orthodox Study Bible, Matthew 16:18 is interpreted in the sense that St. John Chrysostom took it in his homilies…but then again, Gregory Palamas (a very famous Orthodox saint and theologian) writes that St. Peter is “the leader and foundation-stone of the Church” in the Triads. So I think it really varies.

Of course, ugliness and mudslinging occurs on both sides. I recently read St. Bonaventure’s views of the Eastern Orthodox churches during his time, and it wasn’t too good, let me tell you.

But again, I feel there is ample evidence on both sides for both takes on the issue. Frankly, I do not feel that it is an issue, as I view the Orthodox like Pope John Paul II did, as the other lung of the Church. The rest is merely bickering and in-fighting between members of the same family, and I am frankly sick of it already (and I’ve only been a catechumen for three and some years!).

But I can only speak for myself, and I do not consider the Orthodox to be heretics at all. I simply view them as looking at the same thing from a different angle. And to put it simply, from my observations, the biggest dividing influences between Catholic and Orthodox are human ones - language barriers and misunderstandings, wars, politics, and deeply-rooted fears of each other.

 

[Marybeloved]

I think a statement like this needs some reference. It shouldn’t be based on those on internet boards with that view.

Agreed.

 

[dcointin]

The idea that the pope is the antichrist had its origin with Martin Luther, not Orthodoxy. I’ve never heard an Orthodox theologian express that view.

 

[Filii_Dei]

The Declaration of Ravenna jointly issued by the Catholic and Orthodox Churches might help shed some insight on the core issues both face.

vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/ch_orthodox_docs/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_20071013_documento-ravenna_en.html

The issue of the Pope isn’t the only source of disagreement between the Catholic and Orthodox Churches, of course. Nonetheless, one of the interesting takeaways is that the Orthodox Church recognises the primacy of the Bishop of Rome. However, they do not necessarily recognise the Pope’s supremacy as we know it today.

 

[MrZetterlund]

So… What would Orthodox Christians say in regards to these quotes expressing that the Primacy of the Pope was prevelant in early Christian thinkers and writers?

docs.google.com/document/d/1ZGMRsKMkHduo7fHBCPOq7QT9aVel5GWSnPAbT3fa_HM/edit?pli=1#

 

[jam070406]

As an arch-heretic and precursor to Antichrist.

What gives that idea? Papal condemnation of liberalism, relativism, Freemasonry? Maybe Papal condemnation of socialism, communism, abortion, homosexual marriage, contraception?
The definition of Antichrist in scripture is someone that denies Jesus, soooooo that doesn’t apply.
Maybe you can explain, I’m struggling to see it.

 

[KathleenGee]

That idea came, as stated before, by Martin Luther, when he then completely broke away from the Church, ‘discovering’ the papacy as the anti-Christ in one of his bitter propaganda writings, ‘Captivity in Babylon’.

Likewise…if the poster wants to hold on to Luther’s concept at the papacy as Anti-Christ…he must also realize that Luther broke faith that the Church had no apostolic succession either, so this source also invalidates Orthodox as having any credence as the Church being founded on the Apostles. To Luther, this claim meant nothing, no apostolic succession, no Holy Spirit proceeding in the Church, no hierarchy, no liturgy, but the emphasis on the man…the sermon as the key point of liturgy.

Thank God the Lutherans are in the process of returning to the Church!

I have to reference again…come back…but Christ named Peter two times…when He first chose Peter as apostle, Christ demonstrated Peter’s primacy…calling him Cephas. Shortly before His arrest, Christ named Simon, Peter/Pedra.

Regarding the excesses of the papacy during the times of the Normans…the Normans were very violent and guilty of the worst atrocities during the Crusades. We have to then take this excess and connect it to Peter’s behavior.

Moments after Peter is named as the rock upon which the Church is built, he then tries to stop Christ from being harmed…and now Christ, prior calling him the rock upon which His Church is to be built, Christ now names Peter Satan…thinking in terms of man’s thinking.

Peter goes out with Christ, and upon His arrest, Peter takes his sword and slices off a guard’s ear. Then he denies Christ 3 times, he goes into hiding and is not present at the Crucifixion…a coward as well.

But at the Resurrection, approaching the tomb, John gives way and allows Peter to enter the tomb as primary witness. It is Peter who is the first primary and vocal agent and witness at Pentecost. It is Peter who has the dream of the sheet of animals and the Lord saying ‘to eat’…It is Peter’s house that all are baptized, including the infants.

It is Peter who is led to Rome while the other apostles go elsewhere. It is Rome that has always been the supporter of the local churches, their establishment, and the settling of disputes.

There is communion we Catholics know in accepting the papacy and all the Church, including the Orthodox. The Holy Father represents the faith of all in Christ, he holds the keys to the Living Tradition of Christ in faith and morals…but as a person, he is just as carnate and human as Peter was… a person profoundly human.

The issue I see with the Orthodox…as Christ Himself told Peter…to forgive times by times…to be in communion. That is what Christ wants.

He said at the Last Supper, His prayer was that we would be one…so the world would believe…we do not have that unity of communion, and likewise the world — in so much need of Christ…does not believe.

 

[1beleevr]

The pope is the head of the catholic church, but not the leader of all religions and denominations. He is a mortal man, with faults and shortcomings like all the rest of us. He was chosen by men to fill a spot, and he does very well!

 

[1beleevr]

Like many great sinners and saints before and after him. The pope is no greater or lesser than any other man. Even Paul, unquestionably the greatest evangelist/church planter/witness, recognied his shortcomings(“I am a wretched man”). So, like leaders of other churches, the pope has been chosen to lead his flock, albeit a larger flock than others. I have the utmost respect for the pope, but would not address him as Holy Father(John 17:11).

 

[kmaaj]

And yet I have attended an Orthodox parish where the son of Serbian immigrants was dating and planning to marry a Croatian Catholic girl, and the 2 families were becoming friends. My own take is that if you remove the warring factions from their poisonous environment, forgiveness, healing and reconciliation is easier, even natural.

I find it curious that every time the subject of Serb nationalism came up during his life, Patriarch Pavle never mentioned Rome, as if he was saying by example that the subject is political and not spiritual.

 

[1beleevr]

That idea came, as stated before, by Martin Luther, when he then completely broke away from the Church, ‘discovering’ the papacy as the anti-Christ in one of his bitter propaganda writings, ‘Captivity in Babylon’.

Likewise…if the poster wants to hold on to Luther’s concept at the papacy as Anti-Christ…he must also realize that Luther broke faith that the Church had no apostolic succession either, so this source also invalidates Orthodox as having any credence as the Church being founded on the Apostles. To Luther, this claim meant nothing, no apostolic succession, no Holy Spirit proceeding in the Church, no hierarchy, no liturgy, but the emphasis on the man…the sermon as the key point of liturgy.

Thank God the Lutherans are in the process of returning to the Church!

I have to reference again…come back…but Christ named Peter two times…when He first chose Peter as apostle, Christ demonstrated Peter’s primacy…calling him Cephas. Shortly before His arrest, Christ named Simon, Peter/Pedra.

Regarding the excesses of the papacy during the times of the Normans…the Normans were very violent and guilty of the worst atrocities during the Crusades. We have to then take this excess and connect it to Peter’s behavior.

Moments after Peter is named as the rock upon which the Church is built, he then tries to stop Christ from being harmed…and now Christ, prior calling him the rock upon which His Church is to be built, Christ now names Peter Satan…thinking in terms of man’s thinking.

Peter goes out with Christ, and upon His arrest, Peter takes his sword and slices off a guard’s ear. Then he denies Christ 3 times, he goes into hiding and is not present at the Crucifixion…a coward as well.

But at the Resurrection, approaching the tomb, John gives way and allows Peter to enter the tomb as primary witness. It is Peter who is the first primary and vocal agent and witness at Pentecost. It is Peter who has the dream of the sheet of animals and the Lord saying ‘to eat’…It is Peter’s house that all are baptized, including the infants.

It is Peter who is led to Rome while the other apostles go elsewhere. It is Rome that has always been the supporter of the local churches, their establishment, and the settling of disputes.

There is communion we Catholics know in accepting the papacy and all the Church, including the Orthodox. The Holy Father represents the faith of all in Christ, he holds the keys to the Living Tradition of Christ in faith and morals…but as a person, he is just as carnate and human as Peter was… a person profoundly human.

The issue I see with the Orthodox…as Christ Himself told Peter…to forgive times by times…to be in communion. That is what Christ wants.

He said at the Last Supper, His prayer was that we would be one…so the world would believe…we do not have that unity of communion, and likewise the world — in so much need of Christ…does not believe.

There’s no doubt about Peter’s greatness in serving the Lord, even in light of his denial, and him along with the other disciples falling asleep. But whatever became of his wife? I remember Jesus healed his mother-in-law. And, I read where Mary Magdelene was the first eyewitness to the risen Saviour!

 

[1beleevr]

And I respect your choices to follow this mere mortal man, who has been voted in by a group of MEN! There is nothing I have read, that tells me that the pope is my leader. That title belongs to Jesus Christ, who is my King. He and He alone will I follow. I would definitely address the pope with the respect due him, were I to meet him in person. I would call him “sir,” but would not kiss his ring, nor would I address him as Holy Father, a title reserved ONLY for God, my Holy Father!

 

[1beleevr]

My belief in the Deity and Lordship of Christ is not derived from any catholic perspective! It comes from believing in Him and the One who sent Him! The pope is the pope, appointed leader of the catholic church. I do not buy into the vicar of Christ theory; as all Christians, regardless of following, are the hands and feet of Christ, His representatives to the world. So, do not tell us noncatholics, that the pope represents us. If we wanted to follow the pope, we would be catholic. We have chosen to follow Jesus… you know that song, don’t you; “I have decided to follow Jesus, I have decided to follow Jesus…”?

 

[1beleevr]

Man, I love it; you are as stubborn as I am! My devotion to Christ(stronger now than ever before) has no ties to or relevance to catholicism! You see, when we all get to Heaven, it will not matter what denomination you were part of on this earth. We will ALL be dressed in His righteousness, all equally His children, none greater than another. Just because I do not believe in the extent of the pope’s authority, as you do, does not mean that I do not respect the man. When I do my ministries, I meet many people who embrace a position sometimes radically different than the Truth that I hold sacred! But, because of the love of God, I am able to smile at them and witness of His incredible grace and mercy. So, the bootom line is this: the pope is a man, supposedly ordained to lead the ENTIRE Christian nation, but he has to settle for just the catholics. don’t get me wrong, he is a good man, and is very learned, but he is still just a man!

 

[KathleenGee]

1believer,

Thank you for your esteem and respect for our Holy Father. I believe only in the one True Lord, Jesus Christ just like you do. In fact, Catholics believe just like you do. We do not put our trust in man.

What we are recognizing in the Seat of Peter however, is that Christ indeed claimed primacy of Peter over all the apostles. And yes, we know Mary of Magdalen as first to come to the tomb…that is a great statement of value of faith of women and Christ’s saving forgiveness. Likewise, there is private speculation within the Church that we would think the Lord would first come to His mother, who was faithful to her charism of pondering all things in her heart. But the Gospels only point to Mary Magdalen.

But Mary Magdalen was not an apostle. Christ chose 12 apostles, and when one defected, the Apostles knew to fill that void…twelve symbolizes perfection…here in this context…the perfection of faith in the Church…professed publicly at Mass in our Apostle/Nicene Creed. This acceptance of faith finds its perfection in the faithful members of the Church’s assent. The clergy and believers affirm together our faith in the One True God.

All who are baptized into Christ, are baptized into the Catholic Church,even our separated brethren, and when they enter the Church, they are taught the norms…and when they truly assent, they can participate at Mass – even the very next day…pastor’s discretion…but most are encouraged to attend RCIA…Rite of Christian Initiation for Adults, RCIC for children.

The Church, and the Holy Father, never take the place of God nor is the Chuch the one who opens the door to salvation. Faith is in God and in His judgment of who is saved and who is not…The Church rather is as a mother, nurturing us in the Eucharist and sacraments, through teaching, providing us the full deposit of faith in Who is Christ, who we are to Him, and how we can have the greatest fulfillment of Christ now. The Church is in essence communion with the Holy Trinity and with each other when we accept the Primacy of Peter…and we have the grace of Peter who was admonished to forgive many times a sin itself to turn the cheek and love.

Yes, it was the primacy of Peter who was also told by Christ to be the one to forgive…Peter representing all the other apostles, and all believers in Christ.

When the Holy Father speaks publicly, he is speaking not only to Catholics but to all Christians and to the world, and he has that grace of authority and world attention only through Christ in the Holy Spirit. Subsequently, when the Holy Father speaks, he is addressing Christ’s call to all mankind…the fulfillment of being head of the universal Church.

Without Christ’s designation, then the Holy Father would speak in faith like any other patriarch or bishop, but not with the evangelical outreach that we witness throughout the world that the papacy extends. The Church exists not for itself but for bringing the Good News to all mankind.

The Roman Catholic Church is the universal sign of faith to all the world. Not of itself, but of its mission and marks given it by the Holy Spirit: one, holy --not of man but solely of Christ, catholic meaning universal…existing for all mankind as the means to salvation and fullness of life in Christ, and apostolic…the apostolic line never broken.

Being consecrated and ordained in Holy Orders does not guarantee or make one more holy. It is our faith in Christ and doing His will that makes us holy, God having no favorites…and He freely gave Mary Magdalen, a former public sinner and prostitute, the grace to be the first at the Empty Tomb.

 

[1beleevr]

1believer,

Thank you for your esteem and respect for our Holy Father. I believe only in the one True Lord, Jesus Christ just like you do. In fact, Catholics believe just like you do. We do not put our trust in man.

What we are recognizing in the Seat of Peter however, is that Christ indeed claimed primacy of Peter over all the apostles. And yes, we know Mary of Magdalen as first to come to the tomb…that is a great statement of value of faith of women and Christ’s saving forgiveness. Likewise, there is private speculation within the Church that we would think the Lord would first come to His mother, who was faithful to her charism of pondering all things in her heart. But the Gospels only point to Mary Magdalen.

But Mary Magdalen was not an apostle. Christ chose 12 apostles, and when defected, the Apostles knew to fill that void…twelve symbolizes perfection…here in this context…the perfection of faith in the Church…professed publicly at Mass in our Apostle/Nicene Creed.

However, in affirming the faith given to us by the Apostles based on the Oral Tradition of Christ – (He did not pass out Bibles, ordinary Jews in those days did not have their own personal bibles…), this acceptance of faith finds its perfection in the faithful members of the Church’s assent.

By the way, all who are baptized into Christ, are baptized into the Catholic Church, they are our separated brethren, and when they enter the Church, they are taught the norms…and when they truly assent, they can participate at Mass even the very next day…pastor’s discretion…but most are encouraged to attend RCIA…Rite of Christian Initiation.

The Church, and the Holy Father, never take the place of God or is the one who opens the door to salvation. Faith is in God and in His judgment of who is saved and who is not…The Church rather is as a mother, nurturing us in the Eucharist and sacraments, through teaching, providing us the full deposit of faith in Who is Christ, who we are to Him, and how we can have the greatest fulfillment of Christ now.

When the Holy Father speaks publicly, he is speaking not only to Catholics but to all Christians and to the world, and he has that grace of authority and world attention only through Christ in the Holy Spirit. Subsequently, when the Holy Father speaks, he is addressing Christ’s call to all mankind…the fulfillment of being head of the universal Church.

Without Christ’s designation, then the Holy Father would speak in faith like any other patriarch or bishop, but not with the evangelical outreach that we witness throughout the world that the papacy extends. The Church exists not for itself but for bringing the Good News to all mankind.

The Roman Catholic Church is the universal sign of faith to all the world. Not of itself, but of its mission and marks given it by the Holy Spirit: one, holy --not of man but solely of Christ, catholic meaning universal…existing for all mankind as the means to salvation and fullness of life in Christ, and apostolic…the apostolic line never broken.

Being consecrated and ordained in Holy Orders does not guarantee or make one more holy. It is our faith in Christ and doing His will that makes us holy, God having no favorites…and He freely gave Mary Magdalen, a former public sinner and prostitute, the grace to be the first at the Empty Tomb.

Well said, my sister in Christ, and there are some truths in what you say; other things are interpretations by the catholic church. The pope is not and should not be addressed as Holy Father other than by catholics.God is our Holy Father, a sacred title reserved only for Him! And Mary Magdalene was not only the first at the empty tomb(did you know that the Cross was empty too? Still is today.), she was the first to see the risen Saviour, and speak to Him! Doesn’t matter whether she was an apostle or not, she saw Him! And I have been happily noncatholic for nearly 60 years, and expect to be until my King calls me home! Love ya sister!

 

[Mickey]

Christ indeed claimed primacy of Peter over all the apostles.

Eph 2:19-20
Now therefore you are no more strangers and foreigners; but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and the domestics of God, Built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone:

And yes, we know Mary of Magdalen as first to come to the tomb

Christ appeared first to St Mary Magdalene.

But Mary Magdalen was not an apostle.

In the Holy Orthodox Church we call her “Equal-to-the-Apostles.”

He freely gave Mary Magdalen, a former public sinner and prostitute, the grace to be the first at the Empty Tomb.

How do you know that she was a prostitute?

 

[KathleenGee]

Mickey…

I think you are misunderstanding me…yes, Christ appeared to Mary Magdalen…and I also said it in my post…that God has no favorites…when we do God’s will in love, we are pleasing to Him.

And I was inferring of Mary Magdalen’s greatness that she was the first…to clarify here…and be at the empty tomb…not afraid like the Apostles…and yes her faith, I would agree is equal to the Apostles’.

The role of Peter is head…you can’t have two heads because if you do, then human wise, you will have a split. One must have patience. And I am in some things, more inclined to some Orthodox explanations than Latin.

The role of Peter is unity, speaking as Living Revelation as Peter alone was given the keys to heaven and eternal life…but his place…for the Church to be perfect and one…is likewise connected to the apostles and the universality of the Church.