How Do Orthodox Christians View the Pope?

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šŸ‘

And may I add. Orthodoxy accepts the primacy of the Patriarch of Rome, but not his supremacy.
I am no theologian. It appears that both titles can apply. The pontiff is supreme of the Roman patriarchy and has primacy of the patriarchs.
 
I am no theologian. It appears that both titles can apply. The pontiff is supreme of the Roman patriarchy and has primacy of the patriarchs.
Now if he’d only kept his supremacy to the Churches under him, we’d be good. šŸ˜‰
 
Wow see how the thread sprang back to life. Wow that was quick.
Ubenedictus
 
How exactly, pray tell, does theology become ā€œstagnantā€? How often must new doctrines be innovated in order to prevent the stagnation of theology? Once every one hundred years? fifty years? Where in the holy fathers or the holy Scriptures may I read of the need to innovate doctrines in order to prevent the stagnation of theology? Indeed, where may I hear of the need to develop doctrine at all from the faith of the apostles, once delivered?

Do Catholics believe that the faith of the apostles was transmitted imperfectly to the apostles by Christ, that we should have to innovate upon it on order to perfect it? Is there, therefore, a set goal, after which we shall stop developing doctrine, and stagnation will be a good thing? Will faith never be perfected, so that it must instead be developed forever? What then of the Apostle’s warning that should any man or even an angel from heaven preach to us another gospel that he should be accursed? Surely, this idea of the development of doctrine was unknown to the fathers, apostles and martyrs of the Church and must therefore be rejected as a great impiety, lest we should reproach the faith of the apostles, once delivered, and unwittingly put in its place a faith which is counterfeit and accursed.
so i guess you misunderstood me. While doctrines dont change the understanding of develops. For instance nicae used d word ā€˜consubstantial’ when discussing christ d arians refused. A new understanding of the word set in, a word not used before is introduced in theology, while d doctrine is essentially the same our understand and discription of the truth has developed.
Ubenedictus
 
True the problem is much of the early translation when bought foward was critically translated vary slightly. As was my point with St Cyprian above, which in a word was badly translated. Now as we have been conversing here, a couple other translated errors come to mind. In particular one with St Augustine from months ago and another by St Jerome of recent.

While I have the Council of E. session II here my eyes are tired, that will have to wait to go through it. The point being that early translations really need to be understood in content/context and very correctly translated. And obviously some are not

That said. Heres a link to Dr Scott Hahn. While I do believe his Biblical understanding is accurate. I’m not positive if he did the ECFs translations either. So on his sight that would be my only concern. And I only say that because of past issues with translations and taking into consideration the thought of if he actually translated everything he is using. Which I know he did with the Bible translation.

Another point Ubenedictus bought up reminds of the past years dialogue with the Assumption. Not to change the topic but just a point of how doctrine developes. We can’t ignore the time spent in understanding the history of the Dormition by the church which was bought foward to the Assumption. Would have been nice had the entire church been in dialogue over that conversation, which I believe is a good reason why serious historic theological developements be made with consideration to those who do have the right to be present and actually have a word in the logical process of change.

Nevertheless, here we are, and with what we are confronted with.

Peace

google.com/url?q=http://www.catholic-pages.com/pope/hahn.asp&sa=U&ei=s1h5T7y1Dei90AGhq8GzBw&ved=0CBAQFjAA&sig2=0EYD6iJ1iqxePVugr8zZng&usg=AFQjCNGxV7u6bkOKoPoFonncxdDDEoSCKA
 
We need not discuss the ecclesiology of Saint Cyprian here (and I would prefer not to go into it again) but if you insist on it we will go over the subject, and everyone will see that the saint did not support anything like a modern Papacy and you are misquoting him by saying he believed this about the Pope.

He was referring to his own See (and all orthodox Sees) in that quote. In other words, for saint Cyprian all bishops are Peter, but for Roman Catholics as soon as the read ā€˜Peter’ they think ā€˜Pope’ and thereby quite often misread the man.
I have no problem discussing anything, i do not agree with your explanation cyprain was talking about unity of the whole church not just every see.
 
I have no problem discussing anything, i do not agree with your explanation cyprain was talking about unity of the whole church not just every see.
Those are not mutually exclusive. Unity can exist without an earthly focal point.
 
Theology that saved Christians in the time of Christ is sufficient to save today.

It would not be right to assert that what was taught in Antioch in the first century or Rome in the fourth century, or in Seville in the eight century was in any way inadequate. It is the received faith, from Christ through the Apostles. To make this claim (that somehow today you know better, or imply that Catholics in the future will know even more) you have to condemn your own origins and sever your ties to the Apostolic past.

The faith of the past simply must be recognized and regarded as more than sufficient.
 
Cadvasis:
Even then, there is a huge problem with the quote by Pope Innocent because he confirms that all bishops are the successors of Peter, claiming that the episcopacy flows from Peter.

Problematic too is that some of the quotes have no context and are heavily edited. Look for example at the quote written by St. Jerome. Notice how some of it has been cut out?

Here is a fuller version of the same quote: And yet John, one of the disciples, who is related to have been the youngest of the Apostles, and who was a virgin when he embraced Christianity, remained a virgin, and on that account was more beloved by our Lord, and lay upon the breast of Jesus. And what Peter, who had had a wife, did not dare ask, John13:25 he requested John to ask. And after the resurrection, when Mary Magdalene told them that the Lord had risen, John20:4 they both ran to the sepulchre, but John outran Peter. And when they were fishing in the ship on the lake of Gennesaret, Jesus stood upon the shore, and the Apostles knew not who it was they saw; the virgin alone recognized a virgin, and said to Peter, It is the Lord. Again, after hearing the prediction that he must be bound by another, and led whither he would not, and must suffer on the cross, Peter said, Lord what shall this man do? being unwilling to desert John, with whom he had always been united. Our Lord said to him, What is that to you if I wish him so to be? Whence the saying went abroad among the brethren that that disciple should not die. Here we have a proof that virginity does not die, and that the defilement of marriage is not washed away by the blood of martyrdom, but virginity abides with Christ, and its sleep is not death but a passing to another state. If, however, Jovinianus should obstinately contend that John was not a virgin, (whereas we have maintained that his virginity was the cause of the special love our Lord bore to him), let him explain, if he was not a virgin, why it was that he was loved more than the other Apostles. But you say, Matthew*16:18 the Church was founded upon Peter: although elsewhere the same is attributed to all the Apostles, and they all receive the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and the strength of the Church depends upon them all alike, yet one among the twelve is chosen so that when a head has been appointed, there may be no occasion for schism. But why was not John chosen, who was a virgin? Deference was paid to age, because Peter was the elder: one who was a youth, I may say almost a boy, could not be set over men of advanced age; and a good master who was bound to remove every occasion of strife among his disciples, and who had said to them, John*14:27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you, and, He that is the greater among you, let him be the least of all, would not be thought to afford cause of envy against the youth whom he had loved. We maybe sure that John was then a boy because ecclesiastical history most clearly proves that he lived to the reign of Trajan, that is, he fell asleep in the sixty-eighth year after our Lord’s passion, as I have briefly noted in my treatise on Illustrious Men. Peter is an Apostle, and John is an Apostle— the one a married man, the other a virgin; but Peter is an Apostle only, John is both an Apostle and an Evangelist, and a prophet. An Apostle, because he wrote to the Churches as a master; an Evangelist, because he composed a Gospel, a thing which no other of the Apostles, excepting Matthew, did; a prophet, for he saw in the island of Patmos, to which he had been banished by the Emperor Domitian as a martyr for the Lord, an Apocalypse containing the boundless mysteries of the future.
newadvent.org/fathers/30091.htm Shockingly, in this passage, St. Jerome is arguing that virginity is better, because St. John, a virgin, was the most-beloved of the apostles by the Lord. He then goes on to argue that even though Peter was appointed head, this was only for good order and because Peter was the oldest of the apostles. He even says that all of the apostles were given the keys! He then goes on to show how much more special John the apostle and evangelist is than Peter, who is merely an apostle. Look then at how dishonestly that quotation was edited, when in fact, it says just the opposite of what it was edited to say. How many of those other quotations then, perhaps say something else other than what they have been edited to say?
thanks for d context but i dont see any difference. The quote above instead clearify even with d context that even with d apostles peter was head to prevent division, that is exactly what has happen after we decided to reject the need for headship. All bishop are truely of the apostolic college and exercise d use of the keys but still there remained the need for headship. All bishops are bishops but not all bishops are achbishop and patriarch and just one was head to prevent what we have today.
 
Cavadosi:
Even then, there is a huge problem with the quote by Pope Innocent because he confirms that all bishops are the successors of Peter, claiming that the episcopacy flows from Peter.

Problematic too is that some of the quotes have no context and are heavily edited. Look for example at the quote written by St. Jerome. Notice how some of it has been cut out?

Here is a fuller version of the same quote: And yet John, one of the disciples, who is related to have been the youngest of the Apostles, and who was a virgin when he embraced Christianity, remained a virgin, and on that account was more beloved by our Lord, and lay upon the breast of Jesus. And what Peter, who had had a wife, did not dare ask, John13:25 he requested John to ask. And after the resurrection, when Mary Magdalene told them that the Lord had risen, John20:4 they both ran to the sepulchre, but John outran Peter. And when they were fishing in the ship on the lake of Gennesaret, Jesus stood upon the shore, and the Apostles knew not who it was they saw; the virgin alone recognized a virgin, and said to Peter, It is the Lord. Again, after hearing the prediction that he must be bound by another, and led whither he would not, and must suffer on the cross, Peter said, Lord what shall this man do? being unwilling to desert John, with whom he had always been united. Our Lord said to him, What is that to you if I wish him so to be? Whence the saying went abroad among the brethren that that disciple should not die. Here we have a proof that virginity does not die, and that the defilement of marriage is not washed away by the blood of martyrdom, but virginity abides with Christ, and its sleep is not death but a passing to another state. If, however, Jovinianus should obstinately contend that John was not a virgin, (whereas we have maintained that his virginity was the cause of the special love our Lord bore to him), let him explain, if he was not a virgin, why it was that he was loved more than the other Apostles. But you say, Matthew*16:18 the Church was founded upon Peter: although elsewhere the same is attributed to all the Apostles, and they all receive the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and the strength of the Church depends upon them all alike, yet one among the twelve is chosen so that when a head has been appointed, there may be no occasion for schism. But why was not John chosen, who was a virgin? Deference was paid to age, because Peter was the elder: one who was a youth, I may say almost a boy, could not be set over men of advanced age; and a good master who was bound to remove every occasion of strife among his disciples, and who had said to them, John*14:27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you, and, He that is the greater among you, let him be the least of all, would not be thought to afford cause of envy against the youth whom he had loved. We maybe sure that John was then a boy because ecclesiastical history most clearly proves that he lived to the reign of Trajan, that is, he fell asleep in the sixty-eighth year after our Lord’s passion, as I have briefly noted in my treatise on Illustrious Men. Peter is an Apostle, and John is an Apostle— the one a married man, the other a virgin; but Peter is an Apostle only, John is both an Apostle and an Evangelist, and a prophet. An Apostle, because he wrote to the Churches as a master; an Evangelist, because he composed a Gospel, a thing which no other of the Apostles, excepting Matthew, did; a prophet, for he saw in the island of Patmos, to which he had been banished by the Emperor Domitian as a martyr for the Lord, an Apocalypse containing the boundless mysteries of the future.
newadvent.org/fathers/30091.htm Shockingly, in this passage, St. Jerome is arguing that virginity is better, because St. John, a virgin, was the most-beloved of the apostles by the Lord. He then goes on to argue that even though Peter was appointed head, this was only for good order and because Peter was the oldest of the apostles. He even says that all of the apostles were given the keys! He then goes on to show how much more special John the apostle and evangelist is than Peter, who is merely an apostle. Look then at how dishonestly that quotation was edited, when in fact, it says just the opposite of what it was edited to say. How many of those other quotations then, perhaps say something else other than what they have been edited to say?
thanks for d context but i dont see any difference. The quote above instead clearify even with d context that even with d apostles peter was head to prevent division, that is exactly what has happen after we decided to reject the need for headship. All bishop are truely of the apostolic college and exercise d use of the keys but still there remained the need for headship. All bishops are bishops but not all bishops are achbishop and patriarch and just one was head to prevent what we have today.
 
so i guess you misunderstood me. While doctrines dont change the understanding of develops. For instance nicae used d word ā€˜consubstantial’ when discussing christ d arians refused. A new understanding of the word set in, a word not used before is introduced in theology, while d doctrine is essentially the same our understand and discription of the truth has developed.
Ubenedictus
I would disagree slightly. I think it is clear that the very earliest Christian conceptions of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is that they were somehow distinct personal entities, but also all divine. This concept might have developed further with scholastics like Aquinas, who identified the essence with God instead of the person of the Father, but the original understanding, as put forth in the creed (that there is one God, the Father, Who begets the Son, and from Whom the Holy Spirit proceeds) has not changed much, if at all from the pre-nicene era.
 
thanks for d context but i dont see any difference. The quote above instead clearify even with d context that even with d apostles peter was head to prevent division, that is exactly what has happen after we decided to reject the need for headship. All bishop are truely of the apostolic college and exercise d use of the keys but still there remained the need for headship. All bishops are bishops but not all bishops are achbishop and patriarch and just one was head to prevent what we have today.
Archbishops and patriarchs are not a matter of faith. None existed in the earliest centuries of the Church. Only later did they emerge, for the good governance of the Church. My disagreement with Rome is that it took what was a matter of good order and transformed it into a matter of faith, where now the pope is the Divinely-instituted vicar of Christ. The Orthodox will never accept such a belief.
 
Those are not mutually exclusive. Unity can exist without an earthly focal point.
now im shocked I thought you were the person who posted the quote that christ instituted a earthly person to become head so as to prevent schism. So now we dont need a head, the original style should go there should be no headship though there may be ranks of honour. Sorry i see rather in the deposit of faith a focal point earthly unity assisted by the master of unity God himself.
Ubenedictus.
 
I would disagree slightly. I think it is clear that the very earliest Christian conceptions of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is that they were somehow distinct personal entities, but also all divine. This concept might have developed further with scholastics like Aquinas, who identified the essence with God instead of the person of the Father, but the original understanding, as put forth in the creed (that there is one God, the Father, Who begets the Son, and from Whom the Holy Spirit proceeds) has not changed much, if at all from the pre-nicene era.
i guess you have a problem with the thomistic view of substance and essence e.t.c. But i think the best example of a new word in theology is when the council used d word ā€˜consubstantial’ maybe another is the word trinity.
Ubenedictus
 
Archbishops and patriarchs are not a matter of faith. None existed in the earliest centuries of the Church. Only later did they emerge, for the good governance of the Church. My disagreement with Rome is that it took what was a matter of good order and transformed it into a matter of faith, where now the pope is the Divinely-instituted vicar of Christ. The Orthodox will never accept such a belief.
i guess this brings with it a question, ā€˜what do we mean by matters of faith?’ if church structure isnt then what is a matter of faith? Now in the early church we had d 12 apostle, there were others called apostles what about the overseerers of the individual church, i think the use of these words may be term development. You also mention that the pope is the divinely instituted vicar, i also just read a quote from the CCC in this thread saying something about a bishop as a vicar (i’ll check again). Now i guess the pope as a vicar comes from augustine’s writtings that peter more than anyone deserved to represent the entire church… (please note: above is not vabatim i actually read it some time ago and im not sure my memory is exact.)
ubenedictus
 
I think the title is pretty self-expanitory of my question.
I found the book You Are Peter: An Orthodox Reflection on the Exercise of Papal Primacy by
Oilvier Clement to really helpful in understanding the Orthodox position.
 
now im shocked I thought you were the person who posted the quote that christ instituted a earthly person to become head so as to prevent schism. So now we dont need a head, the original style should go there should be no headship though there may be ranks of honour. Sorry i see rather in the deposit of faith a focal point earthly unity assisted by the master of unity God himself.
Ubenedictus.
Well, then you are reading it wrong. Did not Jerome also stress the equality of the apostles in that very quote? Surely then, Peter’s headship is not how you understand it to be.
i guess you have a problem with the thomistic view of substance and essence e.t.c. But i think the best example of a new word in theology is when the council used d word ā€˜consubstantial’ maybe another is the word trinity.
Ubenedictus
Homoousios was not some new word. It had a meaning in Greek of either being of the same existence or of the same type of being. The Church, in her wisdom, used the word with the second understanding to describe the sameness of the Son to the Father. They did not invent a new doctrine but merely put into precise words what they had already known from the very beginning: that the Son is divine. My problem with the Thomist view is that it undermines the person of the Father by ascribing what is rightly His to the divine essence.
i guess this brings with it a question, ā€˜what do we mean by matters of faith?’ if church structure isnt then what is a matter of faith? Now in the early church we had d 12 apostle, there were others called apostles what about the overseerers of the individual church, i think the use of these words may be term development. You also mention that the pope is the divinely instituted vicar, i also just read a quote from the CCC in this thread saying something about a bishop as a vicar (i’ll check again). Now i guess the pope as a vicar comes from augustine’s writtings that peter more than anyone deserved to represent the entire church… (please note: above is not vabatim i actually read it some time ago and im not sure my memory is exact.)
ubenedictus
The office of overseer (episcopos or bishop) is not some sort of development. To believe so is literally heresy because it denies that the Church is Apostolic as understood in the Nicene Creed. We believe that the order of Episcopacy was passed down from the Apostles to this present day.
 
Sadly that review misses all the points that I highlighted in my copy.
 
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