meltzerboy
New member
In Matthew, therefore, the Trinitarian G-d was already established?
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SteveVH
Guest
Yep.
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SteveVH
Guest
This is view is prevalent among many non-Christian religions. How anyone ever came to this conclusion is beyond me. If we study Christ’s own words, and those of the people who were witnesses to his life, one thing becomes readily apparent. Jesus was either who he claimed to be, the Son of God, or he was off his rocker, or he was a complete fraud and has pulled off the greatest deception known to man. One thing he was not was just a good man and learned rabbi.
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dronald
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Yes, certainly. But not just there of course.
Also, it’s important that when people are discussing the Holy Trinity that they do not separate the Holy Spirit. Muslims (and I suppose people of all Religions) are quick to give us a hard time over calling Jesus God, but rarely ever comment on the Holy Spirit; Who is prevalent in the Old Testament.
Anyways, there’s ample reason to understand that Jesus is God if one accepts the words of Christian Scripture as truth; besides the one passage that you asked about.
Psalm 9:7-8 The Lord abides forever, He has established His throne for Judgement, and He will Judge the world in righteousness.
John 5:22 Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, 23 that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him.
Matthew 25:31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world…41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
I do however believe the Trinity was made known before Jesus’s coming, but not necessarily understood. Here are some interesting passages to ponder:
9 Then the angel of the Lord told her, “Go back to your mistress and submit to her.” 10 The angel added, “I will increase your descendants so much that they will be too numerous to count.”…13 She gave this name to the Lord who spoke to her: “You are the God who sees me,” for she said, “I have now seen[c] the One who sees me.”
Genesis 3:2 There the angel of the Lord appeared to him in flames of fire from within a bush. Moses saw that though the bush was on fire it did not burn up…16 “Go, assemble the elders of Israel and say to them, ‘The Lord, the God of your fathers—the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob—appeared to me and said: I have watched over you and have seen what has been done to you in Egypt.
Genesis 22:10 Then he reached out his hand and took the knife to slay his son. 11 But the **angel of the Lord **called out to him from heaven, “Abraham! Abraham!”
“Here I am,” he replied.
12 “Do not lay a hand on the boy,” he said. “Do not do anything to him. Now I know that you fear God, because you have not withheld from me your son, your only son.”
However, as a Jewish person this may not at all be convincing for you; so I must ask what you think of the “Spirit of the Lord.” And whether or not said Spirit of God is God?
1 Samuel 10:10 When he and his servant arrived at Gibeah, a procession of prophets met him; the Spirit of God came powerfully upon him, and he joined in their prophesying.
Isaiah 63:11 Then his people recalled** the days of old,
the days of Moses and his people—
where is he who brought them through the sea,
with the shepherd of his flock?
Where is he who set
his** Holy Spirit** among them,
12 who sent his glorious arm of power
to be at Moses’ right hand,
who divided the waters before them,
to gain for himself everlasting renown,
13 who led them through the depths?
Ezekiel 11:5 Then the** Spirit of the Lord** came on me, and he told me to say: “This is what the Lord says: That is what you are saying, you leaders in Israel, but I know what is going through your mind.
2 Samuel 23: 2 “The Spirit of the Lord spoke through me;
his word was on my tongue.
3 The God of Israel spoke,
the Rock of Israel said to me
Job 33:4The Spirit of God has made me; the breath of the Almighty gives me life.
Notice how these are being used interchangeably?
Isaiah 48:16 “Come near me and listen to this:
“From the first announcement I have not spoken in secret;
at the time it happens, I am there.”
And now the Sovereign Lord has sent me,
endowed with his Spirit.**
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schaeffer
Guest
A great many non Christians haven’t read the Gospel. They did not study Christ’s words or the words of eye witnesses, as is to be expected of someone who is not of the faith.
The majority of people in the world have not read the holy books and doctrine of a great number of other faiths. The one’s who do often approach it as interesting reading but not literal truth.
Some people do think Jesus was off his rocker if he considered himself God, but think he was a good man who taught many worthwhile things just the same. They don’t feel that everything he taught would be null, void and worthless if he was not divine.
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SteveVH
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So they have no real basis for determining that Jesus was “just a good man”.
So true. Too bad that negligence and complacency are not virtues.
I don’t know many people who would put any stock in someone who they felt was “off his rocker”. I wouldn’t.
Peace.
Steve
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hasantas
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hasantas
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My question is not as if Jesus buit a physical structure or not but to mention that Jesus established his religion.
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MartinJordan
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Your understanding is just that. Your own. But without respecting a Faith that came **long **before Islam, it’ll be only garble. I want to tell you to leave everything you think you know and learn what Catholicism teaches.
Anyone can join the RCIA (Rite of Christian Initiation for Adults). Don’t be afraid my friend.
That’s not our choice to make. It is your job to learn why we believe Jesus is God.
Christianity is not up for compromise. And where did you get the idea those who came before Jesus have no hope for Heaven? Keep in mind we also must know the old testament. Everyday, we have Mass (Worship service) and we read and hear both old and new testaments. EVERYDAY. So don’t make false witness.
Once again learn what we believe.
MJ
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dronald
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It is through Jesus Christ that those before Him were made perfect and brought to Heaven. And it will be by Jesus Christ that we shall too.
The Bible doesn’t leave any room for denying Jesus as the Son of God. “To deny the Son is to deny the Father” He says. There are multiple times that Jesus is called the Son of God in the Bible.
Despite all of this, one must believe that Jesus paid for our sins. If you don’t accept God’s free gift to mankind, but reject it then you will not enter Heaven. Jesus paid for our sins with His death, and one must accept this. Besides, as we’ve talked about, God is not a trickster; Christianity fits the historical narrative regarding Jesus’s death. God would not fool everyone into believing in Christianity, only to create Islam.
As for your next post, yes Jesus built a Church. See my “On this rock I will build my Church.” And also see “Baptizing in the name of the Father, Son, Holy Spirit.”
As well you ought to be careful. If you blasphemy the Holy Spirit you will not be forgiven. So to make up some excuse for Him and say He’s an angel or a force can be dangerous. I only say this because I fear for your soul.
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hasantas
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Ofcourse it is difficult and unacceptable if some other says something which conflicts with your belief. Muslims do not deny Jesus and his religion. Let’s us just be on the fence. There are many proofs which declare that Quran is revelation from God and Quran has never changed and it is preserved as in original text. On the other hand Bible is revelation from God there is no doubt. But there is no original text of revelation which came to Jesus and Gospels were interpret in many different languages and the biggest problem is that there is no only one Gospel. Gospels narrated by apostles and thereafter by many pastors. Gospels has changed many hands. So there should be some conceptions and thougts of interpreters in Gospels. I have red gospels and there are many explanations which observe what Jesus did or what happened and these statements cannot be revelation. Christians love Jesus vey much so they want to see Jesus on the highest point. Muslims love Abraham, Noah, Jesus, Moses, Jacob, Muhammed and all prophets too but Muslims do not exceed the limits.
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schaeffer
Guest
Based on what they hear about him, read about him from third had sources etc. So no, not any in depth basis, because most are not motivated to study him.
Is not studying the doctrine and writings of another faith negligence and complacency? Most people have their plate full addressing their life, culture and their own faith. Kudos to those who have the luxury to study all the faiths in the world.So true. Too bad that negligence and complacency are not virtues.
They don’t put stock in him, hence them not being Christian.
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dronald
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But you do deny many of His Words. “I will build my Church” and “Baptize in the name of the Father, Son, Holy Spirit” means nothing to you.
We actually have a Qur’an dating from the 7th century with some textual variants. As you know many dialects of the Qur’an were burned and one was kept, so technically you’re wrong.
You’re right. The Gospel exchanged many hands and many different languages.
The thing is, this only speaks to the truth of the Gospel, and all the words within the Bible. When the Gospel was written (within the same century Jesus died by the way) and translated to Greek, it expanded East and West being translated into different languages. Now, one would expect that if people were changing the original words (which you must believe as a Muslim) some of the Gospels from the first century, written by the Apostles would be different.
The Gospel in Latin is the same as the Greek. This is quite telling. Textual criticism has proven the Gospel and the letters of the Apostles to be 95% accurate with some variants on spelling mistakes and some changes in words. An example of a change in a word would be “Jesus” vs “He”.
So one ancient document may read, “Jesus went down to Galilee” while another reads, “He then went down to Galilee.” Obviously the meaning remains the same. So we actually have proof that the Gospel is accurate today to the first century.
You also must ask the question of why the Apostles of Jesus would make up a story regarding the death of their Messiah. If they were going to make something up, it would be similar to the Islamic account; that Jesus was miraculously saved. Quite the contrary however, He does die while the Pharisees question, “Why doesn’t He save Himself” and they mock Him.
Islam is what the Jews truly expected of Jesus, however God never does things in a way we"d expect.
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Kaninchen
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Perhaps you might expand on why on earth Islam is what Jews would have expected?
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Kaninchen
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There does tend to be an assumption in these sorts of discussions that it’s up to non-believers to convince believers that the New Testament is ‘wrong’.
After all, for those of us for whom the New Testament is literature rather than scripture, the trilemma is merely a ‘lit crit’ issue - a bit like discussing the character of Caesar in Shakespeare.
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dronald
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The Jews of the time in the Bible while Jesus was being crucified. In no way would they believe or ever believe that their Messiah was going to be a man who would end up dead on a cross:
Matthew 27:39And those who passed by derided him, wagging their heads 40and saying, “You who would destroy the temple and rebuild it in three days, save yourself! If you are the Son of God, come down from the cross.”41 So also the chief priests, with the scribes and elders, mocked him, saying, 42 “He saved others; he cannot save himself. He is the King of Israel; let him come down now from the cross, and we will believe in him.43 He trusts in God; let God deliver him now, if he desires him. For he said, 'I am the Son of God. '”
This fits the Islamic narrative that Jesus was either saved before being crucified or saved on the cross. Basically Islam turned Jesus into what would be expected of a Messiah… I mean, why in the world would the Messiah die on a cross? The Jews then didn’t accept it and the Muslims now think similarly. The Messiah can’t be crucified.
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dronald
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The issue isn’t whether Jesus was the Son of God, it’s whether or not He claimed to be. Why anyone would think that the hundreds of references in the Gospels and letters referring to Jesus and Him referring to Himself as the Son of God was some late invention. Muslims claim that Jesus never made that claim and therefore wasn’t. I’m saying that Jesus certainly made that claim, but of course I cannot prove it’s true that He was.
30-60 years by the Jews who took their Faith so seriously they would be willing to die for it. Keep in mind 30-60 years is not very long in comparison to most historical accounts of anyone during that time or before. Regardless, even if they were wrong on some things (I don’t believe they were) did they all conspire and get wrong the Son of God claim? Very doubtful.
I’m speaking to a Muslim about the claims of Jesus here if the Gospel is real. How I would approach a discussion with an Atheist would be quite different.
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Kaninchen
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Or now for that matter - by the way, quoting the New Testament to a Jew in order to tell her what Jews at that time believed is not, perhaps, the most convincing approach.
Except that’s not what you said, you said that Islam is what Jews expected of Jesus. Obviously, I don’t think that the vast majority of Jews at the time expected anything of him at all but quite why they’d have expected ‘Islam’ is a rather confusing issue. The fact that Muslims partly agree with us about Jesus (not divine) doesn’t mean anything other than they partly agree with us about Jesus.
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dronald
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I actually made a point before saying such, and it was that if the Jewish writers of the NT wanted to make up a story about their Messiah then why not say Jesus never died?Or now for that matter - by the way, quoting the New Testament to a Jew in order to tell her what Jews at that time believed is not, perhaps, the most convincing approach.
Except that’s not what you said, you said that Islam is what Jews expected of Jesus. Obviously, I don’t think that the vast majority of Jews at the time expected anything of him at all but quite why they’d have expected ‘Islam’ is a rather confusing issue. The fact that Muslims partly agree with us about Jesus (not divine) doesn’t mean anything other than they partly agree with us about Jesus.
Why say their Messiah died on a cross? Where did they come up with this stuff if it was one big conspiracy?
I know you don’t agree with the Bible, nor do Muslims; but even Peter said “it could not be so” when Jesus predicted His death to which Jesus replied, “Get behind me Satan.”
It would be common thought that the Jewish Messiah would not die on a cross. The idea would be crazy then and Muslims have also latched onto this idea that Jesus couldn’t have died. Of course your beliefs are way different, but that’s not my point.
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Kaninchen
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Modern concepts like ‘conspiracy’ are rather anachronistic when talking about the kinds of processes that would have applied at the time. However, even a Christian might be puzzled at the remarkable ability of Jesus to ‘fulfil’ all sorts of supposed ‘prophesies’ in the Tanakh but only ones that can be ‘fulfilled’ textually and what that might mean about the way the New Testament was written and how a canon was arrived at.
Err? Only part of it, the bit that Christians tacked on the end of the Bible.
Well, you see, to us and, obviously, to Muslims . . . . it’s rather obvious - so it’s a matter of Christian diversion rather than Jewish/Muslim agreement.
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