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TypesAndShadows
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Servant has disengaged from this off-topic conversation within this thread. Are you able to move on as well? It looks like you have found more on-topic places to discuss this.
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Servant19
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Having made conversation with someone is not “knowing” them…
Having heard of someone during a previous conversation, does not mean you “know” them…
In your question, “Do you know so and so?” the word “know” is not being used correctly.
You are using the word “know” interchangeably with the word “acquainted”
In theological sense, the word “know” is borne out of the word “knowledge” which has connotations with comprehension and understanding.
Knowledge, in a theological sense, is a process of exploration and intimacy and infusion…
You can do as much exploration, infusing, etc with God, but you will never fully “know” Him because He will always be greater than you.
Of course, I know God, in that I am acquainted with Him. If someone asked me, “Do you know God?” I’ll say “Yeah, the Supreme Creator”
But this is not “KNOWLEDGE”, this is “ACQUAINTANCE”
…they should not be confused
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Servant19
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No I have no interest in His humanity. I am only interested in His Divinity…
This mortal world of dust and atoms are only transient. I am only interested in knowing and exploring the eternal.
That’s why I love St. Paul
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Servant19
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TypesAndShadows
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Of course having heard of someone is not the same as knowing them. If some asks me “do you know [so and so]?”, and I have merely heard of them, I say “No, but I’ve heard of them.”. If someone asks me “Do you know [so and so]?”, and they are someone I know in the very ordinary sense of knowing my friends and family, I say “Yes”. If you’re going to start arguing that ordinary common well-established meanings of English words are “wrong”, I think you may want to join a linguistics forum and see what people think!Having made conversation with someone is not “knowing” them…
Having heard of someone during a previous conversation, does not mean you “know” them…
In your question, “Do you know so and so?” the word “know” is not being used correctly.
You are using the word “know” interchangeably with the word “acquainted”
In theological sense, the word “know” is borne out of the word “knowledge” which has connotations with comprehension and understanding.
Knowledge, in a theological sense, is a process of exploration and intimacy and infusion…
You can do as much exploration, infusing, etc with God, but you will never fully “know” Him because He will always be greater than you.
Of course, I know God, in that I am acquainted with Him. If someone asked me, “Do you know God?” I’ll say “Yeah, the Supreme Creator”
But this is not “KNOWLEDGE”, this is “ACQUAINTANCE”
…they should not be confused
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I have been saying all along that this is not the same thing as knowledge or understanding. I think that was even in my very first post explaining why your objection didn’t make sense. I have been assuming that English is not your first language, and so you might not be familiar with the nuances of how the word “know” is used, but I really thought we had established this and got past it.
Are you really saying that if someone asks you, “Do you know [your mother]?”, you would reply with anything other than “Yes, she’s my mother.”?
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Servant19
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Yes, but this is acquaintance, not knowledge dear friend.
Do you not agree that knowledge is a process.
When you are at school, you acquire knowledge progressively. You say “I am learning biology”, not " I know biology"…you can however say “I am acquainted with biology”
These nuances are important distinctions…
English is my first language. I guess if you mentioned this in an earlier post, I may have missed it, my apologies…
Islam simply says that even the subject of biology is unlimited, and one can never know all that there is to know about biology. Now try to know God and you have a problem, this process never ends.
That’s all. Is that unreasonable to you?
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TypesAndShadows
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To what are you replying “no”?No I have no interest in His humanity. I am only interested in His Divinity…
This mortal world of dust and atoms are only transient. I am only interested in knowing and exploring the eternal.
That’s why I love St. Paul
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Are you simply asserting that you did not act astounded that I would claim that knowing Jesus involved knowing God? That you did not assume that knowing Jesus involved knowing only his human “aspect”, in your words? That you did not ask questions that suggested you expected me to consider Jesus less than God?
On top of that, are you suggesting the Baha’i belief is something akin to “the struggle between a good, spiritual world of light, and an evil, material world of darkness. Through an ongoing process which takes place in human history, light is gradually removed from the world of matter and returned to the world of light whence it came.”? While an ancient belief common especially around Iran, I’m assume you’re aware that this is also, unfortunately, an area where Christianity differs?
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Servant19
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You stated:
"…knowing Jesus involves only knowing his humanity, which is not what Catholics believe. "
To which I replied that I am only interested in His Divinity, but I guess I was a bit hasty in saying that.
I am interested in Jesus’ entire Being, humanity and Divinity, but I refer His Divine nature more…I too believe that knowing Jesus means that we can know God
Hope that clarifies things?
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TypesAndShadows
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But we never disagreed on whether it is possible to know everything about God, or whether it is possible to understand God. I have said, repeatedly, that Christianity agrees, and have repeatedly ask you to confirm that you understood this is not at all what is meant by saying Catholicism teaches that God is knowable, and Islam does not. You even confirmed that you understood that this was what I meant by knowing God, and that I was not talking about knowledge or understanding.
So, again, the difference is that Christianity says God can be known as one knows a friend, that we know Jesus who is God (completely, 100%) as one knows a friend, and that this is a belief that Muslims do not have about Jesus or about God. That in my experience Muslims will say that God cannot be known in this sense, because the nature of God (in their view) is that he cannot be known as one knows a friend, just as they would say that he cannot have a son or become flesh. This was based on my experience of conversations involving Muslims, although I was (repeatedly, this is easily seen in the posts you replied to) keen that any Muslims reading correct or comfirm this view.
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TypesAndShadows
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Well sure, although I’m not really sure what either statement has to do with the topic of conversation, which is that Catholic teaching on the Incarnation does not align nicely with Hindu teaching on avatars, although Baha’i teaching of course considers your take on Jesus to match your take on Hindu avatars. I had hoped you’d respond with more detail on precisely how you consider the Incarnation to workYou stated:
"…knowing Jesus involves only knowing his humanity, which is not what Catholics believe. "
To which I replied that I am only interested in His Divinity, but I guess I was a bit hasty in saying that.
I am interested in Jesus’ entire Being, humanity and Divinity, but I refer His Divine nature more…I too believe that knowing Jesus means that we can know God
Hope that clarifies things?
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If you believe that knowing Jesus means knowing God, I’m slightly confused on why you gave a somewhat sarcastic-looking reply to that idea expressing confusing.
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Servant19
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My friend, I would study some of the Sufi theologies. Allah is very much known as a friend.
Prophet Muhammad states:
and again:
God is definitely known as a loving friend in Islam.
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TypesAndShadows
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This would have been an excellent reply several pages ago
Thank you: this is interesting. I would still want to see a reply from an actual Muslim, because just because someone of another faith can pull out some verses from someone’s scriptures that gives some view, that doesn’t (in my experience) mean that this means you can tell what that faith actually teaches. For example, you could have insisted that Christians believe that Jesus is something other than God by pulling out that passage from John 14, but we know that this is not what Christians believe and teach.
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otterman
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I would agree that Muslims believe they worship a creator god, named as Allah, but this god is the god most familiar to Mohammed, whom he worshipped, before, and after he founded the Islamic faith.
The Islamic Allah does not have the same characteristics as the Bible God, Allah is not a Trinity (4:171; 5:73; 5:116); he is a Father to no one (5:18; 19:88-93; 21:26); he has no love for unbelievers (3:32)
All these assertions from Allah contradict the Gospel, but they are central to Christianity.
Christians have to accept Mohammed as a false prophet, the reason being because he came with a different message, and his actions did not comply with the Bible God’s commands.
The Bible warns us in Deuteronomy 13:1-5 and Galatians 1:6-9 as well as Jesus Himself to be aware of different messages and false prophets, because “they deceive many “
These are just a few of many reasons why Allah is not the Bible God, further investigation uncovers many more.
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Servant19
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I’m glad we found some points of harmony.This would have been an excellent reply several pages ago
Thank you: this is interesting. I would still want to see a reply from an actual Muslim, because just because someone of another faith can pull out some verses from someone’s scriptures that gives some view, that doesn’t (in my experience) mean that this means you can tell what that faith actually teaches. For example, you could have insisted that Christians believe that Jesus is something other than God by pulling out that passage from John 14, but we know that this is not what Christians believe and teach.
My job is done.
God bless you dear friend, it was fun exploring these themes and concepts together
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otterman
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Please would you give the link to show where these quotes are found.
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Servant19
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Sure
- Al-Baqra verse 257
- This one is from Al-Bukhari (can’t remember which part, its one I had memorised because I love the quote)
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otterman
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If you are a Christian, you have to accept Mohammed is a false prophet.
Why?
Why?
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otterman
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Thank you, if you could find the Al Bukhari reference it would be helpful.Sure
Heres another one:
- Al-Baqra verse 257
- This one is from Al-Bukhari (can’t remember which part, its one I had memorised because I love the quote)
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TypesAndShadows
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This was indeed interesting. I would still greatly appreciating you laying out in more detail how it is you personally believe Jesus’s divinity to work (that is, what you think it is, what you think it means), or more generally what the Baha’i view is. I’m aware that perhaps you’re reluctant to do this, as you worry that this might be a point of difference between us and your view may not match the Catholic one, but I think it would be far more interesting for us to understand where we differ. I find this makes the similarities more remarkable, and also helps us have a different perspective on our own beliefs.I’m glad we found some points of harmony.
My job is done.
God bless you dear friend, it was fun exploring these themes and concepts together
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Servant19
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I think our commonalities outweigh our differences dear friend
Maybe I could ask you to study this very thought provoking dialogue between myself and our dear brother Vouthon (you may or may not know him, but he is a Catholic who I admire, respect and love dearly). It eventually goes off topic, but maybe we could resume the dialogue and explore it together from where it left off?
That would be lovely
Here’s the link:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=871718&highlight=bahai+cosmology
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