How do Pentecostals and Catholics differ?

[ltwin]

Church buildings are silent witness of Christian faith in an area. Icons and statues of Jesus and Saints have its own importance. Showing the statue or picture of a crucified Jesus is more good and fruitful than a hundred speeches about crucification. It silently conveys message of crucification and exists in the mind of believers.

Regarding display of crosses, All ancient churches (Orthodox and Roman Catholicism ) have the tradition of displaying crosses in churches.

As I said above, I am not disputing the benefits of beautiful architecture and artwork nor am I disputing that they can convey the message of the Gospel. However, they are hardly necessary and their lack among some Pentecostals does not mean that we share with Satan a hatred for them as you have asserted.

 

[gtrenewed]

I think you misunderstand the poster. Maybe I can give some background and context.

Before the Charismatic Renewal began in Catholic Church and other traditional Christian communions, the Assemblies of God had aligned itself with Evangelicalism. As part of this alignment, it had wedded its theological understanding of the fullness of the Spirit to a theological and cultural context of baptistic evangelical theology and, by the 1950s, had emphasized certain doctrines and practices as requisite for Spirit baptism. Charismatics challenged these views by claiming to receive Holy Spirit baptism outside of this context (such as remaining in liturgical churches, failing to reject sacramental theologies, and not adopting Pentecostal taboos on dancing, drinking, smoking, etc.).

Therefore, the Charismatic Renewal challenged Pentecostals on what it meant to be Pentecostal. No longer could these historic churches be simply dismissed as “spiritually dead” because in fact the Holy Spirit was moving in those churches.

In short, Pentecostals had a Peter moment. It was humbling and a wake up call. We were forced to recognize that the Holy Spirit was not limited to our “Pentecostal” context and that indeed the wind of the Spirit does blow where it will. If God’s power was present in these churches than who are we to judge them as spiritually dead.

Thanks, that was a good explanation; however, I was not under a misunderstanding.

I am a cradle Catholic but left for a time following the baptism in the Holy Spirit. Most of that time was spent in and around the ASG. I was offered a pastorate several times and studied ASG courses. I am very familiar with both the rural and urban ASG churches.

I returned to the Catholic Church because most protestant churches lacked the understanding and were in disagreement concerning water baptism, communion, and salvation. By the mercies of God many protestants are on a path to salvation; however, the Catholic Church is the only true Church since its authority can be visibly traced back to Jesus. The dogmas of the Catholic Church are true; yet, protestants deny their validity. The protestant service is a modern fabrication while the Catholic service dates back to the earliest Christian times.

I understood your/poster point; I was pointing out that your/poster viewpoint was incorrect. Biblically, the Holy Spirit fell when prayed for by an Apostle. Due to the prayers of popes, todays apostles, in the late 1800’s and early 1900’s, for an outpouring of the Holy Spirit, the Lord sent the Holy Spirit to those who were desiring more, protestant and Catholic. The Holy Spirit renewal came because of the Catholic Church but was organized as the Catholic Charismatic Renewal much later.

I don’t mean this confrontationaly, only as a statement of historical fact. You think you are viewing the situation from a position of truth but in fact it is only the mercy of God that let’s you know Him outside of the visible bounds of the Catholic Church. So, it is not the CC that needs to unite with you but you with the CC in order to walk in the fulness of the Gospel. Because you are outside of the CC you are experiencing only part of the Gospel; even though you think you have it all.

This is really how we differ but praise God for His Mercy and Goodness.

 

[AmateurPianist]

The protestant service is a modern fabrication while the Catholic service dates back to the earliest Christian times.

Never mind…

 

[ufamtobie]

Yes, actually you do. Why was this? How many had to be tortured, jailed and burned at the stake for not conforming to Catholic dogma before German Princes protected the Reformers? Lets not short shift history here. Untold numbers of people tried to break from the church for centuries and most were killed and jailed.

“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”

John Adams

John Adams, Yes, actually i do have to say more, thank you: The Catholic Church can never error in its teachings, I repeat never error… Men may error, while in the Church, it started with Judas who betrayed the Lord. What did the Church do? They replaced Judas with another Apostle, therefore the Church fixed the Problem from within the Church thats how it should be done…

John, Martin Luther did not fix the Church from within. He did what he wanted to do and start a man made church not of God but Man, he took out books from the Bible and formed his bible that fitted his needs and wants for his church.

John, if Martin Luther did was correct in Jesus eyes and Jesus Christ was pleased then why since Martin Luther there started a domino effect of different churches popping up all over the place with different beliefs different teachings? This domino effect proves that Martin Luther was wrong.

The gates of hell can not prevail over the Church that guides us Jesus Christ would not allow it He made a promise to it! The priests like Luther, bishops, popes, the lay people etc. these can fail in the Church, but never the Church Teachings. This is why after 2000 years and counting it still stands with the same Teachings and the Lutheran church crumbled into over 30,000 thousand churches with different teachings. Why is that?

John, are you talking about the Crusades, actually it was the Muslims who wanted to convert the Catholics to their beliefs.

John, if you believe that the First and only Church Christ founded over 2000 years ago, need Martin Luther to start another, Then you believe that Christ lied and hell did prevail over the Catholic Church His first and only Church…

John, I pray for your return Home to the Catholic Faith.

Ufam Tobie

 

[gtrenewed]

Never mind…

I do not understand this post?

 

[andrewstx]

From what I understand what I was told by my Priest their view of the Holy Trinity is kind of like God has different costumes, not distinct persons unified in one Divine Essence.

That would be the United Pentecostal Church, which is just a subset of Pentecostalism.

The huge majority of Pentecostals are orthodox believers in the Holy Trinity.

 

[guanophore]

I do not understand this post?

I think that the member ran up against a brick wall, aka conversation stopper. There was a productive discussion in progress, but the insertion of a derogatory comment put a stop to the benefits.

 

[gtrenewed]

I think that the member ran up against a brick wall, aka conversation stopper. There was a productive discussion in progress, but the insertion of a derogatory comment put a stop to the benefits.

I wasn’t trying to stop or be derogatory. What was it in your view that I said?

If it was the “modern fabrication” comment I was merely stating a difference in each service which was big in bringing me back to the CC. Having been a pentecostal pastor and putting together the flow of the service, that is what I meant by modern.

If it was about coming together in unity, isn’t true that they must conform to the CC and not the CC conform to them?

Anyway your thoughts, thanks

 

[guanophore]

I wasn’t trying to stop or be derogatory. What was it in your view that I said?

If it was the “modern fabrication” comment I was merely stating a difference in each service which was big in bringing me back to the CC. Having been a pentecostal pastor and putting together the flow of the service, that is what I meant by modern.

Do you consider what you put together as a “fabrication”?

 

[ltwin]

I wasn’t trying to stop or be derogatory. What was it in your view that I said?

If it was the “modern fabrication” comment I was merely stating a difference in each service which was big in bringing me back to the CC. Having been a pentecostal pastor and putting together the flow of the service, that is what I meant by modern.

If it was about coming together in unity, isn’t true that they must conform to the CC and not the CC conform to them?

Anyway your thoughts, thanks

Are you saying that you attempted to “fabricate” the move of the Holy Spirit in your services? Or are you saying that as a former Pentecostal pastor you observed that there was a “flow” or a pattern to the service which led you to believe that in fact it was not being spontaneously directed by the Holy Spirit but was being led according to the actions of man? Just trying to understand your comments.

 

[guanophore]

Are you saying that you attempted to “fabricate” the move of the Holy Spirit in your services? Or are you saying that as a former Pentecostal pastor you observed that there was a “flow” or a pattern to the service which led you to believe that in fact it was not being spontaneously directed by the Holy Spirit but was being led according to the actions of man? Just trying to understand your comments.

Thank you Itwin. You formulated my question also.

 

[gtrenewed]

Do you consider what you put together as a “fabrication”?

Of course. I came up with (fabricated) the outline of the service:
2pm service starts; there has to be a published starting time;
welcoming comments;
opening prayer;
reading of a psalm and short teaching;
praise in song;
sermon;
invite for prayer;
communion once a month;
dismissal;
fellowship meal.

The service typically lasted two hours. I always was open to the moving of the Holy Spirit at each step so the order and length may change.

 

[gtrenewed]

Are you saying that you attempted to “fabricate” the move of the Holy Spirit in your services? Or are you saying that as a former Pentecostal pastor you observed that there was a “flow” or a pattern to the service which led you to believe that in fact it was not being spontaneously directed by the Holy Spirit but was being led according to the actions of man? Just trying to understand your comments.

Of course not! The Holy Spirit was never scripted when I led a service. However, many pentecostal services I attended were very much scripted and predictable in “moves of the Holy Spirit” and I have attended many where there were true moves.

As I explained to g-phore, I created (fabricated) the outline but the Holy Spirit could move at any point including completely rearranging or dropping the order.

Let me clear something up here:
fabricate has two definitions. One is simply constructing something and the other with deceitful intent. I meant simply constructing a service. My apologies for using a word that could be confused. But that is why I was disappointed with the poster who simply said “never mind” automatically assuming the worse. Thank you for trying to understand my comments.

 

[jerry_joseph]

John Adams, Yes, actually i do have to say more, thank you: The Catholic Church can never error in its teachings, I repeat never error… Men may error, while in the Church, it started with Judas who betrayed the Lord. What did the Church do? They replaced Judas with another Apostle, therefore the Church fixed the Problem from within the Church thats how it should be done…

John, Martin Luther did not fix the Church from within. He did what he wanted to do and start a man made church not of God but Man, he took out books from the Bible and formed his bible that fitted his needs and wants for his church.

John, if Martin Luther did was correct in Jesus eyes and Jesus Christ was pleased then why since Martin Luther there started a domino effect of different churches popping up all over the place with different beliefs different teachings? This domino effect proves that Martin Luther was wrong.

The gates of hell can not prevail over the Church that guides us Jesus Christ would not allow it He made a promise to it! The priests like Luther, bishops, popes, the lay people etc. these can fail in the Church, but never the Church Teachings. This is why after 2000 years and counting it still stands with the same Teachings and the Lutheran church crumbled into over 30,000 thousand churches with different teachings. Why is that?

John, are you talking about the Crusades, actually it was the Muslims who wanted to convert the Catholics to their beliefs.

John, if you believe that the First and only Church Christ founded over 2000 years ago, need Martin Luther to start another, Then you believe that Christ lied and hell did prevail over the Catholic Church His first and only Church…

John, I pray for your return Home to the Catholic Faith.

Ufam Tobie

Actually crusades are a defense against invasion on christian countries by muslims. When muslims started attacking and conquering non muslim nations under the pet name “Jihad”, Christians in Europe unitedly stood against this and blocked their invasions. We can see similar defense in other countries also. For eg: King Pritvi Raj Chouhan and Chathrapathi Shivaji of India. They defended Mugal muslim attacks inoder to protect their hindu culture and religion.

Ok What happened is past. Both muslims and catholics can point out so many justifications from their sides and can point out so many faults from other’s side. It is a matter of past. Which is happened before centuries. But it is important that not to repeat such faults from both sides and to start a new culture of Love.

 

[guanophore]

Of course. I came up with (fabricated) the outline of the service:
2pm service starts; there has to be a published starting time;
welcoming comments;
opening prayer;
reading of a psalm and short teaching;
praise in song;
sermon;
invite for prayer;
communion once a month;
dismissal;
fellowship meal.

The service typically lasted two hours. I always was open to the moving of the Holy Spirit at each step so the order and length may change.

Thanks for clarifying. It seems that the word you used “modern fabrication” did not mean to you what they meant to the other member. I am not sure 'fabrication" is the best word for this. The order of the service you are describing really has quite ancient roots. Christian order of service has its origins in the ancient Jewish synagogue service. Early Catholics adapted it to include liturgy of Eucharist, but if you ever go to a synagogue service, you will find the roots of the Mass. The order of service you claim to have “fabricated” is quite similar to what Justin Martyr describes the early church using in the 2nd century.

Clearly if you are open to the movement of the HS then you are not "fabricating’ (making up yourself) everything that happens.

 

[gtrenewed]

Thanks for clarifying. It seems that the word you used “modern fabrication” did not mean to you what they meant to the other member. I am not sure 'fabrication" is the best word for this. The order of the service you are describing really has quite ancient roots. Christian order of service has its origins in the ancient Jewish synagogue service. Early Catholics adapted it to include liturgy of Eucharist, but if you ever go to a synagogue service, you will find the roots of the Mass. The order of service you claim to have “fabricated” is quite similar to what Justin Martyr describes the early church using in the 2nd century.

Clearly if you are open to the movement of the HS then you are not "fabricating’ (making up yourself) everything that happens.

Yeah, bad choice of wording. Interestingly, I began trying to make the communion service more meaningful. I felt the real presence of Jesus in communion was scripturely correct but that was not supported by the pentecostals.

I found myself constantly defending water baptism for the forgiveness of sins and the real presence of Jesus in communion. That is when I started checking into the ECF’s and how they felt about it. I suppose that is why I said the mass was ancient and a protestant service more modern starting following the reformation. Your explanation above was helpful to see the ancient roots of that type of service.

 

[Ant0613]

I just don’t understand Pentecostal beliefs on baptism. As a catholic we are born into sin but as a baby we are baptized. When we are born, we are born into a catholic family who raise us to know right from wrong. We are raised to accept Jesus christ as our savior. But as Pentecostals they are born agains? Are they not raised believing in Jesus christ? So does this mean they can do whatever they want until there saved and all there sins are washed away? How many times are they born?

 

[ltwin]

I just don’t understand Pentecostal beliefs on baptism. As a catholic we are born into sin but as a baby we are baptized. When we are born, we are born into a catholic family who raise us to know right from wrong. We are raised to accept Jesus christ as our savior. But as Pentecostals they are born agains? Are they not raised believing in Jesus christ? So does this mean they can do whatever they want until there saved and all there sins are washed away? How many times are they born?

I’m a lifelong Pentecostal, born and raised. Perhaps I can clear things up for you.

I was born in 1989. While still an infant my parents dedicated me back to God in front of our entire church. From the time I was born I was raised in a Christian home by Christian parents. I remember fondly being read children’s versions of Bible stories at bedtime by my father. There was never a time as a child when I wasn’t in church. We were in church Sunday mornings 9AM to 1 PM and then on Sunday evenings from 7PM to God knows when. If we had a knock down drag out service it could be midnight before we got home. The same for Wednesday nights. As a Pentecostal child, you get used to sleeping under the pews. We had Sunday schools, Bible schools, etc. I was saturated with the Christian religion as a child.

It was my parent’s greatest hope that I and my siblings would come to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ. I did when I was 10 years old and knelt at the altar and made Jesus lord and savior of my life. It wasn’t like i didn’t believe in God before then. I did, but that Sunday in church, Jesus became real to me. I awakened to the realization of what my parents, family, and church had been teaching me all my life. That day, I put my faith in Christ. I was born again and a new creation.

I was water baptized when I was like 19 or 20. It was such an amazing experience that I can’t even describe it. But that wasn’t when I was born again, that was an outward sign of an inward change that had already taken place in my life years ago when I was a little 10 year old boy kneeling at an altar.

Pentecostals believe that if we confess our sins, God is faithful to forgive us. When I was born again, I confessed that I was a sinner and I asked Jesus to forgive me of my sins. He did, but that didn’t mean I could just do whatever I wanted after that. I’m in my 20s now and I still go to God daily confessing my sins and asking for his forgiveness.

Pentecostals also believe in an experience of empowerment called baptism with the Holy Spirit. We believe that this experience (which is received by asking Christ for it in faith) is the same experience that the disciples received on the day of Pentecost. We believe this equips us for the work and ministry that Christ has called all within his church to accomplish.

The baptism with the Holy Spirit is separate from both the born again experience and water baptism, but they can happen simultaneously. So it is possible that a person is born again, receives the Spirit baptism, and is water baptized all in the same day. Many times, however, the 3 experiences will occur at different times.

We believe that no one should be water baptized who has not made a confession of faith in Christ. This rules out infant baptism. We also believe that for one to receive Spirit baptism, they must already be born again. Spirit baptism is being filled with the Spirit, but for that to happen, the Spirit must already be dwelling inside the believer. Thus being born again is the starting point for the spiritual life of the Pentecostal.