How do people who use contraception go to confession?

[InThePew]

If I may pose one more question: To what extent is a layperson expected by the Church to engage in fraternal correction? If one happens to see someone doing something wrong they bring it up directly to that person? Should one actively seek out people who are living in sin and try to evangelize? At what point does it become a sin to—for lack of better word—“allow” someone to continue to sin without saying anything about it? At what point does a person overstep bounds by correcting someone?

Fraternal correction is something which can mean many different things to many different people - on the one hand, it can refer to a sincere desire to help those strayed by accompanying them gently back; on the other, it can be code for smug self-righteousness and general stone throwing from the sidelines! Each person’s struggles are personal to them - no one knows another’s burden, which is why we (including priests) need to be careful about jumping in to “rescue” someone from themselves and their own sinfulness. Telling them they’re going to go to hell is likewise unhelpful (if not also possibly untrue). At the same time, while it’s not up to us to judge others for their sins, we also have a duty to help others by walking alongside them (rather than telling them where they should be and aren’t) and patiently accompanying them in their struggles and weaknesses mindful always that we too are in need of others’ help since no-one can be saved by themselves, otherwise when we got to heaven God would say “where are the others?” Most of all for this to happen requires us to build a relationship with the other person - something which requires patience, time and trust.

 

[HomeschoolDad]

Perhaps, but try telling anyone in the secular world that they are going to have to modify their sexual behavior, and cut back or even entirely cease having sex, and see what happens.

You know, upon reflection, I have to agree with you on one point. No, not all secular people are “barnyard animals in heat”, clearly not. Some are asexual (I have heard that one percent of all people are this way), some have muted or attenuated sexual desires due to age, illness, surgery, psychological makeup, or just the naturally occurring differences in people, and the anecdotal evidence suggests that women in general are more capable of continence for extended periods than men are. Some people never have sex in their entire lives and are perfectly okay with that.

I was referring to those who do desire to have sex, and who have normal desires consonant with their age and gender. If they do, and if for some reason they are told than they cannot or should not have sex, or cannot seek sexual gratification in any manner whatsoever, this is a major crisis for many. The young men in the online “incel” movement are an extreme example of this. In times past, and I am not recommending or condoning this, an allowance was made for men, who could not “get sex” any other way (or just chose not to), to visit prostitutes instead. If I am not mistaken, even Augustine and Aquinas spoke of this as the lesser of two evils (the other evil being the violation of maidens), and that this could be tolerated to avert greater evil.

Second, I’d be pretty peeved if if another Catholic took interest in what I was doing in the bedroom and asked me to stop or “modify [my] sexual behavior.”

Aside from teaching my son the virtue of chastity and continence, and admonishing him not to allow one of these young women out here in the world to get him to do something stupid with tragic secular consequences as well as spiritual — something that happened in my own extended family — I am not going to be telling anyone to “modify their sexual behavior”. I can only echo the traditional teachings of the Church, and encourage other people to know and to follow them. I am not interested in “what people do in the bedroom”, but as I said above, I do want people to save their souls — I cannot be indifferent to this, and I do not want to be indifferent to this. I can’t fathom anyone thinking otherwise. I know this society exalts the concept of “minding one’s own business”, but I do not take my cues from the larger society, I take them from Our Lord and His teaching Church.

 

[babochka]

If I am not mistaken, even Augustine and Aquinas spoke of this as the lesser of two evils (the other evil being the violation of maidens), and that this could be tolerated to avert greater evil.

I would very much like to see evidence of this, if this is true. To me, this would be along the same lines of tolerating contraception to avoid the evil of abortion.

 

[HomeschoolDad]

If I am not mistaken, even Augustine and Aquinas spoke of this as the lesser of two evils (the other evil being the violation of maidens), and that this could be tolerated to avert greater evil.

I know, it surprised me too. It seems counter-intuitive. Here is some source material:

https://www.catholic.com/magazine/online-edition/what-does-the-church-teach-about-prostitution

Female Prostitution in Costa Rica

This book analyzes the development of female prostitution in the Pacific port of Puntarenas, Costa Rica during the advanced stage of the coffee exporting economy (1880-1930), at the height of the consolidation of the liberal state. Hayes argues that prostitution in the port differed from that of...

books.google.com

 

[blackforest]

In times past, and I am not recommending or condoning this , an allowance was made for men, who could not “get sex” any other way (or just chose not to), to visit prostitutes instead.

Honestly? There are married men who feel as entitled as unmarried men to sex-on-tap. Historically and currently, married men are at least equally prone to patronizing prostitutes. But whether or not these men are married, it’s a rotten way to treat women. We can probably agree on that point.

I am not interested in “what people do in the bedroom”, but as I said above, I do want people to save their souls

Nobody with a conscience wants to see otherwise decent people end up in hell. It’s just that to us mortals, “saving souls” is impossible to quantify. Somebody could be sexually chaste and end up accountable for other sins against God and others. As I’ve stated before, sin occurs within the context of our relationship with God and others. Only God knows. All we can do is pray.

 

[babochka]

babochka:

If I am not mistaken, even Augustine and Aquinas spoke of this as the lesser of two evils (the other evil being the violation of maidens), and that this could be tolerated to avert greater evil.

I know, it surprised me too. It seems counter-intuitive. Here is some source material:

What Does the Church Teach About Prostitution? | Catholic Answers
Female Prostitution in Costa Rica: Historical Perspectives, 1880-1930 - Anne Hayes - Google Books

. In times past, and I am not recommending or condoning this , an allowance was made for men, who could not “get sex” any other way (or just chose not to), to visit prostitutes instead.

The information you quoted does not exactly allow for men who can’t get sex any other way to visit prostitutes. This seems to be a serious misinterpretation of what St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas say on the matter.

This was interesting to read and a good reminder that even great saints such as Augustine and Aquinas are products of their times and not infallible.

Thankfully, as with so many other things, the Church has responded to greater scientific and psychological insights as to reject this idea, in favor of the reality of exploitation of the human person that is part and parcel of the sex industry.

 

[HomeschoolDad]

In times past, and I am not recommending or condoning this , an allowance was made for men, who could not “get sex” any other way (or just chose not to), to visit prostitutes instead.

And we do agree.

Many prostitutes are exploited and some are even, for all practical purposes, enslaved. From what I understand, it is a line of work that attracts those with few or no other choices, certainly none as lucrative. Human trafficking is rampant. Some of them are imprisoned in the brothels and are working off exorbitant debts to loan sharks. I have heard that some other of these women, while not exploited or forced — they do it of their own free will — are driven by the idea that they can make a small fortune in a fairly short period of time, then return to a more respectable lifestyle with a nice “nest egg” to show for it.

It’s a horrible social phenomenon, regardless of whatever other “evils” it might “avert”. Aside from the grave sinfulness of it, it violates the human dignity of all concerned, including the “johns”. The Scandinavian countries and France have the right approach — don’t penalize the women, penalize their clients.

Thankfully, if condoms are used, at least abortifacient contraception is not resorted to, or rather, it is not relied upon as the sole means to prevent pregnancy. and would almost never be an issue. Put another way, no babies get killed. At least using condoms mitigates the possibility of spreading disease as well. Not condoning, just stating the fact.

In times past, and I am not recommending or condoning this , an allowance was made for men, who could not “get sex” any other way (or just chose not to), to visit prostitutes instead.

As I said, “… or just chose not to”. I don’t know what “incels” did back in the day. Probably what they do (or don’t do) now, with the added fillip of having prostitutes available legally if they chose that route.

 

[phantom197676]

Here’s a question.

Wife is on birth control, husband has asked her he wishes her to come off for reasons of religion. She says that she will just not right now, is he too expected to confess this? Clearly he can’t force her to stop the birth control, so does he in fact have anything to confess in this case?

 

[HomeschoolDad]

Here’s a question.

Wife is on birth control, husband has asked her he wishes her to come off for reasons of religion. She says that she will just not right now, is he too expected to confess this? Clearly he can’t force her to stop the birth control, so does he in fact have anything to confess in this case?

I would ultimately defer to a priest on this, but my thinking is:

• if he has, up to this point, agreed to her use of the contraceptive, and not resisted her using it, he would need to confess that
• but going forward, he is innocent of any sin, in that he has resolved to quit contracepting, but he can’t get his wife to go along with that right now and quit using the contraceptive herself

The way it was explained to me (by a priest), the innocent partner always has a right to relations, even with an intransigent contracepting partner. I would add that if the contraceptive is also abortifacient, that would put another coloration on it entirely. You can not consent to the contraceptive effect, but you can’t prevent the abortifacient side-effect.

This priest did tell me that he could never recommend I marry anyone with that understanding — “you use contraception if you feel you have to, I’ll just have no part of it” — in that given my “strong feelings” about the matter, such an understanding would destroy my marriage.

 

[Jen7]

Many prostitutes are exploited

I believe that should be “all prostitutes…” Even if they consent, they are still consenting to being exploited. It’s like saying “many victims of domestic abuse are abused.” Even if they choose to stay in the abusive situation, they are ALL still being abused. I understand some men use women and excuse it by saying the woman consented. But that is irrelevant when it come so to the usury of women. Whether they allow it or not, it’s exploitation.

 

[HomeschoolDad]

Many prostitutes are exploited

I had in mind those who have been interviewed, and claimed that they knew what they were doing, viewed it as a way to accumulate a massive sum of money in a matter of a few years, and did not mind doing it — some even claim to enjoy it. They appear to be entirely in control of the action and, I hate to say it, they are incredibly empowered women. I do not for one second endorse what they do, and I am not suggesting that they are “virtuous” in any way, shape, or fashion. But it seems to me that for these women, it is the men who are being exploited — spending vast sums of cash, and being enticed to visit these women by their own lust and passion. Young women who find for themselves “sugar daddies” — and who are, for all practical purposes, glorified prostitutes — are also in charge of their situation, selling their charms and beauty to men who frequently couldn’t command this kind of attention and superficial “loyalty” from a beautiful young woman any other way. It is a dream come true for the men, and highly lucrative for the women.

Sadly, it is far more common for women in this “profession” to be exploited and, as I said, virtually enslaved. The indignities they have to endure are horrifying.

 

[Jen7]

I had in mind those who have been interviewed, and claimed that they knew what they were doing, viewed it as a way to accumulate a massive sum of money in a matter of a few years, and did not mind doing it — some even claim to enjoy it.

I feel like you’re telling me about some type of mythical creature I have never seen before. I have a very hard time wrapping my brain around a woman genuinely feeling the way you describe. I suppose if they say it’s how they feel, it’s true… but I have to think a huge amount of pain, heartache, sense of loss, and damage occurred to get a woman to the place where she “commands” sex and manipulates men for money. What is the long-term prognosis for these women? I probably don’t want to know. It’s heartbreaking to think about.

 

[Psalm30]

I have a very hard time wrapping my brain around a woman genuinely feeling the way you describe. I suppose if they say it’s how they feel, it’s true… but I have to think a huge amount of pain, heartache, sense of loss, and damage occurred to get a woman to the place where she “commands” sex and manipulates men for money. What is the long-term prognosis for these women? I probably don’t want to know. It’s heartbreaking to think about.

This is just coming from my experience of binge watching Law & Order: SVU on my phone for the two hours that my two-year-old would nap in my arms (man, I miss those days). But even if a woman “voluntarily” goes into prostitution, it is likely that she came from an abusive family—one where she didn’t experience unconditional love—and felt she had nowhere else to go. There are a lot of complicated issues and many factors that no one can really know unless they’ve walked a mile in the person’s shoes. All the more reason to approach people with compassion.

 

[blackforest]

I had in mind those who have been interviewed, and claimed that they knew what they were doing, viewed it as a way to accumulate a massive sum of money in a matter of a few years, and did not mind doing it — some even claim to enjoy it. They appear to be entirely in control of the action and, I hate to say it, they are incredibly empowered women.

If a woman can get into prostitution whenever she wants and get out of it whenever she wants, then it’s a situation of free will - not a choice I condone, but free will.

I strongly suspect that the majority of sex workers are not in this position and are instead coerced into the trade through poverty, trafficking, threats of violence from the p**mps, or the imprisonment of addiction. For these reasons, I agree with you that it’s usually a case of exploitation.

I feel like you’re telling me about some type of mythical creature I have never seen before. I have a very hard time wrapping my brain around a woman genuinely feeling the way you describe.

There are women in Nevada making these claims. There’s also a notorious, shan’t-be-named blogger who claims to be in that profession and, frankly, has her head in the sand about trafficking and coercion. As I expressed to @HomeschoolDad, however, I believe these are the exception and not the norm.

 

[PetraG]

Is anybody on this thread in any way discussing their own moral dilemmas, or has this been conjecture about something that no one here actually has to deal with?

In other words, what was the good intendend and/or accomplished by the discussion so far? Should I read through all these many posts or should I save my time?

 

[hoping4more]

lol? God knows your heart. If you did that will full knowledge and somehow thought there would be only one tough confession and no worries afterward; then yeah, you are probably not forgiven, you know, in the going to heaven sense.

Be careful!

 

[Jen7]

There are women in Nevada making these claims.

Well… I wouldn’t personally take them as applicable beyond the few making the claims. Even there… I have a hard time believing them personally. Who wants to be chewed up and spit out? Haven’t there been famous women in the past who, late in life before death regretted their choices to engage in lifelong licentiousness. At the end of the day, even if you are rich, you are bereft of personal intimacy and probably loaded with STDs. That just doesn’t sound amazing even if some women are claiming that right now they feel empowered or something…

 

[hoping4more]

look at my very first posts.

wife had breast cancer, pregnancy could mean its return…

Mentally, at least, I would go without, completely, but she would consider it divorce-able offense. I am not going to insist on NFP because; 1) it is not possible with her medication and 2) 95% sure is still irresponsible to her and any child that might come (her medicine will have a lot of complications if the child would even live).

I avoid asking her for it and go to confession often(ish).
I pray often God will deliver us from this spiritual and, not to mention, physical health, dilemma.

 

[Jen7]

Is anybody on this thread in any way discussing their own moral dilemmas,

I don’t think so.

 

[HomeschoolDad]

I feel like you’re telling me about some type of mythical creature I have never seen before. I have a very hard time wrapping my brain around a woman genuinely feeling the way you describe.

This is exactly what I am referring to. The legal brothels near the large gaming cities in Nevada seek to attract those men who have suddenly fallen into large sums of cash through their winnings (and some people just have that kind of disposable income), and are flush not only with cash, but with booze, possibly illicit pharmaceuticals, and certainly lust (or possibly just a “YOLO” mentality). There are women who make the free and rational (though gravely sinful) decision to meet demand with supply, so to speak. It’s a scenario as old as the world.

Is anybody on this thread in any way discussing their own moral dilemmas,

I shared mine — selfish use of NFP, and even, though I hate to admit it, every once in a while falling into acts contraceptive by their nature. I can’t speak for anyone else.

I realize there are some who maintain that any use of NFP has to be assumed licit and virtuous, regardless of reasons, regardless of duration, and as I have said elsewhere, I would happily welcome a clarification and amplification of Pius XII’s comments to the Italian midwives. It could take the form of something like “in view of the necessities and conditions in the modern world, especially in advanced post-industrial societies where the cost of living makes large families impossible for many to contemplate, the use of NFP should be regarded as licit and reflective of a spirit of sacrifice, unless there are abundant, serious reasons to think otherwise”. I don’t think that’s asking too much of the teaching Church. And as others have pointed out here, many people would welcome clearer and more emphatic guidance from the Church on the matter of birth regulation.