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PetraG
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Well, I’m not going to choose to read the thread, but I’ll hope some good is coming of it, somehow.
(That was a lot of posts.)
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How do people who use contraception go to confession?
- Thread starter HomeschoolDad
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(That was a lot of posts.)
Read whatever you wish. This has been a discussion, and a very good one, all in all, about a subject that (and may God be my witness) desperately needed to be discussed, that you seldom hear discussed, that some people do not want to see discussed, and that is an “elephant in the parlor” if there ever were such a thing. Raising consciousness about issues where the greater glory of God, the greater sanctification of souls, and possibly even the very salvation of souls, is at stake, is never a bad thing.
If only one person has profited from the discussion, then it’s been all to the good. Read, or don’t read, as you see fit.
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PetraG
Guest
The moral dilemmas not faced by anyone here actually in the discussion desperately need to be discussed? I’m going to have to believe you on that. I’m not going to concede that a discussion is “all to the good” if only one thing can be counted on the positive side of the ledger, but I’ll join you in hoping the bottom line is in the black, yes.
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Yes, they do. The participants are not the only ones reading the discussion. These discussions are archived on CAF, and anyone in the world with a computer can read them or not, as they see fit. If someone looks at it for a few minutes, sees it as a waste of their time, murmurs that those are minutes of their life they’ll never get back, so be it. That’s on them.
I think it’s time well spent, myself. Kind of like a 21st-century interactive cyber-version of Radio Replies, a set of books I found valuable beyond measure in my own catechesis. Again, read or don’t read, as you see fit.
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MiserereMeiDei
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If the Church stopped teaching that we needed the Sacrament of Penance, would you discourage people from teaching others about it? This attitude makes no sense.
I believe the OP has taken the idea of fraternal correction to the extreme. He speculates about what people say in Confession. He expects priests to ask penitents why they don’t have any children. He wants objective reasons to use NFP. He wants priests to sit down with people and tell them “You are not going to use contraception. This is the way it’s going to be and you aren’t going to give your spouse any grief about it.”Psalm30:
If the Church stopped teaching that we needed the Sacrament of Penance, would you discourage people from teaching others about it? This attitude makes no sense.
I do appreciate his concern for people’s immortal souls, I really do. I just don’t agree with his method of achieving his goals. If you think all of the above is a good and right and holy way to go about things, we shall agree to disagree.
OP here. Comments:
- As far as “what people say in confession”, I doubt that it comes up all that much. Those who contracept and don’t intend to stop, just don’t confess it. They either don’t think it’s a sin, or they do, and they make bad confessions. Some can’t handle the cognitive dissonance of it all, and just don’t go to confession in the first place. The priests don’t ask. We’ve heard on here several reasons why they don’t. And those who don’t practice ABC have nothing to confess. I don’t think it’s any more complicated than that.
- I don’t think there’s anything wrong with a priest commenting on a penitent’s childlessness, or in my case, asking “why so long?” when he knew my age and the age of my son. I just don’t find those sort of questions offensive. If a priest had asked me, anytime during those 14 years when we didn’t have children, “why not?”, I wouldn’t have been offended. Forced to explain myself, yes. Forced to ask myself if our reasons weren’t sufficient, yes. Convicted, perhaps. But not offended. And if the priest had said something like “well, consider that you may not always be able to have a child, and recall God’s command to ‘be fruitful and multiply’, only you and your wife can make that decision, I just offer this as food for thought — you know, God did not give us the wonderful gift of NFP just so we could stay childless for life”, what in the world would be wrong with that? No withholding absolution, no judgment, no accusation — just spiritual guidance and gentle advice.
- I fully realize that the Church cannot draw up a list of “one size fits all” reasons to use, or not to use NFP. As I said above, perhaps all that is needed, is a reiteration of Pius XII’s comments, and a recognition of conditions in the modern world as well as acknowledgement that NFP is intrinsically sacrificial to some extent (maybe to a great extent for some). That’s all.
- Perhaps the priest having a “come to Jesus moment” with the intransigent spouse isn’t the thing to do, but I would like to see some way for such spouses to have to answer to a third party for, as I said above, spiritually brutalizing the innocent spouse — perhaps a counselor or social worker? I find it abhorrent that a woman would have to suffer in silence, having no one to “stick up for her”, while her husband makes her administer a contraceptive to herself and forces her to compromise her conscience. What’s he going to do if she refuses? Leave her? Step out on her? Beat her? If he feels so strongly that a contraceptive has to be used, let him be the one to use it — go out and buy some condoms. At least then, there is no question of her having sinned.
And there is something else that must be said. I briefly touched on this above, but keep in mind that non-Catholics, some of them openly hostile to the Faith and to the Church, can look at us and challenge us on this. We may have this “etiquette”, for lack of a better word, of treating it as a “private matter”, not even giving so much as a thought to what anyone else in the Church does besides ourselves, never suggesting that it could be an issue, priests not mentioning it, basically treating it as a topic not for discussion, offering NFP classes and telling ourselves that all is right with the world.
But non-Catholics aren’t looking at us so benignly, and it could well become fodder to use against us, to poke fun at us, and to say things about us that we don’t say (or don’t want to say) about ourselves.
But non-Catholics aren’t looking at us so benignly, and it could well become fodder to use against us, to poke fun at us, and to say things about us that we don’t say (or don’t want to say) about ourselves.
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VanitasVanitatum
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On CAF it certainly is.
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QwertyGirl
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This is a problem. I suggest you reconsider your views of “authority” . What you express here is not what the Church requires. I would suggest your view is not a healthy one, for Church or individuals. Two spouses in a marriage are accountable only to each other, and God if they believe in Him, with regards to these matters being discussed. Where do you draw the line with regards to intimacy in the relationship. Why do you think a third party, such as a priest, should be inserted in that? If a couple seeks out a priests advice, then that is one thing. But what you are suggesting is obligatory disclosure. If you were my spouse, you wouldn’t be for long, if you had that attitude.
A man and a woman marry each other. It isn’t a threesome.
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I concede that the way you put it here doesn’t sound as bad as it did in another post. However, I do feel the need to point out that a common theme in some of your posts is “It wouldn’t bother me.”
I wouldn’t have been offended.
I would have appreciated it.
I don’t think it’s a problem.
I understand it wouldn’t be a problem for you. And you are entitled to feel the way you do. But there are people for whom it would be a problem. I’m thankful to say that I’ve never personally experienced the pain of infertility or miscarriage or childlessness. But I know people who have, and it’s a very painful thing to go through. I imagine that priests understand this and I really do believe they are doing their job correctly. Also, consider that a priest asking penitents why they don’t have children could backfire and not achieve the result you want. If a woman who has just experienced her third miscarriage, and is very distraught and not thinking clearly, goes to Confession and the priest asks her “Why no children?” she may be so upset by it she stops going to Confession and even considers leaving the Church. What then?
If a spouse is indeed getting beaten, there are bigger issues than contraception. Any spouse who is being abused should go to the police and have someone intervene. Marriage counseling is definitely in order for couples who differ strongly on serious issues, even if there is no abuse. I’ve had some bad experiences with the counselors I’ve been to, but one thing they all had in common was that they bent over backward to respect my religious beliefs. What you describe here as far as counselors and social workers intervening for “bullied” spouses does exist. I’m not sure why you think it doesn’t.
As I mentioned up thread, if someone else brings it up, you can discuss it and defend it all you want. But initiating a discussion with people about why they don’t have children or other personal aspects of marriage can be a bad idea, for a variety of reasons. I also don’t personally think it’s good to sit around wondering what people other than ourselves do in the Confessional.
To be completely fair to @HomeschoolDad the Catholic view of marriage is that it is indeed a “threesome” — a husband and wife with Christ at the center of their union. The Church speaks on behalf of Christ, and a husband and wife are indeed accountable to the Church for certain things in order for their marriage to be recognized as a valid marriage. One of those things is openness to procreation. The Church will not recognize a marriage as valid if a couple has a permanent intention against children, even if they are using NFP (not contraception) to avoid children completely.
I would welcome more discussion about such things in pre-Cana. When my husband and I went through it, there was very, very little mention of the subject, other than “Are you open to having children?” and “Make an appointment with our parish NFP instructor.” I will concede to HomeschoolDad that the Church could do a better job in this regard in the context of marriage preparation.
That said, if people have been properly instructed in marriage preparation, I’m not sure it’s a good idea to “keep tabs” on individual married couples as far as whether they have children or not. There are too many reasons other than contraception or immoral use of NFP that a couple may be childless. If, prior to getting married, couples have been properly taught why openness to children is not optional in marriage, I think such things should remain between the spouses, and God. Same as with any other sin, we can teach people why something is wrong, but we all have free will to choose to follow or not follow the teachings.
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VanitasVanitatum
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This isn’t the whole Church which makes it unideal to talk about since everyone already knows.
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maryjk
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Offensive, no.
Hurtful, possibly.
You are coming from a position if one of the spouses using contraception.
What if you weren’t? What if you had been trying to get pregnant? Of had been pregnant a few times? Or knew that you couldn’t get pregnant? How many different priests would it take before those questions would start to wear on you?
I can tell you, for me? One. That’s it.
We did experience a miscarriage, probably more than one, but only one where we knew we were pregnant. I baptized her with my own hands (or attempted to, there were no discernible remains).
I’m reminded here of the scene with the grocery store clerk in Terms of Endearment, “you must be from New York”. Perhaps, where religious or spiritual matters are concerned, I am, indeed, “from New York”, figuratively speaking. (Incidentally, New Yorkers are not rude, they just deal with people in their day-to-day lives as the environment dictates. But not to digress.)
I am well aware such counseling does exist. I would very much like to know that a spouse who is being browbeaten into administering contraception to oneself (as opposed to merely being forced to acquiesce while the other spouse uses it) can get a fair hearing from a neutral third party such as a counselor. What I don’t think is right, is for the injured spouse to have to suffer in silence and submit to their partner’s sinful demands.
How would it be if the injured spouse were being forced to perform unnatural acts for the gratification of the partner? (I’m sure that does happen in some marriages.) What makes those unnatural acts different from being forced to use contraception? Didn’t Paul VI condemn contraception as contrary to the natural law?
They most certainly could. Thank you.
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maryjk
Guest
My one child is a miracle. I was blessed to have one, and he was 9 weeks early.
Someone asks, Why not more? I answer that it is none of their dang business.
Someone that knows me well enough to ask, why not, knows me well enough to know the answer. They wouldn’t have to say they are sorry. Nor do they have to ask.
The problem seems to be that anyone that does not have lots of kids, you assume that they use contraception. NFP works. Very well.
Thankfully the priests that have come across don’t make that assumption.
Tis_Bearself
Patron
And let’s not even get into the fact that a couple may be having personal health issues that impact their ability to conceive, or even to have sex, and they don’t wish to share that with total strangers in the congregation, or even with their friends, and sometimes not even with their own relatives.
People really need to just butt out of their neighbors’ childbearing business.
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DeniseNY
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Why would you think this is standard procedure?
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