How do priests advance up the hiearchy

[kestrel36]

Thanks Bigam,

Its those special designations that I am having a hard time finding out about. Most websites Ive visited mentioned cardinals and monsignors but have little to say in how they fit in. So it appears that there are bishops, priests, and deacons with the other designations being given as a signifier to a special role.

 

[Hesychios]

… I do not know if that would actually “work” in real life, at least nowadays(remember, though, that aristocratic connections used to be an asset for priests, as evidenced by all of the Medici in high position)…

The Medici were not, strictly speaking, of the nobility (at least not at first, later of course they had titles and were to be seen in the best places all over Europe).

The Medici were more than anything else, bankers. They seem to have gotten their start in church politics by financing the anti-Pope John XXIII, a lucrative arrangement.

There were only two Medici Popes.

Other Italian noble families of note which had many Cardinals hats and more than one member as bishop of the See of Rome:

Orsini, Colonna, Gaetano, Ottaviano, Tusculani

John XIV was imperial chancellor to Emperor Otto II, so we can see the political connection in play as well. Pope Gregory V was a cousin of Otto III and a great grandson of the emperor Otto the Great.

Theophylact controlled the Papal appointments for a time, a son of his made the grade and got the chair later.

Benedict IX sold the Papacy to his successor.

 

[Young_Thinker]

The Medici were not, strictly speaking, of the nobility (at least not at first, later of course they had titles and were to be seen in the best places all over Europe).

The Medici were more than anything else, bankers. They seem to have gotten their start in church politics by financing the anti-Pope John XXIII, a lucrative arrangement.

There were only two Medici Popes.

Other Italian noble families of note which had many Cardinals hats and more than one member as bishop of the See of Rome:

Orsini, Colonna, Gaetano, Ottaviano, Tusculani

John XIV was imperial chancellor to Emperor Otto II, so we can see the political connection in play as well. Pope Gregory V was a cousin of Otto III and a great grandson of the emperor Otto the Great.

Theophylact controlled the Papal appointments for a time, a son of his made the grade and got the chair later.

Benedict IX sold the Papacy to his successor.

All right. As for the Medici, I thought that there were 3 Popes(the last being Leo X), and there were also a no. of cardinals in that family.

 

[Young_Thinker]

All right. As for the Medici, I thought that there were 3 Popes(the last being Leo X), and there were also a no. of cardinals in that family.

I meant Leo XI(reigned 1605); Leo X, Clement VII, and Leo XI, the first two of whom were relative young pontiffs.

 

[Topaz1128]

The short answer is, God picks them.

The long answer is, when a bishop dies or retires, a list of good candidates is prepared by somebody close to that situation, along with a list of what that place needs (Usually what they call a Papal Nuncio, essentially an ambassador. So The U.S. has a Papal Nuncio, as does Canada, etc.) That list is then sent to a commitee in the Vatican, who look at the needs of the place, and the backgrounds of the suggested people, and choose one person. That suggestion is then given to the Pope, who can either okay their pick, or choose any confirmed male catholic he thinks is a good choice (generally, he just okays the pick). That person is then notified, and will be ordained a Bishop.

Then for positions that are higher than bishop, they are chosen by the Pope, similarly, based on their merits and the needs of the position. A Bishop with a background in Canon Law is likely to be chosen for the judicial positions, while one with a background in theology will be chosen for a position which involves deciding doctrine.

The Pope is elected by the college of Cardinals (who were chosen by previous Popes). It essentially a majority vote. There is no (at least official) campaigning. People certainly don’t run for the office, although others may try and convince each other to vote a particular person. Again it could be anybody, but they usually elect a Cardinal (because they are experienced with how the whole system works)

The reason why some advance and others don’t can be attributed in part to shear luck. Maybe as a priest you were “lucky” and were assigned to a special position which got you name out there (rector/president of a Seminary, on a special advisory board, etc.) which got you recognized by the Nuncio. Maybe you were “unlucky” and just worked at parishes, while this is less likely to get you known around the country, this is where most bishops come from, Nuncio’s often ask Bishops if they have/know any good priests.

It is certainly nothing to feel bad about if you remain a priest your whole life, I once asked a Bishop what he missed most about being just a parish priest. His answer, “spending time with the people”. Being Bishop is a lot of paperwork and advising, and not a lot of personal time spent with the people. My Bishop is looking forward to his retirement later this year, so that he can return to Peru where he was a missionary for many years before becoming a Bishop.

Thank you for the info. I am new and was wondering the same thing.

 

[Layman]

The long answer is, when a bishop dies or retires, a list of good candidates is prepared by somebody close to that situation, along with a list of what that place needs (Usually what they call a Papal Nuncio, essentially an ambassador.

Then I guess it’s all down to who writes that list. In the UK I’ve heard mention of a phenomenon called ‘The Magic Circle’. If you’re in, preferment is much more likely, I think. Dunno how it works or if it exists.

Could just be a relgious example of an human sociological phenomenon: the in crowd (hums Roxy Music’s ‘The In Crowd’).

 

[Hesychios]

Then I guess it’s all down to who writes that list. In the UK I’ve heard mention of a phenomenon called ‘The Magic Circle’. If you’re in, preferment is much more likely, I think. Dunno how it works or if it exists.

Could just be a relgious example of an human sociological phenomenon: the in crowd (hums Roxy Music’s ‘The In Crowd’).

This is a common phenomenon in business and government too.

Every organization has to cultivate it’s next generation of leaders. Usually it is not possible to wait for good men to ‘rise from the shop floor’, so methods are employed to cull the herd arbitrarily. There is no guarantee that a man with very good grades from a very good school will be a better bishop, but that is the means the church has settled upon, right or wrong.

I used to think of it as “which door one gets hired through”. Graduates of very prestigious schools can get a juicy job from the beginning, as understudies of important managers. Once inside of “Corporate” (of the headquarters), a lot of important people get to know them and they get to know a lot of important people.

Recommendations for promotion are easier to get when one is already known, and they can put a face to the name (or know the candidates’ family).

There is nothing shameful or wrong about desiring a promotion, provided it is in the spirit of service, not self aggrandizement. However I think that many of our greatest saints of early days (and sometimes seen these days) were men who were both holy and did not desire the prestige and power of a rise through the church ranks.

Some men (like Saint Augustine for example) had to be cajoled into it.

Saint John Chrysostom did say " the road to hell is paved with the skulls of bishops". And he too was a bishop, so he might know something about that

 

[Bbigam]

Thanks Bigam,

Its those special designations that I am having a hard time finding out about. Most websites Ive visited mentioned cardinals and monsignors but have little to say in how they fit in. So it appears that there are bishops, priests, and deacons with the other designations being given as a signifier to a special role.

Yeah, it gets confusing. I haven’t quite figured out Monsignor myself. I think it’s used differently as an honorific in different countries.

Cardinal, on the other hand, is a pretty big deal and they are chosen specifically by the Pope. It seems that certain high profile positions in the Church generally come with a Cardinalate. These are, for example, heads of Vatican Congregations and Archbishops of some really major cities. But the Pope can appoint any bishop a cardinal (once in a while, a priest is a cardinal). They’re kind of like the nobility of the Church.

 

[Young_Thinker]

Jesuits, however, are required to take a vow not to seek high office, whether within the general Church or their own order. If they are to be “promoted,” it has to be forced upon them, so to speak. Obviously, not too many of them rise very far. Yet, one Jesuit, St. Robert Bellarmine, almost was elected Pope. I thought about joining the Society of Jesus, but that particular vow as well as the fact that full priestly profession among Jesuits involves a very long formation made me think otherwise. That is too bad because I feel that I have a lot in common with their charism(i.e. an Ultramontane who loves science and other learning yet wants to be a “good” priest).

 

[Hesychios]

Jesuits, however, are required to take a vow not to seek high office, whether within the general Church or their own order. If they are to be “promoted,” it has to be forced upon them, so to speak. Obviously, not too many of them rise very far. Yet, one Jesuit, St. Robert Bellarmine, almost was elected Pope.

Have you seen the De Niro movie “The Mission” ? It is one of my all time favorites.

I believe (I could be wrong about this) that in those days Jesuits who were made bishops were no longer to be considered Jesuits.

I thought about joining the Society of Jesus, but that particular vow as well as the fact that full priestly profession among Jesuits involves a very long formation made me think otherwise. That is too bad because I feel that I have a lot in common with their charism(i.e. an Ultramontane who loves science and other learning yet wants to be a “good” priest).

Like Teilhard de Chardin?

 

[Young_Thinker]

Have you seen the De Niro movie “The Mission” ? It is one of my all time favorites.

I believe (I could be wrong about this) that in those days Jesuits who were made bishops were no longer to be considered Jesuits.
Like Teilhard de Chardin?

] Yes, in a way, I guess that I am like P`ere Teilhard de Chardin. Unfortunately, I have not watched that film, but San Roberto Bellarmine lived during the High Renaissance. From what I know, a Jesuit can become a bishop if(and only if) the Pope insists upon his consecration(after the Jesuit “reminds” the Holy Father of his vow). Other than becoming a bishop, I think that a Jesuit can rise if ordered to by the Superior-General.

 

[davinpa]

] Yes, in a way, I guess that I am like P`ere Teilhard de Chardin. Unfortunately, I have not watched that film, but San Roberto Bellarmine lived during the High Renaissance. From what I know, a Jesuit can become a bishop if(and only if) the Pope insists upon his consecration(after the Jesuit “reminds” the Holy Father of his vow). Other than becoming a bishop, I think that a Jesuit can rise if ordered to by the Superior-General.

You might also want to take note though, that the famous “fourth vow” of the Jesuits is “absolute obedience to the pope, no matter what”

 

[Young_Thinker]

You might also want to take note though, that the famous “fourth vow” of the Jesuits is “absolute obedience to the pope, no matter what”

Yes, but that would naturally go along with my Ultramontane tendencies. Thank you for mentioning it, though.

 

[Young_Thinker]

However, I have the impression that even though there are a lot more cardinals than there were a century ago, it is more difficult to become one, even if you are Italian. At the same time, retirement-ages for residential bishops(they have to send a letter of resignation to the Pope when they are 75, though he does not always accept it) and cardinals(they cannot vote after the age of 80). Is it because the “pool” of potential candidates around the world has risen? For instance, I think that the youngest living cardinal is in his late fifties.

 

[Young_Thinker]

As a side-note, the last Pope so far to have come from a titled family was Benedict XV(Giacomo della Chiesa, whose father was a marchese), while Pius XII(Eugenio Pacelli) was a Roman patrician. Neither of them (both were diplomats) really rose that quickly, while Leo XIII(Conte Giacchino Pecci) had become a bishop at the approx. age of 36 and a cardinal at 43. Puis XI(Ambrigio Ratti) was “just” a priest until his early sixties but was elected Pope at the age of 64(obviously having an unpredictable career)!

 

[Young_Thinker]

Yes, but that would naturally go along with my Ultramontane tendencies. Thank you for mentioning it, though.

To my surprise, there have been a lot of Jesuit cardinals in the past century, as according to www.fiu.edu(“Cardinals of the Holy Roman Church”). An interesting phenomenon.

 

[Young_Thinker]

As a side-note, the last Pope so far to have come from a titled family was Benedict XV(Giacomo della Chiesa, whose father was a marchese), while Pius XII(Eugenio Pacelli) was a Roman patrician. Neither of them (both were diplomats) really rose that quickly, while Leo XIII(Conte Giacchino Pecci) had become a bishop at the approx. age of 36 and a cardinal at 43. Puis XI(Ambrigio Ratti) was “just” a priest until his early sixties but was elected Pope at the age of 64(obviously having an unpredictable career)!

A minor correction: Giacchino Pecci became a bishop(specifically a titular archbishop and apostolic nuncio) when he was only 33.

 

[manualman]

I’ve always suspected that it boiled down to a combination of two ways:

1. The ‘good old boy’ method. (Probably the most common).
2. Vatican Secret Shopper method. (But maybe I read too many thriller novels…)

How cool would THAT second assignment be. Imagine the pope tells you “I need eyes and ears to help me evaluate these nominations. Here’s what I want you to do…”