How do pro-choice Protestants justify abortion biblically?

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There are some Catholics that do, too, and rather high profile ones at that. So, I’m not sure where the shock comes from.
HI Jon, it’s been a long time since we last communicated, good to see you are still here. Although your statement above may be true, those individuals are wrong and as we all know abortion is not in keeping with the teachings of the Church. Peace.
 
The sad thing is, most Protestant couples (and most Catholic couples, for that matter) are unknowingly aborting their own babies by using hormonal contraception (ie: the birth control pill). Hormonal contraception works in three ways:
  1. It prevents ovulation, most of the time. In case it fails, it also does two other things:
  2. Thickens cervical mucus to prevent sperm from entering.
  3. Thins the lining of the uterus, so that if the first two modes of action fail, and conception does occur, the newly-conceived baby won’t implant in the uterus, and will die.
The third mode of action is an abortion, since it works after conception has occurred, and causes the death of a new human organism. The mother doesn’t even notice it when it happens, because the dead embryo gets flushed out of her system when she has her period.

You can read about the three modes of action of hormonal contraception here: webmd.com/sex/birth-control/birth-control-pills

I would also recommend that those forum members who use the pill and other hormonal methods read the product info insert that comes with each pack of pills. It usually mentions these three modes of action.
 
The sad thing is, most Protestant couples (and most Catholic couples, for that matter) are unknowingly aborting their own babies by using hormonal contraception (ie: the birth control pill). Hormonal contraception works in three ways:
  1. It prevents ovulation, most of the time. In case it fails, it also does two other things:
  2. Thickens cervical mucus to prevent sperm from entering.
  3. Thins the lining of the uterus, so that if the first two modes of action fail, and conception does occur, the newly-conceived baby won’t implant in the uterus, and will die.
The third mode of action is an abortion, since it works after conception has occurred, and causes the death of a new human organism. The mother doesn’t even notice it when it happens, because the dead embryo gets flushed out of her system when she has her period.

You can read about the three modes of action of hormonal contraception here: webmd.com/sex/birth-control/birth-control-pills

I would also recommend that those forum members who use the pill and other hormonal methods read the product info insert that comes with each pack of pills. It usually mentions these three modes of action.
Does coitus interruptus qualify as abortion? Does douching with a chemical after coitus qualify as abortion? Does using ergot qualify as abortion? Does wearing a condom qualify as abortion? Does wearing a diaphragm qualify as abortion?
 
Does coitus interruptus qualify as abortion? Does douching with a chemical after coitus qualify as abortion? Does using ergot qualify as abortion? Does wearing a condom qualify as abortion? Does wearing a diaphragm qualify as abortion?
None of those are abortions if no new life is created.

Also, could you please answer the question regarding a toddler being a “finished product”? How is it that you have decided that he is finished but a fetus is not?

When do you believe we become “finished products”?
 
HI Jon, it’s been a long time since we last communicated, good to see you are still here. Although your statement above may be true, those individuals are wrong and as we all know abortion is not in keeping with the teachings of the Church. Peace.
Hi Wm. Good to see you again.

Agreed!

Jon
 
The difference is that the law prohibits killing a living breathing human. ** The toddler is the finished product and not the beginning of the formation of a human.** Supposedly it also has a soul. If custody of the toddler remains with the unfit mother, and the child becomes a basket case because of it, wouldn’t it be better to have terminated the pregnancy rather than let a child come into the world under miserable conditions?

So far, the law says nothing about killing an embryo. Embryos are killed everyday and nobody does anything about it. A living breathing human has not yet been formed upon fertilization of an egg. Supposedly it does not yet have a soul. Also, if a fertilized egg is somehow able to thrive after it has been removed from the womb, is this an abortion? What about surrogate mothers?

Also, contraception prevents the joining of a sperm cell with an egg cell. The potential human is prevented from starting as an embryo by mechanical or chemical means. What is the difference between preventing fertilization and removing a fertilized egg?
Apparently, the response to the bolded is, “not yet”, and not everybody believes a toddler should be afforded the same status as a human being.

jme.bmj.com/content/early/2012/03/01/medethics-2011-100411.short

Jon
 
None of those are abortions if no new life is created.

Also, could you please answer the question regarding a toddler being a “finished product”? How is it that you have decided that he is finished but a fetus is not?

When do you believe we become “finished products”?
Life exists in the egg cell. Life exists in the sperm cell. A sperm cell lives on sugar which allows it have enough energy to reach and penetrate the egg cell. Once the haploid sperm cell and egg cell merge their DNA, the egg cell becomes diploid. These are alternate forms of life of humans as well as vertebrates.

This is analogous to pollen landing on the stigma of a flower. Both pollen and the ovule are alive. When pollen lands on the stigma it starts growing within 2-3 minutes, extending long filaments called pollen tubes to reach the ovule. Within an hour the ovule is fertilized. If the ovule matures to become a seed, it may or may not germinate to become a new plant. Whether it stays a seed or turns into a plant, it is still alive.

So to say that haploid cells are dead and diploid cells are alive does not reflect the actual way that life reproduces.
 
Life exists in the egg cell. Life exists in the sperm cell. A sperm cell lives on sugar which allows it have enough energy to reach and penetrate the egg cell. Once the haploid sperm cell and egg cell merge their DNA, the egg cell becomes diploid. These are alternate forms of life of humans as well as vertebrates.

This is analogous to pollen landing on the stigma of a flower. Both pollen and the ovule are alive. When pollen lands on the stigma it starts growing within 2-3 minutes, extending long filaments called pollen tubes to reach the ovule. Within an hour the ovule is fertilized. If the ovule matures to become a seed, it may or may not germinate to become a new plant. Whether it stays a seed or turns into a plant, it is still alive.

So to say that haploid cells are dead and diploid cells are alive does not reflect the actual way that life reproduces.
Could you please answer the question? When do you believe we become “finished products”?

And what is the ontological difference between the life that is not a finished product 10 seconds before it becomes the finished product and after it becomes one?
 
None of those are abortions if no new life is created.

Also, could you please answer the question regarding a toddler being a “finished product”? How is it that you have decided that he is finished but a fetus is not?

When do you believe we become “finished products”?
Actually ergot is used as a morning after treatment. The woman has no way to determine that a morning after drug is killing an embryo. If no fertilization takes place, no embryo is killed. In other words, without knowing for sure, this can be interpreted as a preventative measure.

Fertilization takes place in the Fallopian tube. Thus if failure of implantation of the embryo in the placenta happens, then how is anyone going to know whether some malfunction occurred in the implantation process. Who knows, maybe the woman was passed out from alcohol, and this interfered with implantation?

By “finished product”, I refer to the conversion of the fetus to a fully formed baby able to exist without being attached to its mother. After this happens, nothing the mother does to her own body can affect the health of the baby, except of course if she nurses her new baby. If the baby is on formula, the baby is physiologically separate from its mother.
 
Could you please answer the question? When do you believe we become “finished products”?

And what is the ontological difference between the life that is not a finished product 10 seconds before it becomes the finished product and after it becomes one?
When they do #2 in the potty 😉
 
Actually ergot is used as a morning after treatment. The woman has no way to determine that a morning after drug is killing an embryo. If no fertilization takes place, no embryo is killed. In other words, without knowing for sure, this can be interpreted as a preventative measure.
Would you shoot into a forest if you were a hunter, “without knowing for sure” that the shadow you saw wasn’t a human being?

Yes, or no?
 
Would you shoot into a forest if you were a hunter, “without knowing for sure” that the shadow you saw wasn’t a human being?

Yes, or no?
I personally do not use guns. But if I took a defensive posture and saw a shadow that I was afraid of, and I let fear take over, I probably would shoot first. This happens occasionally with hunters who do not wear orange-colored jackets. One option is based on uncertainty with a fear element. Not knowing for sure prevents us from making wise decisions based on complete knowledge. Add the fear element, and reflex takes over.

Would you refrain from driving your car at night because you might accidentally hit a human?
 
I personally do not use guns. But if I took a defensive posture and saw a shadow that I was afraid of, and I let fear take over, I probably would shoot first. This happens occasionally with hunters who do not wear orange-colored jackets. One option is based on uncertainty with a fear element. Not knowing for sure prevents us from making wise decisions based on complete knowledge. Add the fear element, and reflex takes over.
So if your son were walking in the woods, and a hunter who really wasn’t sure that the woods was clear of people shot into it, and your son, God forbid, were killed, you wouldn’t blame the hunter for not erring on the side of caution?
Would you refrain from driving your car at night because you might accidentally hit a human?
You can better believe that if I wasn’t sure that there wasn’t a person sitting out on the road, I wouldn’t be driving on it.

You would?

Since you’re unsure if the shadow is a person or not, you might as well run it over? Really?
 
Could you please answer the question? When do you believe we become “finished products”?

And what is the ontological difference between the life that is not a finished product 10 seconds before it becomes the finished product and after it becomes one?
nmgauss? This is an important question.

Please answer.
 
I personally do not use guns. But if I took a defensive posture and saw a shadow that I was afraid of, and I let fear take over, I probably would shoot first. This happens occasionally with hunters who do not wear orange-colored jackets. One option is based on uncertainty with a fear element. Not knowing for sure prevents us from making wise decisions based on complete knowledge. Add the fear element, and reflex takes over.

Would you refrain from driving your car at night because you might accidentally hit a human?
The posture of a hunter is not a defensive posture, but an offensive posture. And one had better know darn well the prey at which they are shooting. One must not just be aware of humans in the area, but one must be able to determine the species, the sex and even the relative age of the animal in many circumstances before a shot is fired. The point is that no one fires blindly without knowing what is at the other end of the bullet unless one is completely irresponsible. Why? Because a life is at stake and we don’t want to take any chances, even if that chance is only 1%.

But you unknowingly make a cogent point. Pregnancy has been transformed into something to defend against, when in times past it was seen as a blessing, something desired. Pregnancy is now treated as a disease and the “cure” is specifically designed to destroy the life inside the mother. That is not health care. It is simply a death sentence imposed by the strong against the weak and defenseless for no other reason, in the great majority of the cases, than the convenience of one or more of the parents. The crime of killing one’s own child is now seen as one’s “right”.

As for your analogy of one driving at night, I, like any other responsible human being would take every precaution not to hurt or kill another person. In the case of an abortion supporter, the analogy would be one getting in their car and driving without precaution or regard for life under the false assumption that the shadow one sees crossing the road is probably not human. They are willing to play the odds at the cost of a human life.
 
It looks like the original intent of the thread has taken life in another direction. I was hoping to gather (name removed by moderator)uts on biblical justification for abortion. Unfortunately, the results have been meager. We must therefore conclude that there is NO justification for abortion in the Bible. If there is, anyone, please do step up and declare your evidence.

I will be generous and expand it to extra-biblical sources to include Early Church Fathers, Holy Traditions. I will also include the Reformation Fathers, Luther, Calvin etc. Did any of these ever support abortion in their writings? If none of the Reformation Fathers condone abortion, then how did pro-choice churches and on whose authority permit abortion?

The post now has wandered to justifying abortion in non-biblical ways. Life/death is an important topic that stir strong emotions in everyone. My question is whether we should start another thread to discuss other abortion matters or should we expand the existing thread to accommodate additional (name removed by moderator)uts?
 
We must therefore conclude that there is NO justification for abortion in the Bible. If there is, anyone, please do step up and declare your evidence.
God’s law sometimes requires the execution (by burning to death) of pregnant women.
Tamar thy daughter in law hath played the harlot; and also, behold, she is with child by whoredom. And Judah said, Bring her forth, and let her be burnt. – Genesis 38:24

Give them, O LORD: what wilt thou give? give them a miscarrying womb and dry breasts. – Hosea 9:14

Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up. – Hosea 13:16

**God sometimes causes abortions by cursing unfaithful wives. **
The priest shall say unto the woman, The LORD make thee a curse and an oath among thy people, when the LORD doth make thy thigh to rot, and thy belly to swell. And this water that causeth the curse shall go into thy bowels, to make thy belly to swell, and thy thigh to rot: And the woman shall say, Amen, amen. …
And when he hath made her to drink the water, then it shall come to pass, that, if she be defiled, and have done trespass against her husband, that the water that causeth the curse shall enter into her, and become bitter, and her belly shall swell, and her thigh shall rot: and the woman shall be a curse among her people. And if the woman be not defiled, but be clean; then she shall be free, and shall conceive seed. – Numbers 5:21-21, 27-28
 
God’s law sometimes requires the execution (by burning to death) of pregnant women.
Tamar thy daughter in law hath played the harlot; and also, behold, she is with child by whoredom. And Judah said, Bring her forth, and let her be burnt. – Genesis 38:24
What is it in the passage that makes you think this was God’s law?
 
Interesting interpretation in the following website:
huffingtonpost.com/rick-lowery-phd/abortion-what-the-bible-says-and-doesnt-say_b_1856049.html

Genesis 2:7 is clearest. The first human became a “living being” (nefesh hayah, “a living breath”) when God blew into its nostrils and it started to breathe. Human life begins when you start breathing, biblical writers thought. It ends when you stop. That’s why the Hebrew word often translated “spirit” (ruah) – “life force” might be a better translation – literally means “wind” or “breath.”

But what about babies in the womb?

It’s hard to ask biblical texts the modern question, “when does human life begin?” because the Bible has a very different understanding of human reproduction. Biblical writers don’t talk about sperm fertilizing eggs. They talk about male “seed” planted in fertile female ground. Just as a seed becomes a plant when it emerges from the ground, so too a man’s planted seed becomes another human being when it emerges from the womb.

Exodus 21:22-25 describes a case where a pregnant woman jumps into a fight between her husband and another man and suffers injuries that cause her to miscarry.
The miscarriage is treated as property loss, not murder. The assailant must pay a fine to the husband. The law of a life for a life does not apply. The fetus is important, but it’s not human life in the same way the pregnant woman is.

For the Bible, that’s when a child is born and starts breathing. For many of us today, it’s when a fetus becomes “viable” – somewhere between 21 and 27 weeks into the pregnancy, thanks to our amazing medical technology.

If something goes wrong late in the pregnancy and the fetus dies, we call it “still birth” and, by law, issue a death certificate.

If the pregnancy ends early on, we call it “miscarriage.” It’s traumatic, a terrible loss, but most of us think of it differently than we think of a still birth. We don’t require death certificates for miscarriages.

Recognizing this difference, the Supreme Court in Roe v. Wade created the “trimester” system to sort through the legal implications of the constitutional “right to privacy” they said we all have as Americans.

The justices ruled that the early and late stages of pregnancy are morally and legally distinct.

Early on, in the “first trimester,” the embryo undeniably is human life, but it’s not “a human being” in the normal sense of the term. At this stage of pregnancy, a woman’s right to privacy trumps any responsibility the state might have to protect the embryo by interfering with the woman’s decision to terminate the pregnancy.

Late in the pregnancy, certainly by the “third trimester,” however, the child has reached a stage of development that changes its moral and legal status. To protect the rights of the viable fetus, states can put serious limits on a woman’s right to abortion, though they must continue to respect her right to self-defense, to terminate the pregnancy to save her own life or prevent serious injury.

In the ambiguous middle of the pregnancy, the “second trimester,” the state has to balance the right to life of the unborn with the right to privacy of the woman, a balance that continues to tip toward the fetus as the pregnancy progresses. In this stage, our constantly improving medical technology plays an important role in the moral-legal equation.

Abortion is illegal in most states once the fetus is viable (normally 24 weeks into the pregnancy), unless it’s necessary to save the life of the mother or prevent serious physical or mental harm.

I think the moral reasoning of Roe and subsequent Supreme Court decisions reflects what many of us actually think: the moral status of the fetus changes over the course of the pregnancy.

Advances in medical technology affect our opinions about when exactly the line is crossed. But most of us think there’s a difference between a recently fertilized egg and a late-term unborn child.

The moral view that underlies Roe v. Wade – that a line is crossed when a fetus becomes “viable” – seems most plausible, morally defensible, and consistent with the spirit of the biblical view.
 
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